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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2005
    Location
    Georgia
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    519

    Question what do you think?

    One thing I have found with my adult riders is that there is SO much more baggage that goes into the ring with them at shows than with the kids. I think it's just the way life ends up. So getting emotional is probably for a whole bunch of things, not just the poor ride. I try to keep that in mind when dealing with adults.

    For example, I had one rider whose husband would call her non-stop at the show b/c he wanted to know when she would be done (they don't call it the "hurry-up-and-wait" show for nothing, buddy!). That made her very stressed. She also felt this overwhelming pressure to bring home the ribbons to "prove" to hubby that this wasn't a waste of time or money. Although she self-sabotaged time after time again, I tried to be patient and focus on our strengths, no matter how bad the round.

    But after our last show together (where she did everything we talked about NOT doing...leaned forward & right, pulled the right rein, and he ran left...for the 1000th time), I knew we needed to have a HUGE talk. But I wanted to wait until after the show when we were at home; right then my priority was to get him over the jumps and get her confidence back for her flat.

    The irony, however, was that the first thing she said after leaving the ring was "I knew I should have made you do the warm-up round for me" (and it was in that "it's all your fault" tone of voice). I usually bite my tounge, but I couldn't help it and responded calmly and rationally: "if you rode as poorly as you did right then, I could have done 10 warm-ups and you still would have fallen off."

    She left my program 60 days later.

    So what do you make of that? If you were ring side, would you think I was the rude one?



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,404

    Default Dr. Jeckell/Mr. Hyde?

    I have seen my own trainer absolutely shred someone who is continuing to make the same mistake over and over in a lesson (generally from not listening) or even when schooling the night before the show. But at the show itself, she goes out of her way NOT to make a bad situation worse for anyone by being critical. She always praises something when you come out of the ring, even if the only thing you did right was find the in-gate. She picks ONE thing for you to think about changing or improving in your next round (this must be hard for her, when I come out having done about 10 things wrong. But she never says so at the show).

    On the other hand, I think about another trainer I'v seen at a lot of shows. I understand she is a sweet person and her riders love her and talk about how pleasant lessons with her are. But I'd not put up with the barrage of criticism at the shows! When a rider has a bad round - or, frankly, just an average round - she will berate them from the minute they come out until they go back in for their next round.
    Incredible Invisible



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2000
    Location
    Crown Point, IN
    Posts
    3,749

    Default

    I realize that I can be a bit of a harda** sometimes. Its my personality, horses or not. (ask my husband, haha) My customers spend thousands of dollars to show and I dont think it does anyone any good to come out of the ring to "well, you stopped at the one jump, added 17 strides in the other, fell off out of the ring, remount was good, jumped the one oxer backwards, but it was GREAT!!!! other than that." I take little local kids to some 4H type stuff when I'm not going out of town and I'm glad to. They're there to have fun and dont want to put a lot of time or effort into it and and thats fine- if they want to stay at that level. If you want to go to a rated show, dont go with me and just be happy to get around without falling off. At that level thats not what its about anymore and if someone taught you to spend $1500 a weekend just to "get around" and thats your only goal, you're better off with another trainer because I dont waste my time with mediocre. You dont have to have the fanciest horse, I dont ask that you buy all your blankets and trunks in my colors or buy only certain brands of tack and clothing, but I do ask that you come to the ring with a clean, professional looking horse and clothing/tack, ready to give it everything you've got, every single time.

    Not that I dont expect mistakes. Its OK to fall off, add, chip, go off course, whatever... but the lack of desire to get better so you dont do it so often is what confuses me. I'm the first one in the barn in the morning, the last one to leave every night. I was that way as a junior, that way as an amateur, and I remain that way as a professional. I'm not kidding around. I wanted it bad then, and I want it even worse now. If you want to practice every day, I'll be there. I'll try my hardest to find you extra horses to ride so you can get better. If you dont want to play with the big boys? Fine. We'll do local stuff and be happy. If you do though, you better be ready to give it the effort it needs. I'm here to be competitive. My program is certainly not for everyone and I recognize it, just as I never learned anything from anyone who never had anything to say other than "oh that was nice" or "well, it could have been better." If I were a quarterback in the NFL ( ) and I played like crap because I stayed out drinking the night before and didnt know what day it was when I showed up.. I dont expect to be told "hey son, its ok, I know you didnt actually touch the ball the entire game but you know, your uniform was really clean and hey- dont the new lines they painted on the field look great?" because what the hell good does that do anyone?

    I do always try my hardest to point out something really good that someone did in a round, no matter how bad it was. Especially since my customers are all pretty hard on themselves because generally they want it too. I cant imagine ripping on someone who was crying.. thats just inhuman. I dont do attitude though, ever.. not in any circumstance or for any reason. Dissapointment is a part of the game and no one likes to lose, but save the attitude for your car on the ride home!



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec. 5, 2006
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    901

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    One thing I have found with my adult riders is that there is SO much more baggage that goes into the ring with them at shows than with the kids. I think it's just the way life ends up. So getting emotional is probably for a whole bunch of things, not just the poor ride. I try to keep that in mind when dealing with adults.

    For example, I had one rider whose husband would call her non-stop at the show b/c he wanted to know when she would be done (they don't call it the "hurry-up-and-wait" show for nothing, buddy!). That made her very stressed. She also felt this overwhelming pressure to bring home the ribbons to "prove" to hubby that this wasn't a waste of time or money. Although she self-sabotaged time after time again, I tried to be patient and focus on our strengths, no matter how bad the round.

    But after our last show together (where she did everything we talked about NOT doing...leaned forward & right, pulled the right rein, and he ran left...for the 1000th time), I knew we needed to have a HUGE talk. But I wanted to wait until after the show when we were at home; right then my priority was to get him over the jumps and get her confidence back for her flat.

    The irony, however, was that the first thing she said after leaving the ring was "I knew I should have made you do the warm-up round for me" (and it was in that "it's all your fault" tone of voice). I usually bite my tounge, but I couldn't help it and responded calmly and rationally: "if you rode as poorly as you did right then, I could have done 10 warm-ups and you still would have fallen off."

    She left my program 60 days later.

    So what do you make of that? If you were ring side, would you think I was the rude one?

    There are always going to be "those" customers. The ones that are never happy or easy to please. The ones that are always looking to shift the blame because things are so crappy elsewhere.

    I think most trainers know that getting tough with their riders should take place at home because at shows most amateurs are only going to be 75% (at best) of what their actual ability is. Save the heavy homework for home.
    Become a Posse and help keep kids on horses and off the streets.
    http://www.comptonjrposse.org/



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2007
    Posts
    671

    Default

    I agree with the comments that no one style works for every rider.

    On the other hand ... have to wonder, the "there she goes again" comments and some of the other things mentioned.... it really seems like just maybe the trainer chose to ring someone to show who just isn't ready. If it isn't ready at home, it isn't ready for the show ring - and its the trainer's job to let the rider know what is ready and what is not. No big surprise that a rider is going to make mistakes at shows - nerves, pressure, horse a little up - if they are making them at home. So, when the trainer is issuing the "there she goes again" and the "your fault again" comments loud enough to be heard publicly, I'm always tempted to mutter, "another trainer who thinks all schooling should be done while showing... what a waste of time and money..."

    Just another perspective...



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug. 20, 2004
    Location
    North East
    Posts
    2,210

    Default

    I agree with whomever said that the tears may have been the result of the anticipated lack of support from the trainer and the accompanying beratement. It sounds as though this particular rider should move on and find a trainer who is better able to meet her needs.

    I have heard several trainers talk among themselves at the ingate and belittle their clients who are in the ring. I do think they are trying to make themselves look better but they should realize it makes them look like Idiots.

    It happens all too often.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2007
    Posts
    1,320

    Default

    Rumorsfollow, while it is great that you work so hard at what you do and are very committed you must understand those that work all day to pay for the sport that pays YOUR bills. Someone like me who works 15 plus hours a day, feeds at 5:30 am because I want to know what the 14 horses in the barn look like before work and get to work at 6:30 to work until 8:30pm to get home and get in the barn for night check at 10:30pm and do hay drop to see the horses before bed and get back to the house for more work, still wants to show and hopefully do well. It is we who pay YOU to ride and train our horses or allow you to give lessons on our horses so you make money we never see.

    I certainly am using the "you" in the equivalent as a "trainer" and not you personally.

    That said, having a glass half full attitude is better but then again, I hate when trainers blame the judging when their riders don't get pinned the way they like and the trainers complain to their clients.

    I commend you for running a strict program and I do believe that juniors should adhere to a strict program but when it comes to older adults, allow us to "think" we belong to the group. Just put us in lower classes that we will win and everyone goes happy feeling better...LOL



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep. 1, 2006
    Location
    Del Mar, California
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zahena View Post
    Sadly, I sometimes think that my students prefer this method over my method. I do get frustrated, I do scream at them. I do yell "If you know you are doing it, why do you insist upon continuing?" I'll even go so far as to send them out of the ring or line-up for a minute so I don't tear them to shreds.

    Do I make them cry? Sometimes. But do I ride them so hard that when they are already visibly upset that I keep on? No. I tell them to let the bad round go, learn from it and move on.

    I personally love the abuse but mostly because I've been riding forever and I know what mistakes I make so I need someone to scream at me. I used to have a chain-smoking trainer make me work a 10 meter circle around her while she snapped a buggy whip ON me telling me how a monkey could ride my horse better. Did it push me? YOu bet.

    Does it work fore everyone? No way!

    But the visual of her smoking and lighting one cigarette off the butt of the last telling me how a monkey could ride my horse better and he'd never get his leads unless I lifted my shoulder stuck with me throw the years. And makes for a fun story.....
    I agree with you 110%
    "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    519

    Talking bracing for impact...

    Ok, I had a sweet, lighthearted response that was lost in the shuffle, so I'll just put a thought out there...

    as a client, would you want to hear from your trainer (at home, in a private conversation) that although a great rider at home, you appear to lack that "competitive mental edge" that will allow you to continue to grow and have success in the show ring?

    I am one of those riders who measures my success with personal growth and accomplishment. I could show every weekend, or never again. And most of my clients are on the same page; ironiclly, when we do show, we do very well (I think from lack of pressure on some part). So when that previous client just couldn't get past mental blocks (and it became a question of safety), I told her *nicely* that although a good rider, she wasn't a strong competitor. Perhaps we should focus on flat classes for a while to get miles and improve her focus.

    Brutally honest, I know, but the truth. Obviously she didn't agree that the "journey" is the most rewarding part as she left soon after LOL.

    ok, hit me with it!



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug. 22, 2006
    Posts
    508

    Default Cell Phone Cameras

    I think the advent of cell phone videos, cameras and the use of youtube may bring abusive training (both horse and human) to the surface. The more people see this, the less business these crummy people will have.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2007
    Posts
    671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    Ok, I had a sweet, lighthearted response that was lost in the shuffle, so I'll just put a thought out there...

    as a client, would you want to hear from your trainer (at home, in a private conversation) that although a great rider at home, you appear to lack that "competitive mental edge" that will allow you to continue to grow and have success in the show ring?

    I am one of those riders who measures my success with personal growth and accomplishment. I could show every weekend, or never again. And most of my clients are on the same page; ironiclly, when we do show, we do very well (I think from lack of pressure on some part). So when that previous client just couldn't get past mental blocks (and it became a question of safety), I told her *nicely* that although a good rider, she wasn't a strong competitor. Perhaps we should focus on flat classes for a while to get miles and improve her focus.

    Brutally honest, I know, but the truth. Obviously she didn't agree that the "journey" is the most rewarding part as she left soon after LOL.

    ok, hit me with it!
    Yes - I would and have - and then stayed and worked on it. I don't think yours was a brutal comment - especially delivered calmly and privately at home - it was exactly the kind of honest comment that I have a trainer for. As an adult, I don't want brutal but I do want honest - kudos for doing it sensitively - I would still be there



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Apr. 22, 2008
    Posts
    805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justathought View Post
    Yes - I would and have - and then stayed and worked on it. I don't think yours was a brutal comment - especially delivered calmly and privately at home - it was exactly the kind of honest comment that I have a trainer for. As an adult, I don't want brutal but I do want honest - kudos for doing it sensitively - I would still be there
    Oh, totally agree. I never mind brutal honesty. Brutal honesty is great! ...as long as it sticks with the facts, doesn't get personal, and is delivered professionally (as in, not screaming). I never mind if my trainer says things like, "That was a terrible transition! Don't just pull on the reins and flop around up there! Sit up!" What I don't want is snark or a tirade on why I'm a terrible rider/person/creature for messing up. Just tell me what to do and I promise you I'll try 110% to do it. I'm self-motivated - yelling at me does nothing to help, and only makes me discouraged.

    There's a huge difference between a brutally honest, perfectionist trainer who behaves professionally and a trainer who belittles clients (either to their faces or at the ingate) just because they can.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2008
    Location
    Scranton, PA
    Posts
    748

    Default

    When I was 8y/o I was doing the Large Children's Ponies on a large that was holy terror. He would literally being taking his feet off the ground to jump and then he'd plant them and stop....
    He belonged to my trainer and I rode him bc I was the only one with enough courage to beat the shit out of him when he did stuff like that and I was also the only one that still got back on him after he dumped me on a weekly basis.
    Sooo, looking back I think it was pretty big that I was 8 riding a large at 2'6" but whatever.
    So at shows, anything that didn't go right in my trip was automatically my fault...no matter what it was...I would come out of the ring in tears because I *knew* I was going to get screamed at for a less then perfect trip o/f. Nevermind that I'm the only one who can put your pony over 8 fences without stops...but that chip to the outside line? RAWR!!!!!
    Very scary woman, I can remember clearly coming out of the ring at Sussex Co. shaking because I didn't want to get screamed at. =/



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2000
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    8,099

    Default

    There is a VERY big difference between being *ABUSIVE* and being honest.

    There are ways to be honest and constructive and still POLITE and RESPECTFUL without blowing sunshine up someone's bum, too. Really. It just might mean that some trainers need to take a step back, a deep breath, and find a way to phrase things that doesn't involve nastiness, name-calling, or yelling and screaming. Frankly, unless someone is abusing an animal, that's inexcuseable. I don't do these things in my workplace, they ought not do them in theirs - and furthermore, to the railbirds, it DOESN'T look good.

    Abusive is not okay.



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2004
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    In my opinion, the real lack of professionalism comes when the critism crosses over to sarcastic hopelessness.

    I know when I make a mistake, and it irritates me to have a trainer who sugar coats it (that's just wasting my time and theirs, IMO). I excpect constructive critism - in a "this is what you did wrong and this is what caused it and this is how you should fix it." I also expect professionalism.

    That being said, I cannot stand trainers who talk trash about their students when they are IN THE RING! I see it all the time, as soon as the ammie goes in, the trainer is making wise cracks and comments suggesting that either the ammie is undoubtably going to make the same mistakes she always does or that she is hopeless. I think most of the trainers I see do it to be funny, or let the other trainers know that this particular student shouldn't count as one of "their" students. That bothers me to no end! IMO, I am not paying you gobs of $$ to show off your (eh hem) ego and flare for cruel humor to whoever is standing at the ingate with you. If you really and truelly think I am a hopeless case, then why in the world would I continue to pay you???



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2006
    Posts
    9,353

    Default

    I'm an adult that cries. Sorry guys.
    Most of the time it is because my horse is so honest and generous in his work that I am moved to tears. Sometimes he makes me tear up by being wonderful in a lesson, much less the show ring.

    If I ride poorly and feel like I have let him down, I feel terrible about it. I feel like I have rewarded his generosity with a bad experience that was my doing. Of course there are bigger problems in the world, and for the most part we do quite well together, but there are times where he is an innocent in the face of my incompetence and I let him down after all he has done for me. To top it off he is so damn forgiving about it that I cry some more.

    I am very fortunate that I have a trainer who is very calm and quiet-spoken, and has been since day one I showed up at that barn. My trainer's idea of yelling at me is to tell me not to spontaeneously change directions during the warm up phase of a lesson. This "yelling" is so 'loud" and "obvious" that then someone else who is schooling promptly switches directions and he says, "What are you doing? I just yelled at HER for five minutes for switching directions. Everyone needs to go the same direction in a lesson." That = him "yelling". If a horse (sometimes not mine but one he is generously letting me ride) stops because I came in on the half stride, he will say, "I'm not yelling at you, but you NEED to pick either the 4 or the 5." One day he felt he spoke too sharply (or his version of 'too sharply', anyway) to one of the grooms and went up to him later to apologize. I am not sure how many BNTs would apologize to their grooms but it means the world to me that my trainer is that kind of person.

    Maybe for some people that is not enough oomph to really motivate them, but I am already so concerned about doing right by the horse and not letting the horse down and making sure the horse has a good experience and not letting my trainer down because he is letting me ride his nice sale horses and I can't mess up because I don't want to mess up his horses and omg if I make a mistake he'll never let me ride this horse again etc etc etc that all he needs to say is half a quietly-spoken sentence and I try to get it done like my life depends on it. Honestly showing is not a 'nerves' problem for me because I feel that level of performance pressure Every Single Time I turn toward a jump. I am never "just at home" or "just hopping over" something. I never feel like I'm at home so I can just ride that line a couple times to get the hang of it or just circle and come around again- I want it flawless the first time and to be a good school for the horse if I can help it. Every jump needs to be right like it is the 8th jump in the Dixon Oval.

    Meanwhile, I had one trainer once who seemed to think I would stop taking lessons and having him do pro-rides if he gave me even the hint of a notion that I knew how to ride. Every thing he said to me was at top volume. Every single time he schooled my horse he would tell me how disappointed he was in how the horse was going and how he hadn't learned as much as he should have this week and he wasn't going as well as he should be and the horse needed more pro rides and and and. That trainer was/is/probably always will be pretty low on the totem pole so it is interesting that the BNT whose whole program is at a such a massively higher level does not feel the need to tell me every day how much I depend on him and what a small fish I am and who do I think I am entertaining the idea that I can put a decent school on a horse. Interestingly, I would say the belittling trainer had the lowest quality show program I ever rode in (by a wide margin), and that all the other trainers I have ridden with had far better programs and were much less likely to impress upon me how little I knew.

    In the end I feel very lucky to have a trainer who knows as much as he knows AND imparts that knowledge the way he imparts it, because for me instruction is massivley counter-productive if it is in the form of a verbal assault. It is always a tremendous stroke of fortune when both the knowledge AND the teaching style click with a student. I know from first hand experience how miserable the belittling approach makes me.

    If it floats other people's boats then more power to them and see you at the horse shows but it is absolutely not for me.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jan. 20, 2004
    Location
    La Habra Heights, CA
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    1,483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cita View Post
    Oh, totally agree. I never mind brutal honesty. Brutal honesty is great! ...as long as it sticks with the facts, doesn't get personal, and is delivered professionally (as in, not screaming). I never mind if my trainer says things like, "That was a terrible transition! Don't just pull on the reins and flop around up there! Sit up!" What I don't want is snark or a tirade on why I'm a terrible rider/person/creature for messing up. Just tell me what to do and I promise you I'll try 110% to do it. I'm self-motivated - yelling at me does nothing to help, and only makes me discouraged.

    There's a huge difference between a brutally honest, perfectionist trainer who behaves professionally and a trainer who belittles clients (either to their faces or at the ingate) just because they can.
    Exactly.

    Last night, I worked up the nerve to watch the video of my "what not to do" ride, the one that got me my a$$ handed to me on a platter. Not nearly as horrendous as I was led to believe. What I saw was a rider who mostly needed to sit up, shorten her reins, and get more bend going in the elbows. Nothing deserving of a painful tirade. Ouch.

    Perhaps she might have been having a bad day or something, but does that make it OK to ruin mine?
    --o0o--



  18. #58
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    Jan. 27, 2003
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    CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donkeyman View Post
    I commend you for running a strict program and I do believe that juniors should adhere to a strict program but when it comes to older adults, allow us to "think" we belong to the group. Just put us in lower classes that we will win and everyone goes happy feeling better...LOL
    Oh my. I would be soooo angry if my trainer relegated me to 'lower classes that I would win' so that I could feel better. I don't show solely to win. I show to improve, to have fun, to show-off. I don't want to rest on whatever laurels I may have and go clean up in the 2'6" hunters. I want to clean up in the A/O, if I can ever make it there. I want to win adult eq medals. I'm not some wilting flower who can't handle or doesn't want a strict program. I say Bring It On. Those juniors better watch their skinny little hinter parts because I'm going to do my best to ride just as well as they do. Or heck...even better, seeing that I have years more knowledge than they do.
    Last edited by RugBug; Jul. 22, 2008 at 01:31 PM.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2004
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    Zone 5
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    736

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    I know some people who honestly ride better with more pressure and I know some riders (mostly jrs) who need to be yelled at because otherwise they are riding in la-la land.

    The best trainers - IMHO - are the ones that adjust their style to the client. My trainer, for example, knows that I am an emotional basketcase that will cry at the drop of a hat. She really rarely yells at me - and when she does yell, I know I am doing something that is either dangerous for me or my horse or could set training back. She also knows that the schooling ring gives me ulcers - so again, unless I am really screwing up - she lets me jump as few jumps as possible and says only the minimum to keep me from getting too nervous. For others, I see her adjust her style for what they need to get them to the ring in the best shape possible.

    Personally, I don't want to be coddled at the ring. I want honest feedback during lessons or when I come out of the show ring - I don't get to ride very often because I am a working adult, so I need to learn every second possible. That said, I don't want to be screamed at when I come out of the ring - too embarrassing. And I do think that people are always watching and they form their impressions of trainers by what they see ringside.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/Diva1998

    "Reality has a liberal bias" - Jon Stewart



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2008
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    83

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    I have fired a trainer mid-lesson for abusive behavior. He was a BNT in my area and I went to train with him during the summer in college to tune up for my college equestrian team in the fall. His comments dissolved rapidly from constructive criticism to sarcastic, immature abuse--at one point he told me to go take a 20-meter circle before heading toward a vertical, I nodded once to let him know I'd heard and understood (I was halfway across the arena from him), and he screamed, "don't smile and nod like a lazy fata$$, DO IT!" (I'm a size 4 and was the same size then as well...far cry from fat, and that would've been uncalled for even if I was heavier.)

    I very calmly halted, dismounted, took care of the horse, paid him for that lesson, and informed him that I would not be returning, as I had no intention of spending my hard-earned (and in college, very scarce) money just to be abused.

    Over the years I've run into 3 other former students of his who did pretty much the same thing. His farm went out of business a couple of years ago and the area is now a subdivision.



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