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  1. #1021
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    Rain rot is not a direct result of NTWs and I don't believe anyone here has posted that. I think what's been said is that RR can be caused by a parasite load. RR is a clinical sign of several issues.

    First - dermatitis that arises from being wet, slightly dirty, unable to dry off, etc. (hence the rain rot). Infections within places where the skin is broken.

    Second - a horse whose immune system is not sufficient enough to counter any dermatitis. There are different ways to boost an immune system: reduce parasites, add anti-oxidants, add medications to fight off any internal infections.

    Dermatitis can form when there is any break in the skin or it can form in hair follicles. If a horse is subject to skin breakage from any type of insect or parasite, it leaves a place for dermatitis to start.

    Think about the chronic condition of scratches that many horses suffer from. It's an inflammation of skin tissue. Frequently vets prescribe both a topical and an oral supplement to combat scratches.

    I believe that there may be posts that allude to the possibility that the subject horse doesn't actually have rain rot - people say "my horse has bumps, or losing hair, or little crusties" and wonder if it's rain rot and how to treat it. And it goes from there.

    Deworming a horse in the best possible manner will - 99% of the time - help it boost its own immune system which will allow it to fight off minor infections and develop immunity to some parasites.



  2. #1022
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    Yep, somewhere buried in this thread are links to several scientific references to the relationship between NTW and the various ailments listed, including the tendons and ligaments.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #1023
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    is this not saying that rain rot is from ntw or parasites?

    Quote Originally Posted by little D View Post
    First I must say that I probably will regret even posting this but here goes. I advocate deworning for rain rot and other fungus problems. I have studied this for the last ten years. No I have not had a lab but I am like others able to do clinical trials which I did do. I primarily did these for lameness problems but in the process found evidence that in fact what was thought to be fungus is most likely a parasite die off.
    the parasites begin to die coming to the surface. as they do so coming out thru the hair folliculs. an abudance of them creates a scab like appearance. It has been noted by labs that a fungus grows under the scabby areas so it was beleived that a fungas was the cause. At some point more testing was done by some labs and then it was decided that there was a virus that was growing under the scabs and that must be what was causing the fungus. I maintain that the parasites die off presents the perfect enviroment for fungus and virus.
    These parasites present different skin conditions for different stages of their larvae life. This can be proven by using the dewormers and noting the results.
    I was a horse breeder. at the time that I did the testing I had 52 horses. I did different wormers and testing with different horses that primarily presented skin conditions. this was done over a ten year period. I can say without any dought that If I had not found a way to help these horses some would have definately died.
    Most of you will find that your vets are very sceptical. I personally found that I did not like the answers that I was getting. allergies with expensive treatments was the main answer. there are millions of dollars every year spent on vet visits and treatments that only treat the symptoms not the problem. boy that sure is job security to treat the symptoms and not the problem.
    One thing about this country. this is America. No one is twisting anyones arms to do anything to your horse. It is up to the owner to do what they believe to be right for them and their animals. If you want to take the advice of your vet and do nothing besides treating for symptoms thats up to the individual. On the other hand no one should tromple on those who are treating their own.
    If you will look on the inserts of your equimax boxes in the indications for treatment it says for skin dermatitis it is the last one mentioned. for those that dont know what that is. this means skin disorders or conditions of the skin. Keep in mind that rain rot is a skin condition. It is also non specific.
    This covers a broad spectrim of conditions. I am sure the makers of Equimax have done their home work.



  4. #1024
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    It is hardly a wild extrapolation to think that a horse who is prone to rain rot has an immune system that is not functioning well. It is not a wild extrapolation to think that by controlling a horses parasite load better, you might then enable the immune system to recover.

    Rain rot - generic term for funguses and bacterias that live in the skin - are always present on every horse. It is only the horses whose immune systems are compromised that will actually become symptomatic.

    My horses never have rain rot. I have had horses come here for rehab whose owners deliver them w/bags full of topicals to treat rain rot and they are indeed covered in it. I smile and set the bag aside and begin the deworming. To be fair - I also provide optimal nutrition and a low stress environment. But my horses who are in hard work and travel to school or show do not have rain rot issues either. The most telltale sign to me that influencing the immune system positively (and I don't mean boosting it, I don't buy into that one) is the best thing you can do for skin issues was that when Killian began to spiral downhill (laminitis from a reaction to a vaccination, ended up revealing itself to be systemic) he broke out in rain rot. He was not out in the rain in fact, he was living in an immaculately clean stall 24/7. Interesting to note that he broke out in the pattern seen most often - across the back spreading down the flanks just as if he had been rained on and the water ran down him. Of course it was soon revealed that his immune system had totally broken down.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  5. #1025
    Simple Gifts Guest

    Default Long term treatment and winter protocol

    While the recent philosophical debate is interesting, I want to thank those who’ve contributed to this thread for the benefit of alerting us all to an issue that truly flies below the radar for most horse owners. The debate is helpful for voicing the questions that many lurkers may have, but the bottom line is that the open exchange of information is greatly profitable to us all.

    I have a horse with unexplained dermatitis and was given the opinion, “probably allergies, do you want to test?” I felt uncertain of this advice, although there seemed to be no alternative explanations until, through a chain of events, I came across this information about onchocerca. Looking back on my horse’s record, the onset of dermatitis did coincide with ivermectin deworming. Many of the ‘anecdotes’ and photos fit what was happening with my horse.

    Well, one can disparage anecdotes, but they were exceedingly helpful to me and I hope others will post their stories if they have been lurking. I began the recommended treatment. I knew I was taking a risk in following advice from the internet, but I had personally come to the conclusion that doing something was better than doing nothing but calling this horse “allergic to the world,” doomed forever to suffer or be doped up with antihistamines. He responded to the treatments exactly as others have described. My other horse, who came to the farm with a moderate case of rain rot was also treated likewise and that cleared up without further treatment.

    One question for the naysayers . . . What alternative explanation would you offer to the observation that a particular horse responds to an ivermectin treatment within 3 days with an itchy and patchy dermatitis that then subsides, and tends to return at 2-3 weeks post-treatment? I honestly do want to know if there is another explanation of that phenomenon. And I do agree that more scientific studies would be delightful, but in the meantime I’m trying to do the best I can to help *my* horse in the here and now.

    For my horse, the treatment protocol was initiated in late fall, and I found that bathing the horse frequently with a mild (not medicated) shampoo post-treatment helped a lot with the horse’s discomfort. However, now we’re in the depths of winter, high temps around the low 20’s, and bathing is no longer a feasible option. If possible, I’d prefer to avoid systemic medical treatment, like with antihistamines or anti-inflammatories.

    So my questions to the believers are . . .

    • Is there a suggested long term treatment protocol to combat the adult infestation until it dies off?
    • Would the treatment protocol be adjusted for seasonal conditions?
    • How would you explain what appears to be seasonal dermatitis mimicking allergies if it, in fact, is caused by a persistent internal parasite that is present long-term and year-round?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #1026
    Join Date
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    Default Info included with Equimax Paste re: Summer Sores and Dermatitis

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    littleD, thank you, that was a fantastic post

    I admit I had not seen the reference to "skin crud" on the Equimax box! Excellent to know - I know some people HAD "wormed the snot" out of a horse as an effort to help dermatitis issues.
    I pulled out the insert from a box of Equimax. I haven't typed everything that was on the insert - which includes the results of a safety study (where they gave mares 3x the dose EVERY 2 WEEKS before being bred, all through the pregnancy and afterwards!! EE gadds); includes precations, dosing, etc. etc. But this info is what Little D is referring to.

    From Product Enclosure for Equimax.
    INDICATIONS: Consult your veterinarian for assistance in the diagnosis, treatment and control of parasitism. Equimax (ivermectin/praziquantal) Paste is indicated for the treatment and control of the following parasites:

    Tapeworms
    Large Strongyles (Adults)
    -- sub listing of 5 species--
    Small Strongyles (Adults, including those resistant to some bensimidazole class compounds)
    -- sub listing of 5 species--
    Small Strongyles (fourth stage larvae)
    Pinworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Ascarids (adults and third- and fourth-stage larvae)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Hairworms (adults)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Large-mouth Stomach Worms (adults)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Bots (oral and gastric stages)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Lungworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Intestinal Threadworms (adults)
    -- sub listing of 1 species--
    Summer Sores caused by Habronema and Drashcia spp. cutaneous third-stage larvae.
    Dermatitis caused by Neck Threadworm microfilariae, Onchocerca sp.
    NOTE TO USER: Swelling and itching reactions after treatment with ivermectin paste have occurred in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadowrm (Onchocerca sp. microfilariae). These reactions were most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers. Symptomatic treatment may be advisable. Consult your veterinarian should any such reactions occur. Healing of summer sores involving extensive tissue changes may require other appropriate therapy in conjuntion with treatment with Equimax Paste. Reinfection, and measures for its prevention, should also be considered. Consult your veterinarian if the condition does not improve.
    Now then. Dermatitis can be rain rot or other skin afflictions.
    So. Let people decide based on their situation and their discussion with their vet.
    Last edited by gabz; Jan. 28, 2009 at 04:23 PM.



  7. #1027
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    Awesome gabz, thanks!
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Gifts View Post
    So my questions to the believers are . . .
    • Is there a suggested long term treatment protocol to combat the adult infestation until it dies off?
    I guess it's be sure to use adequate amounts of dewormer when treating. Not underdosing. Using ivermectin and if necessary, double dosing with ivermectin or Equimax when signs of midline dermatitis is evident.

    Using fly sprays and fly sheets to avoid biting midges carrying the microfilariae from one horse to another.

    • Would the treatment protocol be adjusted for seasonal conditions?
    I live in a climate zone where it's deep freeze for a few months each year. While the deep freeze doesn't knock out many other parasites. I do believe it gets rid of biting midges which serve to reinfect horses. So determining when these are most prevalent MAY determine timing for stringent treatment.

    • How would you explain what appears to be seasonal dermatitis mimicking allergies if it, in fact, is caused by a persistent internal parasite that is present long-term and year-round?
    The skin reaction is caused by die-off. But I think it's also caused by the biting midges that transfer the microfilariae. When there's no biting midges, there's little, if any, dermatitis reaction.

    OR... the adult onchocerca only produce during certain timeframes based on length of day - much like some other internal parasites do. They may only shed eggs during periods when midges are feeding in order to perpetuate the species. ???? (I'm no biologist / scientist / vet)

    Obviously, there is much more research out there - but since this is a condition that was identified many years before (1960 - 70s) the advent of the internet, that info won't be found using internet searches.


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  9. #1029
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    Yep, bumping up again!

    I was looking up some info on uveitis, and lookee here! I do not recall (and ain't lookin'! ) if this connection was mentioned, but just in case:

    http://www.igs.net/~vkirkwoodhp/eru.htm
    The most common parasite connected with uveitis is onchocerca. Culicoides, a biting midge of the Ceiatopogonidae family, is believed to be the primary transmitter. The adult lives in the connective tissue of the horse's neck and the microfilariae travel throughout the body. The most common signs of it are sores breaking out on the midline of the horse's stomach, base of the mane and withers and uveitis in the horse's eye(s) (French, 1988). Uveitis occurs when there are large quantities of dead microfilariae in the eye. Normally the eye can handle the live ones but the dead give off large amounts of antigens and these cause inflammation in the eye (Schwink, op cit p. 560). Ironically for horse owners, onchocerca can sometimes first be identified by the onset of symptoms following worming with ivermectin. This is one drug that will effectively kill off the young microfilariae, but at the same time by doing its job it can initiate uveitis if a large quantity of the microfilariae are in the eye at the time of worming.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  10. #1030
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    JB, that's interesting. Ten years ago I knew a woman who's horse developed an odd spot in his eye after being dewormed with Ivermectin. Naturally, she thought it was a reaction to the dewormer. A few months later, her pony (a different horse) was diagnosed with moon blindness.

    It's safe to say that her horses had a lot of Onchocerca. I wonder if she ever figured it out.



  11. #1031
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    Apr. 7, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Yep, bumping up again!

    I was looking up some info on uveitis, and lookee here! I do not recall (and ain't lookin'! ) if this connection was mentioned, but just in case:

    http://www.igs.net/~vkirkwoodhp/eru.htm
    I was told about this on an eye thread here a month or two ago. I did not realize at the time my horses had been getting under dewormed for the last 2 years (didn't know weight tapes were inaccurate). Sooooo, two weeks ago I did a full dose of Ivermectin on a mare that has had runny eyes for over a year (she's been seen by multiple vets that were clueless...there is no ophthalmologist close by). 36 hours after she was wormed she had classic uveitis. I called the vet out to make sure there were no scratches or abrasions and to ok some steroidal ointment. The vet said that onchocerca in the eye was extremely rare. I question him 'Even if she has been getting under dewormed?' and he says 'yeah, it's rare...must just be a coincidence'. This vet won't be called back due to me asking him if ERU causes blindness and he replied with 'No, not normally' Another one bites the dust.

    So yeah, I'm convinced she had a massive die off behind those eyes. One eye was slightly runny, the other was swollen, half open with a constricted pupil. Again, this was in less than 36 hours after being dewormed. I dosed her again yesterday (her two week timing). Her eyes were a little bit runny today but nothing major, but we've had bone chilling winds that could be stirring up dust as well.

    The protocol I was told on here (that I checked on with another vet) was to do one dose of Ivermectin and follow up with another dose two weeks later. So far so good. I just want her eyes to clear up. It's been nothing major, just runny and conjunctivitis for over a year. As of a few days ago, this is the best her eyes have looked in over a year. So, I'm convinced it was parasites. I will never under deworm again.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #1032
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    Jul. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaimebaker View Post
    As of a few days ago, this is the best her eyes have looked in over a year. So, I'm convinced it was parasites. I will never under deworm again.
    Amen. Me too. After we saved the ol' mans life by finding this thread, I hit mom's TWH with the double dose for this very reason. Runny, gooey eyes and no one knew why. His cleared up and stayed that way all the way thru the end of summer and still A-OK. Used to have live in a fly mask 24/7 in Spring, Fall and Summer. Not this year.



  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Yep, bumping up again!

    I was looking up some info on uveitis, and lookee here! I do not recall (and ain't lookin'! ) if this connection was mentioned, but just in case:

    http://www.igs.net/~vkirkwoodhp/eru.htm
    Wow. Think I'm gonna try and hit Gus up with a DD of Equimax (never did do him this past fall) and again with plain Ivermectin two weeks later. He does have ERU (and he's an Appy). Very very interesting about the connections between the two... NTW and ERU. Thanks for posting the information JB!
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  14. #1034
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    One of my clients has a pony of unknown origins and a mini. Neither one had a deworming history. Both of them had runny, goopy eyes and had both been tentatively diagnosed with uveitis. A couple of double equimax's and ivermectins and they are both fine now. I think Mapleshade had this happen, too.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  15. #1035
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    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Well, Gus got his double dose of Equimax today. I plan on double dosing again in two weeks with plain ivermectin. The reason for double dosing him is due to having ERU. We'll see if anything changes. I've noticed a lot more issues with tearing and swelling these past couple days... who knows what the reason is as nothing has changed but the weather.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  16. #1036
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    appychik, thanks for the "we've started" update You most definitely will have to update us in 2 weeks, if you don't have anything to report before then (good OR bad!)
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  17. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    appychik, thanks for the "we've started" update You most definitely will have to update us in 2 weeks, if you don't have anything to report before then (good OR bad!)
    Definitely will do. I'm hoping it'll help - certainly won't hurt (as I think he's a product of underdosing dewormer for years also as we've always been at boarding barns... and they just eyeball for weight). And, I've got a weight on him, though next time he's at the specialist I need to see if we can put him on their scale...
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  18. #1038
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    Make sure you've got your eye ointment ready. If there is a die off behind those eyes it can cause a nasty uveitis flare up. After I wormed my mare the first time, within 36 hours she could barely open one eye. I wormed her for the second time last week and she's been tearing up ever since The first time I had to keep her on dex ointment, bute, and antiobiotics for 5 days afterwards (per vet instructions after a thorough exam). I'm scared to death of using steroid ointment if I can't guarantee she doesn't have a scratch somewhere so I didn't do the steroids after the second dosing. I've got her on gentamycin right now to see if I can't get the tearing in check. She looked great up until her second dosing and she started tearing again. No pupil constriction or pain though. However, this was a single dose of ivermectin two weeks apart (the normal protocol for onchocerca in the eyes). I plan on doing the DD of Equimax the next go round and see if I can't get her cleared up. Just wanted you to be aware if there IS a connection and she's got parasites behind those eyes, you can cause a fairly nasty onset of uveitis from it.


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  19. #1039
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    Regarding the uveitis flare up..we wormed a rescue pony that we picked up Jan. 25. She is already blind in one eye and 3 days before Bambi was to leave for her new home in Virginia (her story is on the Valentine donation thread on Off Course) she went blind in her "good eye". The vet showed me what she said were fibroids in the eye. Coincidence? Am glad I caught up on this thread this morning.
    Oh, and an update on Tucker. I double dosed the equimax the other day. Yesterday he kept rolling in the same sandy spot...not a colic roll, because he kept walking over from the hay pile he was eating to roll in the same spot and then would go rub on a tree. When I came out after work, he had broken 2 boards and could not walk past anything without rubbing....it finally hit me why he was so unusually itchy! I just wish I had gotten the hot wire fixed before I wormed him! His skin is looking really good, the habronema is good, the best it has looked, but still there. Having several freezes and alot of cold weather this winter has been good for him.



  20. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaimebaker View Post
    Make sure you've got your eye ointment ready. If there is a die off behind those eyes it can cause a nasty uveitis flare up. After I wormed my mare the first time, within 36 hours she could barely open one eye. I wormed her for the second time last week and she's been tearing up ever since The first time I had to keep her on dex ointment, bute, and antiobiotics for 5 days afterwards (per vet instructions after a thorough exam). I'm scared to death of using steroid ointment if I can't guarantee she doesn't have a scratch somewhere so I didn't do the steroids after the second dosing. I've got her on gentamycin right now to see if I can't get the tearing in check. She looked great up until her second dosing and she started tearing again. No pupil constriction or pain though. However, this was a single dose of ivermectin two weeks apart (the normal protocol for onchocerca in the eyes). I plan on doing the DD of Equimax the next go round and see if I can't get her cleared up. Just wanted you to be aware if there IS a connection and she's got parasites behind those eyes, you can cause a fairly nasty onset of uveitis from it.

    Very interesting about the deworming potentially causing a uveitis flare up. I will make sure to get his meds handy. Never thought about a large die off with deworming but makes total sense. Won't be back to the barn until Sunday, unfortunately - due to work schedule and other plans. Hopefully all goes well until then.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



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