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  1. #981
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2005
    Location
    Southwest WA
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    464

    Default No necropsy ... but interesting you should ask

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoMare View Post
    Oh, I'm so sorry to hear of this Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.

    ((( Hugs )))
    First ... my vet was onboard with the protocol (not familiar with it, but after discussions was game -- particularly after the eruption!). We gave the 4 week break purposefully on his recommendation.

    We didn't do a formal necropsy. For those interested, here's an album of photos of what her legs looked like during treatment.

    http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/criker99/Hannah/

    (hopefully the album link works). BE WARNED - there is a photo in there of my daughter while Hannah is down. DD insisted on a "last photo" with one of her best friends. I don't know how she managed it -- she was in tears, but wanted it to be a happy photo - she faked it quite well.

    It was interesting, DD's response. She knew, obviously, we were working with this protocol. This last summer she had the opportunity to participate in a clinic where they dissected a horse's leg. She actually asked if she thought we could do that to Hannah's leg and see once and for all what was going on in there. We talked about it, and as much as the curiousity was there, we decided that in reality we didn't think we could pull it off emotionally. This, along with the fact that we wouldn't necessarily have the knowledge to know what we were looking at.

    The vet was out of town and not due back, so a standard necropsy wasn't available. Of course the worst part is having to call the renderer to take her body away. We aren't allowed to bury them here.



  2. #982
    Join Date
    Nov. 4, 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Georgia
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    16,656

    Default

    Oh my What a trooper she was.

    Thank you for quantifying to all here that you DID have your vet involved in the whole process.

    (((( some more hugs )))))
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  3. #983
    Join Date
    May. 13, 2008
    Posts
    497

    Default

    We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.



    Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.[/QUOTE]

    I am so sorry to read of your loss. Hugs and warm wishes to you and your DD.



  4. #984
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    wow! i am so sorry for your loss. I am absolutely gob smacked at what was coming out of her leg !!! does the vet not know what it was?

    (the below is not directed at you - just my comments about this thread in general )

    while reading her post i recalled that i have read (no, i cant remember the links) that folks have to be very careful when de-worming especially for horses with suspected heavy worm loads - something about theaffect of all those dead and dying worms evacuating the horse can be a real problem and can possible do extreme damage. .

    while i support people in their efforts to help their horses i just hope that those that are going crazy with this Double dose routine stop and think about what they are dong.

    wormer is a very powerful drug after all.



  5. #985
    Join Date
    Nov. 4, 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Georgia
    Posts
    16,656

    Default

    Then, MBM, I will reiterate what has been stated before but, perhaps, missed in the myriad of pages/posts:

    Everything should be done with caution and under the supervision of a veterinarian, as WeDoItAll did. If after three double doses, NO change is seen for the better, then the owner can safely assume that it is not NTW-related and should seek out further veterinary care, up to and including seeing a specialists at a University.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  6. #986
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2003
    Location
    Lapeer, MI, USA
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    4,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    wow! i am so sorry for your loss. I am absolutely gob smacked at what was coming out of her leg !!! does the vet not know what it was?

    (the below is not directed at you - just my comments about this thread in general )

    while reading her post i recalled that i have read (no, i cant remember the links) that folks have to be very careful when de-worming especially for horses with suspected heavy worm loads - something about theaffect of all those dead and dying worms evacuating the horse can be a real problem and can possible do extreme damage. .

    while i support people in their efforts to help their horses i just hope that those that are going crazy with this Double dose routine stop and think about what they are dong.

    wormer is a very powerful drug after all.
    mbm - Yes, common sense has to be used at all times when adopting protocols read about on websites;

    When a horse has a high parasite load there can be 2 different repercussions from high kill off. One is when there is a large number of stomach worms (typically foals) that die and then block the intestines.
    The 2nd event is when there is a high parasite kill off and that creates toxins in the horse and leads to colic and other fatal illnesses.

    When a horse has not been on an adequate deworming program, it can obviously begin to harbor large numbers of a parasites. There is anywhere from 50 - 160 different parasites that are "native" to horses. They do not all shed eggs so fecal counts are not always accurate. There are 50 -160 different types of parasites that can exist in many different stages, throughout the horse - in tissues of the mouth, muscles, heart, lungs, other internal organs, stomach, intestines, etc. etc. The parasites in their various forms of life stages migrate throughout the horse.

    When a horse's previous deworming history is unknown or questionable, I always recommend a mild paste dewormer to knock out a percentage of parasites; then a week or 2 later, something a little stronger; then 2 weeks later something like Quest, Quest +, Equimax, to take out any remaining parasites AND to take out any newly hatched parasites - because with some types, they lay dormant in a juvenile form until they sense "room". So if the mature ones are knocked off, that leaves room for an earlier stage to hatch or migrate. Some dewormers are only active against mature stages of certain parasites so once the adult form is killed, the newly emerging mature has to be targeted soon afterwards; other dewormers are active against encysted stages of other parasties. etc.

    So far as the worm in the horse's leg - that's exactly what this thread is about. While that worm might not have been onchocerca - it could have been since the adults can grow up to 12" long. The migrating microfilarae and onchocerca that travel beneath the skin - through the tissues of the horse and cause severe itching; OR the ones that settle in the ligaments and tendons of infected horses - usually foals - and create damage of contracted tendons. Mature Onchocerca live in the muscles of the neck of horses close to the spine. (nuchum ligatae or whatever) There is nothing to kill them. They continue to release eggs that become adults that travel throughout the horse.

    Horses are fragile animals and their intestinal systems are easily impacted. I do not advocate continual high doses of dewormers, but I do think that there are times when it is necessary to truly kill off parasites - in their myriad forms.



  7. #987
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default deworming

    keep in mind that it very well could have been something other than your deworming that put your horse down. I have been doing research on this for over 10 year and to date I have never had the results that occurred here. Sorry for your lose.



  8. #988
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    35,757

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    "Parasiticidal Resistance Reported in New Study
    June 19 2008, Article # 12105
    Kentucky researchers report that roundworms and small strongyles, two common equine intestinal parasites, are developing resistance against most of the commercially available worming products. What's worse, no new drugs against either of these parasites are forthcoming on the market."

    https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12105
    The resistance of small strongyles is not the same resistance we're talking about, as in, no longer 100% die-off. The "resistance" with the small strongyles is that in a *few* instances, they are seeing an ERP of 4 weeks instead of the normal 8 weeks. Still 100% kill rate, but a faster re-appearance. The last that was published, that I read, which has only been in the last 2 months or so, there was nothing put out yet as to how to potentially address this, as a 4-week rotation with ivermectin is not necessarily the best route.

    Resistance of ascarids (roundworms) to ivermectin is not new.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i didnt say there was anything inherently wrong about double dosing (with vet approval) - however, my point is - the *fad* of double dosing for any old suspected reason is one thing that is helping spread resistance to ivermectin - just like people taking (or giving) antibiotics for any old reason is helping reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics.

    it is just common sense.
    Where is there a fad of DD'ing for any ol' reason? It's not here. This thread has been *entirely* about DD'ing with Equimax (or ivermectin alone) for reasons thought to be due to adult onchocerca. That's it. Not for rainrot, not for ascarids, not dd'ing with moxidectin (eep!!). Equimax/ivermectin, and neck threadworms.

    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.
    Even for ascarids? I think that isn't quite correct. Ascarids are a known resistance issue here in the US. My vet has a client - breeding farm - where ascarid resistance to ivermectin is pretty high. She has them only using a double dose of fenbendazole on the foals for now.

    You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.
    This caught my attention, because somewhere recently I read someone mention using pyrantel pamoate *and* oxibendazole (aka Anthelcide) together for a bigger bang. I realize the daily dewormers are pyrantel tartrate, but if you give a high enough dosage of that, you can effectively mimic pyrantel pamoate.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #989
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
    Posts
    18,472

    Default

    I will check it tonight.

    I may try to copy this and then post it somewhere, it is not on line and was in a vet journal.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  10. #990
    Join Date
    Aug. 8, 2001
    Location
    up the hill from the little river (that floods alarmingly often)
    Posts
    3,612

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Please explain exactly how by killing them, you create resistance?

    It is the UNDER deworming that people do that creates resistance.

    Not to mention, people who only use daily dewormer and the twice a year ivermectin... aieeeeee... think of all the worms those horses never get dewormed for... OneLaneRode, where are you with your latest gathering on that?

    Horses have gotten bigger and the tubes haven't.
    Funny you should ask!

    Had a long chat about this over the holidays. We discussed what the daily dewormer targeted and what praziquantel* targeted. And then I asked what was being done to address encysted small strongyles, flukes and threadworms. *long pause*

    Serious reservations about double dosing were expressed, and a fecal has been scheduled.

    *Apparently Equimax was being used, not just ivermectin.
    Full-time bargain hunter.



  11. #991
    Join Date
    Apr. 10, 2006
    Posts
    7,354

    Default

    Bumping....
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



  12. #992
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
    Posts
    18,472

    Default

    This study is 8 pages long.. and doesn't copy well as my copy is a copy of a copy
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  13. #993
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2003
    Location
    Lapeer, MI, USA
    Posts
    4,075

    Default Bump

    bump for bumps on horse's back



  14. #994
    Join Date
    May. 31, 2004
    Posts
    1,399

    Default

    I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

    I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

    any chemical can be dangerous



  15. #995
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2003
    Location
    Lapeer, MI, USA
    Posts
    4,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

    I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

    any chemical can be dangerous
    I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion? (that people are not just continuing to deworm their horses because the forums said so)

    Some people feel uncomfortable about it. That's perfectly fine - but when anyone asks for suggestions, recommendations, etc. and others give that info, it's up to the person to decide - hopefully with a discussion with their vet - on how to proceed. sort of like Take it or Leave it.

    As JB pointed out above
    Where is there a fad of DD'ing for any ol' reason? It's not here. This thread has been *entirely* about DD'ing with Equimax (or ivermectin alone) for reasons thought to be due to adult onchocerca. That's it. Not for rainrot, not for ascarids, not dd'ing with moxidectin (eep!!). Equimax/ivermectin, and neck threadworms.
    'nuff said.

    Someone posted about bumps on their horse's back. As we've seen AND READ from research studies - serum pustules that appear, seem to be the dead/dying juvenile forms of onchocerca, aka Neck Thread Worms and microfilarae.



  16. #996
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,757

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

    I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

    any chemical can be dangerous
    Huh? Again, who has advocated continuing to deworm the snot out of a horse just because there's a fungus? People have gone out of their way to say "if you've done this 3, even 4 times, and still having problems, STOP, because it's not a NTW issue". But guess what, some people have HAD to get that 4th dose in before they really saw results.

    Everyone who has chimed in here has said this isn't necessarily the best idea and you SHOULD speak to your vet about it.

    So, I don't understand your comments at all
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  17. #997
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default deworming

    First I must say that I probably will regret even posting this but here goes. I advocate deworning for rain rot and other fungus problems. I have studied this for the last ten years. No I have not had a lab but I am like others able to do clinical trials which I did do. I primarily did these for lameness problems but in the process found evidence that in fact what was thought to be fungus is most likely a parasite die off.
    the parasites begin to die coming to the surface. as they do so coming out thru the hair folliculs. an abudance of them creates a scab like appearance. It has been noted by labs that a fungus grows under the scabby areas so it was beleived that a fungas was the cause. At some point more testing was done by some labs and then it was decided that there was a virus that was growing under the scabs and that must be what was causing the fungus. I maintain that the parasites die off presents the perfect enviroment for fungus and virus.
    These parasites present different skin conditions for different stages of their larvae life. This can be proven by using the dewormers and noting the results.
    I was a horse breeder. at the time that I did the testing I had 52 horses. I did different wormers and testing with different horses that primarily presented skin conditions. this was done over a ten year period. I can say without any dought that If I had not found a way to help these horses some would have definately died.
    Most of you will find that your vets are very sceptical. I personally found that I did not like the answers that I was getting. allergies with expensive treatments was the main answer. there are millions of dollars every year spent on vet visits and treatments that only treat the symptoms not the problem. boy that sure is job security to treat the symptoms and not the problem.
    One thing about this country. this is America. No one is twisting anyones arms to do anything to your horse. It is up to the owner to do what they believe to be right for them and their animals. If you want to take the advice of your vet and do nothing besides treating for symptoms thats up to the individual. On the other hand no one should tromple on those who are treating their own.
    If you will look on the inserts of your equimax boxes in the indications for treatment it says for skin dermatitis it is the last one mentioned. for those that dont know what that is. this means skin disorders or conditions of the skin. Keep in mind that rain rot is a skin condition. It is also non specific.
    This covers a broad spectrim of conditions. I am sure the makers of Equimax have done their home work.



  18. #998
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default just one more thing

    keep in mind treatments sometimes do have undesiralbe results such as heart worm treatments for dogs. some do die from the treatments, but without them they would have perrished. Do we quit doing treatments because of this?
    Many years ago I worked for a vet. I had a Great Dane given to me that had worms terribly I talked with the vet about the possibilitiy of the deworming killing him his statement was if you dont deworm what do you think will be the results. Of course it would be death his only chance was to deworm which we did and he thrived. Many do not. You cannot denounce those for taking definitive action. it is wrong. If you chose not to do it that is your business. I am so thankful to be an American where I am free to do this.



  19. #999
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    Jul. 20, 2008
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    Region 1, Area 2, Zone 3
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    632

    Default

    1000th post on this thread!

    ...sorry, had to do it. Now back to NTWs...
    BDC



  20. #1000
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    35,757

    Default

    littleD, thank you, that was a fantastic post

    I admit I had not seen the reference to "skin crud" on the Equimax box! Excellent to know - I know some people HAD "wormed the snot" out of a horse as an effort to help dermatitis issues.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



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