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  1. #41
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    Horses and cattle exist very well together as they do with other wild browsers. Cattle tear up water holes far worse than horses do.

    By the BLM's own press releases there are now more horses IN captivity than out, some 33,000 in pens compared to 27,000 out. They have eliminated horses from many ranges that were designated wild horse ranches (No I don't know the names, they said it not I) and their "management" has resulted in numbers left on other ranges too low for genetic survival. They want to remove all but 90 horses from Cloud's range (which looks too rough and barren for any sheep or cattle) when the bare minimum for genetic variability is 150.

    Culling should be just that, taking off inferior animals and animals that are sick or injured. The seem instead to pick horses at random without regard to conformation, size, color, health or age (important in animals that live in social groups). There are plenty of predators in Cloud's range. Cougar, bear as well as natural hazards and tough winters that cull the very old and those born out of season as has been happening with the birth control implants.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.



  2. #42
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    No - there are not "plenty" of predators. If there were plenty of predators there would not be excess prey species.

    The number of carnivorous predators required to keep an ecosystem in balance is too high for humans to tolerate.

    That's one of the problems. People don't want to live with the number of predators required to keep prey species in sustainable numbers.

    Even out on these enormous ranges; carnivorous predators will strike out and seek new territory. And that territory is likely to be closer to human populations.

    This one of the problems land managers have to deal with, and one of the reasons prey species are proliferating in so many parts of the country. While YOU may not have a problem with large numbers of carnivorous predators, the people affected by those predators may indeed object to their presence. Because predators look for prey - and when their preferred prey isn't handy they'll look for something else.

    So again - there is a demonstration that none of you actually know what you're talking about.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Swan View Post
    No - there are not "plenty" of predators. If there were plenty of predators there would not be excess prey species.

    The number of carnivorous predators required to keep an ecosystem in balance is too high for humans to tolerate.

    That's one of the problems. People don't want to live with the number of predators required to keep prey species in sustainable numbers.

    Even out on these enormous ranges; carnivorous predators will strike out and seek new territory. And that territory is likely to be closer to human populations.

    This one of the problems land managers have to deal with, and one of the reasons prey species are proliferating in so many parts of the country. While YOU may not have a problem with large numbers of carnivorous predators, the people affected by those predators may indeed object to their presence. Because predators look for prey - and when their preferred prey isn't handy they'll look for something else.

    So again - there is a demonstration that none of you actually know what you're talking about.

    The excess of prey species is seriously in debate at least in that management area.
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.



  4. #44
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    Uh - in the Pryors? I don't think so.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lori B View Post
    But it wouldn't occur to me to treat you like an uppity ape in the jungle. I have not dictated anything, I have suggested that the current set of rules, to the extent that I understand them, are driven by the interests of folks who get to pay less than market rates to run cattle on publicly owned lands, and that reconsidering the prices paid for using this land that is publicly owned and reconsidering whether culling mustangs will solve the overgrazing problems or damage done by drought, might be in order. For having such temerity, I get slammed and slammed hard. Ordinarily I find you a very thoughtful and considerate poster, but when anyone wants to question ranching practices or slaughter, that seems to go out the window.

    And unless you want to stand next to the Chesapeake Bay and shovel chicken$hit into it with a backhoe, I'm quite happy to hear what you have to say about improving our water quality. That is where we differ, kemosabe.
    Ok, so if I understand you correctly, you are not objecting to what I am saying about this topic, but about the way it sounds to you.

    I will try to be more polite, I promise.

    I would not presume to say anything about what needs to be done for the Chesapeake Bay's ecological health, although I have heard thru the grapevine that it is considered one of the great successes, that is has been cleaned much faster than they expected it would happen and it is improving by leaps and bounds.

    If I were to intent to weight in on that situation, I would first learn all I could about it, consult with the people doing the work, ask many questions.
    I probably would still not say anything, by then having realized that the problem was beyond the scope of someone just coming across it to really have a meaningful input on what needs to be done.

    That is what is lacking in these feral horse discussions, where anyone that has an interest in horses automatically thinks it knows what the people working on feral horse management need to do, just because it involves horses.

    We did have one ranch horse that was until five a feral stallion.
    He made a super great ranch horse, but he had, according to our vet, rickets, that expressed themselves the most on his knees, that were questionable all his life.
    Growing wild is not always such a great place for a horse, especially when their ranges are going thru droughts.
    In the wild, he would not have made ot to old age, being crippled long before, if he had to forage hard.
    Domesticated, we could work him as he needed and had good, carefully stocked pastures, where there was always grass to eat, not being overrun with grazers.
    He had always food and water in front of him, was retired at 16 and lived to 20, way past what our vet thought he make it on those bum knees.

    Sure feral horses make good horses for some tasks, but not that many and for so many others, we have horses bred for that, that are better suited for it.
    Feral horses have a very restricted market.
    The government is raising too many of them for symbols, to adopt to those that may want to own one and for the carrying capacity of the ranges designated for them by law.

    As the managers the BLM and other government agencies are, we need to demand that they manage the feral horses and LET them do it.
    In today's political environment, with all those groups with vested interest in those horse's situations, for their own not always very clear if not down right questionable motives, the BLM can't do anything without someone objecting, no matter what they do.

    As they used to say, "what a way to run a railroad".



  6. #46
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    I just wathced "Cloud" on Nature again this week . The first thing that struck me was that most of the mustangs were what we call "rare colors". That was odd, I thought.

    Later in the show Cloud was rounded up, and then released becuase he was a good color. No ther reason. The BLM has influenced the herds based on color only. I'm not sure that was a good idea, but maybe it is to increase the adoption rates???

    So they are culling the herds, the are picking and chosing who stays and who goes based on factors not related to survival and in many ways the BLM is acting like any BYB program. Sort of not what I expected.

    The horses themsleves were not all that bad. They were in no way the "qulaity" we are used to, but some of them were nice movers, they were sure footed, they had skills and were easy keepers.

    The one that was higlighted in the documentary and adopted turned into a nicer riding horse them most OTTBs for the needs of the average recreational rider.

    What I really thought after seeing the show again was that if after the ecomony tanks and most BYB just stop breeding horses, there could be a real market for mustangs and trainers to train them. They would suit the needs of about 80% of horse owners. Incentives and shows could be made just for them and then ridiing and training skills would be judged more then color or breeding skills.

    Right now there are just too many horses--both domestic and feral, but after the great purge of the next 10 years or so, if the economy picked up again, maybe the mustang would be a nice way to fill up all those backyards again and they could be spayed and nuetered just like dogs? That has to be cheaper then feeding them for years?

    I think I am more concerned that the good qulaities of the mustangs are being diluted by a policy of color over all other traits, but if people could be convinced that a mustang is better then a byb QH/TWH/App then the problem might one day be solved?

    Right now, this year, it might be much better to humanely destroy a great number of those horses then to keep trying to keep them all alive when nobody wants them. That does not mean they should be sold for slaughter or shipped all over the country first. If the BLM had a plan for truley humaine slaughter on site that is fast and not stressful, I am not against that.

    BUT. . .the way we manage then should be changed. Birth control is cheaper then the adoption scheme. Culing based on more then color can lead to a more popular breed. We should mange them before they reproduce in great numbers and not just let them keep breeding until we have to kill them all over again.

    We seem to be managing the land when we could be managing the herds themselves. Reduce the numbers and go back to the old methods of turning out stallions we want to reproduce along with the herds?

    Have shows and sports for mustangs so riders can get their ribbon fix but they can't really depend on breeding for $$$$$? They have to have horsemanship skills?


    I know funds are limited, but somehow I see it as being cheaper to spay and nueter and birth control the wild herds then round them up, ship them around teh county, adopt them out to anybody with a few hundred bucks and keep feeding tens of thousands of them for years. 2 Federal vets and a team of helpers must be cheaper then all that?

    This should not happen again. If it has to happen now, so be it, but why not change the way the herds are managed instead of cleaning up the extras every 20 years?



  7. #47
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    Management plans are not created in a vacuum. The wild horse management plans are developed with public input; it's a very regulated process; and very public. The plan for "Cloud" is one that has had a great deal of public input.

    Last time I checked - that plan was on the Internet and is available to the public. If you're interested I can try and find the link for you.

    Each species has a management plan, each habitat has a management plan...whether it's on state or federal land. But there's also a lot of duplication of effort and boondoogling, too. After all, this is government.

    I would vociferously oppose taxpayer monies being used to purposefully breed feral horses for recreational use.

    My biggest concern has always been not that the animals needed to be removed, but the problems encountered with the removal. In most species, you can issue more hunting licenses or increase bag limits, hire sharpshooters, or take other lethal measures that are humane.

    With inaccessible areas, or species like horses, it becomes problematic. I think that is a legitimate concern - but I'm afraid the only honest answer is going to be that their welfare cannot be guaranteed.



  8. #48
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    I don't think I mean purposefully bread, I mean bred with an eye to increasing quality and adoptions and less of an eye for purty colors.

    They are going to be breeeding anyway, so maybe like the PMU farms they could be slightly improved for the "aftermarket"? I think thats what we did with goverment $$$ for many years wehn we used feral horses for work and remounts.



  9. #49
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    I think that is addressed in the management plan. The details are hazy.

    Hey - cool that you know that they were used as remounts! Very few people know that - they think these herds are "pure" Spanish.



  10. #50
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    *sigh* They aren't pure anything, but with the right marketing campigns learned from the Chigotinge ponies and the PMU industy I think the average mustang is the perfect mount for the average rider. The Island ponies do not need to be culled becuase they made them a branded names horse that people wanted.

    I understand people wanting to win ribbons, but I have no problem with trainers becoming more high paid then breeders. Make shows and incentives and you can market any breed.

    Let em be free, let em live, but find a way to mount the american middle aged woman and teenagers on mustangs. I have seen mustangs win evernts, dressage shows ect. . but you have to be a have to be a horseman and not just a rider to do your best. I think thats a good thing.

    Horsemen all read, at least "My Friend Flicka" in 2nd grade if not the whole series. They should all know at least the basics of the history of the mustangs from books if nothing else!



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by undersaddle View Post
    Wow, that is a pretty uneducated response.


    Um yeah - that is why so many people are lining up to adopt They are oh so wonderful to start

    Having started many many many mustangs I can honestly say as broke as i get them they are rarely an "any body's horse" And most real horsemen and women I know would prefer to own a preferred breed or even any other breed.

    I love the two I have - did not start them got them in their golden years as additions to my lesson program. One mare is wonderful the other is trying at best. Both are mustang to the core - which makes them cold blooded, thick, and narrow minded in my book. NOT an "any body's horse". And that is what there is always a market for. Not much market for short, club footed, thick bodied, bull headed. That's why NO ONE is adopting them
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvestmoon View Post
    Yup, I do. Owned one in the past (who is now semi-retired as an up-down lesson horse), would take another in a moment. In fact, I'm looking into bidding on a horse in the internet adoption that the BLM has going on right now. Great horses.
    You and who else? Why are so many sitting awaiting adoption for YEARS if they are oh so desirable

    Get you list together honey and go get a few dozen
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post

    Let em be free, let em live, but find a way to mount the american middle aged woman and teenagers on mustangs. I have seen mustangs win evernts, dressage shows ect. . but you have to be a have to be a horseman and not just a rider to do your best.

    Exactly

    Too few real riders want mustangs! And they are waaay too much for the average joe!
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  14. #54
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    You must have misunderstood me. I do not think they are wayyy too much for the average Joe, I just think the average Joe should aquire horsemanship skills and not just be a passive rider. I use "just a rider" in the bad way here.

    I think money should be thrown into training and not breeding. I do not support breedism and not not think the ability to outbuy the next person should win you more ribbons. The ability to train a horse better then the other guy should.

    All the mustangs I have seen win ribbons in open shows have been ridden by teenage girls and trained by families working along with a repsectable trainers with sound methods. They rarely have much chance at the highest level of showing, but most American riders have not much chance there either. Maybe that shoud be something to aspire to, but too many people are overmounted on expesenvie horses thay have no ability to get the highest and best use out of. Bigger is not always better and most of us just want a pet to love and ride.

    I don't think its brain sugery and I do not think its much harder the retraining an OTTB. I do not see many horror stories about Island ponies. I think the present BLM program mostly panders to the lowest common denominator and its just not worth adopting a horse when you can't find enough trainers to start all the crap we breed now.

    I'd get rid of breed shows all together and just have open shows based on merit. In that dream world a mustang would be just as good as any other breed. It seems silly to waste them and breed horses not much better but a little more attractive. Prettty is as pretty does.

    Pulling feral horses out of the range was good enough for work horses, riding horses and army horses for years. I do not see why it is not good enough for the average American rider who may have candycane dreams of being special, but should worry more about foundation skills on a sound, hardy small horse and care less about color or fancy bloodlines.

    As I said, I just watched the show on TV again. They slo mo shots of the horses moving and living on the not much did not make them look unattrative or unable to compete with most of what you see in less then A rated shows now. The brother of cloud that was adopted by the film-maker made a pretty handy mount and was not some hammerheaded monster. It made my well bred TB look like a jerk He didnot seem to require any special professional trianing. Just the same kind of work done on any horse not started until 2-3 years old. No way on hell I'd ride my TB down those mountains and into a herd of wild horses like she did on her mustang

    They just weren't that bad. Some of them were rather nice in a non-TB way and most of then seemed to be more useful types then most of the QH I see being ridden by children in 4H and other lower parts of the sport. They are not desireable and thats a shame becuase they would suit most riders way better then the horses they buy for silly amounts of money based on nothing but bloodlines and papers.

    If everyone who buys a grade horse or designer mutt horse today were to adopt a BLM mustang instead, would we have such a surplus? Is there any reason to breed anything for non-breed shows if they are running around free on the range? Who is the average American rider? Someone with international talent or just someone who wishes it were so and buys an expensive horse and deludes themselves? Can't they play pretend on a hardy little horse more suited the reality?

    There is a lack of people who can start an untrained horse these days. That is a problem, but if there were as much money in that as there was in breeding fuglys that void might be filled with people who can train and not just people who can watch horses reproduce.

    I don't have much experience with training mustangs, thats true, but I have seen some pretty piss poor matches based on the ability to pay the adoption fee that turned out OK with a little help.

    I think a mustang is a darn better idea than a gypsy vanner or a frasein or whatever flavor of the month fashion forward riders want to have to attract attention to themselves these days.

    I am simply proposing that the new goal be to market mustangs in the same way people are convinced a shaggy draftX from some other place is worth $$$$$$ when if it comes from here even if its useless and unattractive. I imagine the problem is that nobody would profit from that common sense approach but trainers. And training is what is should be all about--not marketing and look at me I have a rare breed/color/bloodlines. Blech.

    Maybe we should export them to other countires as our version of the second comming of horses, but would any other countries consumers fall for that? Or is that uniquily American taste?

    Why do we import all the worlds old and feral breeds while we can't even provide for our own home made breed? Through a few TBs and arabs out there and make it cool to be mounted on anglo-mustang or mustabian. They already have the color--now make them the next cool breed to ride but make it illegal to breed them



  15. #55
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    I just adopted an abondoned mustang six months ago. He is my current project horse. My ex project horse my mare is now my close to bombproof riding mare so for me it works out great. But this guy is certainly different than most domestic horses I have seen. But I don't think they are truly "wild" in the sense that a zebra is "wild". A fully grown and fit mustang has few predators if any-foals and yearlings and really old ones yes-but a healthy adult very rarely. Zebra in the wild in Africa have to dodge lions, hyena and crocodiles everyday and baby zebra have to worry about leopards and wild dogs too. So they are truly wild-I doubt you could catch a zebra off the wild and train him to do upper level dressage or even make him do cow work. but a mustang you can -I have seen mustangs compete upto 3rd level-will they win against a good warmblood-probably not but they do make a good all round horse especially if you have a good trainer who has dealt with them.

    But mustangs vary-depending on the area-in some areas where the draft horses were turned loose or escaped-you get some pretty big mustangs- 16h+ mustangs are not that uncommon in some range areas of CA. Some range areas have a lot of colour too. Most areas though they are just mixed up with every possible type of breed from TBs to appys to draft and I think I read somewhere there are actually wild BLM mules! I think some isolated areas may have the primitive or spanish blood but my guy is just a mutt(I like him.)
    One really dumb question-is it not possible to fix the mares permanently ? If they are holding 33,000 horses -at least the ones left in the range can't they just fix a big chunk of them. I know where my guy was captured, they rounded up a huge number and then left them at a desired number and of course four years later with the mares breeding the population increased and so they did another huge round up. It looks like this may be just a huge never ending thing-just wondering will be too expensive to maybe fix a whole bunch of mares ??The current policy seems to be just round up , let them breed, round up-there seems to be no other way out. I am sure with all those minds working overtime there must have been people who thought of fixing a big chunk of the mares but just never read about it anywhere...



  16. #56
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    In this economy - adoptions are down. Heck - people are having trouble selling sound, proven sporthorses.

    I think these little horses are great, personally. But if no one is adopting them - putting some training into them isn't going to make a difference. Rescues are full, the economy sucks and doesn't look like it's improving anytime soon.....

    The reality is - feral horse adoption is really interesting, and many of these horses are quite versatile. But few people want them in a good economy, and even fewer when the economy tanks.

    Which pretty much leaves just one option - at least for the horses that are kept penned up for their entire lives.



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    wait, I thought the thread was started by op wanting to save the mustangs, not "manage" them?????????????
    I started it so those who would WANT to sign this petition and did not know about it would be made aware.



  18. #58
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    Yes, they can spay mares, geld most colts and even use long term birth control methods to reduce the feral birth rates to that more like domestic horses.

    Mustangs have over a 90% conception rate. Domestics is more like 50%. It would cost $$$ to use population control, but I just can't see how it would be more expensive then rounding up and wharehousing large numbers of horses for years. And shipping them around the country to adoption events.

    I didn't even think about regional differances due to what has become feral along with the mustangs, but thats kind of cool.


    I think we are in a crisis of too many mustangs right now, but the ecomony sucks so bad I think there will be a very hard pruning of all horses being bred but the top 20% for the top 5% of the population.

    I see that as an opertunity to change our tastes so in 10-20 years when the ecomony recovers and more middle class people want horses again, the mustang could be the horse of choice. The number bred could be managed to match the number adopted.

    Kind of neat is that all the prison and youth programs that teach how to break and train mustangs and OTTbs could create a whole new class of trainers who have the skills and have the desire for a comfortable career starting feral horses for people without those skills.

    I may not really want a mustang, but its probably what I should want. Spending $10-30K on a fancy horse makes me feel like an olympic rider, but reality does not match my self image I can harldy even mount a horse over 15.2 any more!

    When I was younger I could have and would have been happy to be a professional trainer, but that job was mostly for people who trained show, race or simlar horses and there wasn't much of a living just training pleasure horses unless you bred them too. The real skill is marketing--not so much training itself.

    In the next 10 years most of our unwanted horses will be gone and most of our unwanted breeders will be gone too. There is a real change for positive change on the horizon.

    As for the public comment period and the management plans, I just do not see much interest in asking the average horse owner what we want. The BLM hires people with ecology, biology and land management backgrounds. They do not hire people with animal science backgrounds or people with years of real life horse expereince for anything but western type horses. They do not want my equine science degree at all. I think that says something in itself.

    Yes, I think they should make me queen of the mustangs and let me decide, but no I do not see that happening and the most research done on feral horses is from The University of Colorado and even that is mostly ignored by the BLM.

    Round em up, fix em and turn them back out, but someone still needs to decide who keeps thier bits and who does not. Right now its based on color. *sigh*



  19. #59
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    ---"I'd get rid of breed shows all together and just have open shows based on merit. In that dream world a mustang would be just as good as any other breed. It seems silly to waste them and breed horses not much better but a little more attractive. Prettty is as pretty does.

    Pulling feral horses out of the range was good enough for work horses, riding horses and army horses for years. I do not see why it is not good enough for the average American rider who may have candycane dreams of being special, but should worry more about foundation skills on a sound, hardy small horse and care less about color or fancy bloodlines."---

    I have to disagree strongly with this.

    Feral horses are very restricted in what they can do compared with a horse bred for a specific task.
    First, they are raised in harsh environment, which may make them better in some ways, but also gives them some drawbacks, as growing with feast and famine, not minimally balanced nutrition and wormy and such is not the best for overall longetivity.
    See my story about our horse's rickets.

    We also breed for certain characteristics, so we have those consistently repeated in the offspring.
    If you ever ride a horse bred to move a certain way, be it reining/cutting. gaited, or race horse, you can tell the difference breeding for those characteristics can make over the general horse population.
    Why would we want to give breed characteristics up, any more than giving the small size of a chihuahua or large of a great dane to go to your generic smaller brown dog all dogs revert to in a few generations of breeding on their own, without people's interference?

    Just because you don't have need for other than the equivalent in horses of the generic brown dog, why should everyone else give their chosen breeds and horse activities up?
    It is your right to have the kind of horse you want and so it is the right of others to have the kinds of horses they want.

    Why would it be right for others to impose on you their choices, any more than for you to demand all drop their chosen horse characteristics, on some odd idea that a feral horse is somehow better, greener, maybe more PC?



  20. #60
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    I'm not saying make it law--I'm saying make it popular.

    And I do not like most pure bred dogs as pets or purebred horses with more talent then most riders need. It grates on my nerves ot see peopel get herding dogs for apartments and hunting dogs for house pets who get no exercise. They would be sooo much better off with a mutt!

    I think I have been pretty clear I do not like breeding for profit much at all. So, yeah, of course we would disagree.

    We do breed certain triats into our recreational animals, but its not really needed for most recreational riders.

    A nice mustang can compete in 3ft classes, lower level dressage, all sports based on endurance for shoter rides, comptetive trail riding, reining, and so many other sports at the level most people actually ride at.

    My horse can jump 5ft courses and was bred to gallop really fast. I do not do those things, therefore, all his extra zazoom goes to waste on me. He's a well bred PITA that I never needed, but my trainer thought i had upper level potential so I bought an upper level horse. Turns out potential is rarely realized becuase it takes much more then talent. It takes hard work and dedication. For years my horse has been outstanding in his feild. Literally He was bred for top level compitions. I was not.

    What I really should have is a smaller horse that is hardy, has been selected for soundness, surefootedness and eating far less food.

    Since mustangs of all ages can be adopted, if one worries about poor nutrition then they can adopt a younger animal and feed it, but lets be honest--most of our breeds have great traits bred into them and very bad traits bred into them too.

    OCD, navicular, horrid hind ends, stifle problems, poor feet, insulin problems, poor keepers, high test gas temperments and they break down all the time. Look the horse care forum. Those were mostly carefully selected carefully bred horses. They do not have supirior health then a feral horse. Hybred vigor is a good thing. You just dont get those pretty papers to go with it.

    Some sports attract certain breeds. That does not always mean that only those breeds excell at them, it just means that most people with those breeds chose sports where those breds are highly represented.

    For example, we all know arabs are the endurance horse of choice. That does not mean other breeds do not do well in that sport. TBs, ASB, mustnags. . all have done well, but where is the selection taking place? In the winners circle or in the buyers mind? If you want to ride arabs you only had 2 choices until rcently--breed shows or endurance.

    I think the avergae horse bred today is no better then the average mustang. The really good horses may have inate talent for upper level success, but until we breed riders to match that inate talent its just overkill and unrealistic goals.

    The sports are completely abitrary. As long as you make sports that mustangs can compete in then people will win ribbons and be happy.

    You are older then I am. Surely you too have seen breeds that in past times had no chance in the show ring who now dominate and are well accepted? It was only 20 years ago we had no color in the hunter ring and they had to make classes for non-TBs or nobody would show a WB in the hunters. Things changed when people demanded it and realized most of them would never jump higher then 3ft ammies and couldn't ride a TB anyway.

    Its a sad time for horses in general. In the next decade we will have a chance to wipe the slate clean and start all over in our choices and preferances. Killing 50,000 horses so we can breed 50,000 other horses is just wasteful. Its motivated by $$$$ and egos. We can still get an ego fix with a mustang and still get the bond with a horse too. We just can't pretend we will all by ULR or olympic hopefuls--but how many people really ride at that level?

    I'd simply rather reward training and horsemanship then breeding and wastefulness. The next generation will learn from what we do in the next 10-20 years. What do we want to teach them?

    Both chihuhias and great danes are gentic messes and expensive pets to keep. People want them for their attention getting abilties, not the traits they were originally bred for. That mutt at the pound would be a much better choice, but fashion prevails over good sense.



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