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  1. #961
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    Aug. 6, 2003
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    From this link: http://www.pasturecleaner.com/pastur...itecontrol.htm
    In northern temperate climates, refugia are smallest during the winter, where development of free-living stages occurs at a very low rate. In contrast, refugia are smallest during summer in warm temperate and subtropical/tropical climates, where hot temperatures decreases survival of third stage infective larvae.
    This discussion also references some studies on resistance for some parasites. I would not have called it conclusive though. This discussion uses the term refugia as being the small minority of parasite stages that have survived a treatment. It recommends backing off on anthelmintics during those periods of time.

    This is exactly why rotations specific to regions are necessary and why it is always recommended that people discuss and formulate a rotation with their equine vet.

    Which is why here in the north, I schedule 8 weeks between treatments in the winter months and 6 weeks in the summer - which coincides with my farrier appointments. : )


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  2. #962
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    yes, of course incorrectly using something is a problem - but more importantly is the problem of people using drugs inappropriately - and creating a huge resistance problem.

    if wormer's are used correctly (ie by using fecal egg counts *and* timing the worming to when it will be effective (eggs hatching, shedding etc etc etc)
    then you get the most bang for your buck *and* you use as little as possible to get the results you want - this helps keep residence at bay.

    exactly the same as antibiotics for people.

    the worming schedules recommended by vet schools, the AAEP etc is based on fecal egg counts and correct timing. the every 6 week schedule is old school and was based on marketing.

    and this double dose fad is really scary as all it will do is increase resistance.



  3. #963
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    In regards to your second "reference" ...
    Parascaris equorum, the large roundworm of horses, is a common parasite of foals. Older foals develop immunity to it, and it rarely causes problems in adult horses. Under optimum conditions, P. equorum eggs become infective within about two weeks of being passed in the faeces. At lower temperatures the eggs may survive for many years in stables and on pasture.
    and
    In a report in Veterinary Parasitology, Professor Owen Slocombe of the Ontario Veterinary College, and others describe how they found ivermectin- and moxidectin -resistant P. equorum on stud farms in Canada.
    So. they found ivermectin/moxidectin resistance to one parasite and it is one that is most perilous to foals. However, the study says this:

    Overall, they found that ivermectin reduced the Parascaris equorum faecal worm egg count by only 33.0% and moxidectin by 47.2%. In contrast, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate were highly effective, reducing the faecal egg count by 97.6%. In fact, many foals had no P. equorum eggs in the faeces after treatment with fenbendazole or pyrantel.
    and it's summary is this:
    This study emphasises that a single dewormer cannot be assumed to control all species of worms in foals. It may well be necessary to use more than one type of dewormer to control all the potential parasite problems in foals.
    So. resistance exists and rotating is the answer. NOT stopping regular deworming treatments. When the parasites developed resistance to non-ivermectin treatments, then ivermectin was used. When there was resistance to ivermectin, they switched back to the other classes. No where does it say that too many/ too frequent doses cause resistance.
    This study supports the idea of yearly rotation amongst classes. Use ivermectin/moxidectin for a year, then switch to the -dazoles.


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  4. #964
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    "Parasiticidal Resistance Reported in New Study
    June 19 2008, Article # 12105
    Kentucky researchers report that roundworms and small strongyles, two common equine intestinal parasites, are developing resistance against most of the commercially available worming products. What's worse, no new drugs against either of these parasites are forthcoming on the market."

    https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12105

    i am not going to do dueling links with you. but my reading has led me to change how i worm and has caused me to be worried about the future of worming..... . <shrug>



  5. #965
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    mbm - have you read how the 5-day power paks work?

    They knock out a very large percentage of parasites the first dose, then the 2nd day, they get another percentage; on the 3rd day, it takes out nearly all the parasites that that class of dewormer targets. the 4th day picks up some more stragglers. The 5th day is a "just in case" dose.

    It won't get all the targeted parasites. But it takes at least 3 days of DOUBLE DOSE to clean out the horse of the targeted parasites.

    The same is true for the DD Equimax or DD Ivermectin against THIS (microfilarae from onchocerca) specific type of parasite. No one is advocating everyone should do this - only to target the specific parasite and the condition - whether it's the summer itches / midline itchies or the contracted tendons.

    It's like taking steroids. My doctor doesn't want me on them all the time - but there ARE instances when I - and other people - have to take them. I start out with a large dose (6 pills) and it tapers down to 1 pill over a week. It's for a specific problem and hopefully, it lasts a year or two before the condition returns.

    I hope this analogy helps some folks to understand.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #966
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    i didnt say there was anything inherently wrong about double dosing (with vet approval) - however, my point is - the *fad* of double dosing for any old suspected reason is one thing that is helping spread resistance to ivermectin - just like people taking (or giving) antibiotics for any old reason is helping reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics.

    it is just common sense.



  7. #967
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    Out of curiosity, what would be the current, COTH-approved worming program, comprehensive to include hoof worms? No, kidding on the hoof worms, but I am curious.
    -Grace



  8. #968
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    Default AMAZING CONTRACTED FOAL CASE STUDY

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoMare View Post
    I'm gonna tease you folks .... A nice lady wrote to me about 5 weeks ago about her filly. She was SEVERELY contracted and club-footed. She was on the verge of putting this girl down but, somehow, heard about me and asked if I could help. I immediately referred her to this thread AND my farrier/trimmer.

    Well that lady sent me updated pictures about an hour ago and THEY ARE AMAZING!!!! ....in a very, very good way I am waiting to get permission from her to post the pictures, as well as hear from Little D to get the story behind the pics.
    Ok, got permission and the whole story from the owner:

    Annie’s feet were obviously ‘going bad’ at around 2 months. By 3 my regular farrier said, "You need to find someone that can help you with this – it is out of my league."

    I talked to several different farriers and vets and did everything they said (except surgery) – the early weaning at 4 months, reduced quality of feed, special trims, special cuffs.. and her feet continued to get worse.

    I am on the Carriage Driving List and happened to have a sleepless night one night and followed a thread someone posted about threadworms and itchy skin. Eventually it ended up at the C of the H site, and there was a reference to club feet. I followed that line.. and found you!

    November 10 I double dosed Annie with Equimax for the first time. (she was the single itchiest baby we had ever seen! She would turn inside out for a good scratching. She never had any sores, before or after the E-Max.) She continued to get worse.

    Then found you and DJ, double dosed again and 2 weeks later was able to have DJ come here (and meet with my regular farrier and my back-up guy) work on Annie and explain what she did, how and why. (By then, with 2 double doses of E-Max at work, her lower legs were already gaining in flexibility.)

    Annie was immediately more comfortable, and within 3 days, except for those awkward, heavy casts, walked ‘normally’ – that is, her strides were normal, legs back under her shoulders instead of stretched out in front, she was no longer using her back and hocks to stay up, and the tendons, etc at the fronts of her front legs relaxed. Her shoulders softened, as did her knotted up back muscles.

    I diligently filed her heels every day or 2 and walked her 2x daily, then 3, increasing amts, up and down hills, and finally turned her loose in the barn all day every day. (Fields too wet and hilly to safely put her out with casts on her feet.) After 3 ½ weeks, one of the cast/shoes started sounding loose (like loose shoes do when they are going to be really loose in a day or 2).

    The plan was for DJ to come back (or my regular farriers to work on her, depending on schedules, etc) in 4 weeks, remove everything and reevaluate. With it being loose and potentially making a sore somewhere, DJ (was able to work her schedule around to come...a 3 Hour drive for her) took off the shoe/casts and I took more pictures.

    I could tell before that, that they were definitely improving. Annie was ‘going to her heel’ every time I filed and I was taking as much as I could as fast as I could without her getting sore.

    But when those casts came off and she went clear to her heel on the floor I almost cried. 3 ½ weeks!

    We obviously aren’t ‘there’ yet, but looking at those pictures it sure looks possible, doesn’t it? She is 7 months old now, a grand little filly, very sensible and quick as a wink. If all continues on as she is now, in a couple months she will be able to go out and play in the pastures again while she grows into a sound and safe performance horse.

    The before and after pictures tell it all.

    --Jenny Bennett

    The first picture is the BEFORE....the rest are after Jenny's and D.J.'s care. PICTURE 3 shows the cast still on the other toe/hoof.

    NOTE: While this filly responded well, it is because Ms. Bennett did her "Home"work and followed instructions to the "T"....keeping up on the deworming, rasping those tiny heels AND making Annie exercise. Alas, D.J. has had clients with foals just as bad that didn't do as well, simply because the owner wouldn't do their part.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



  9. #969
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    May. 13, 2008
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    497

    Default

    WOW !!! Just absolutely amazing!!! You Rock, LittleD.



  10. #970
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    Apr. 6, 2008
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    35

    Default thank you

    thank you very much. for you applause. I know Im not here much have to appologize.but tull my computer gets fixed well Im mostly out of touch. GABZ my hat goes off to you. thank you so much for standing behind this treatment. Atleast those that do dd are trying to do something for their horses and when all the expensive vet treatments dont work. well you take things in your own hands to help the ones you love.



  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrangeOne View Post
    Out of curiosity, what would be the current, COTH-approved worming program, comprehensive to include hoof worms? No, kidding on the hoof worms, but I am curious.
    What does YOUR equine vet recommend?

    EqTrainer has a very good rotation. Perhaps you can PM her and get her recommendations.
    Last edited by gabz; Jan. 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Changed Eq Law to Eq Trainer for dewormer advice



  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by little D View Post
    thank you very much. for you applause. I know Im not here much have to appologize.but tull my computer gets fixed well Im mostly out of touch. GABZ my hat goes off to you. thank you so much for standing behind this treatment. Atleast those that do dd are trying to do something for their horses and when all the expensive vet treatments dont work. well you take things in your own hands to help the ones you love.
    Um.. not me. It was ChocoMare who is the "enabler". You are the bomb LittleD for your perseverance and treatment of all the horses suffering.
    It was this thread that showed me the error of MY ways (I underestimated my horses' weights and hence, was underdosing some treatments). But it DID help 2 of my horses big time.

    Thanks LittleD!!



  13. #973
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2008
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    35

    Default vets can be wrong

    Today I showed a vet the story and pics from tennesee. He informed me that he fixes these clubbed horses with no problem with 2 day treatments of oxytetracycline. BS big time!! this has been tried many times the vets that I worked for said it didnt work period and if it did why hasnt he (the vet) used it on a client that I am working on her clubbed horses he is the vet for. unbelievable. and I get this alot. so even though you need to listen to your vets and learn. If your vet is in denial about this. you may not be getting the whole picture of other mattters.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #974
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    Aug. 31, 2004
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    VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabz View Post
    What does YOUR equine vet recommend?

    EquineLaw has a very good rotation. Perhaps you can PM her and get her recommendations.
    I was just curious, is all- I have my program but in light of all these creepies that I have never even heard of, I was wondering what the ones who are more aware of the parasites than I do.
    -Grace



  15. #975
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    ADDENDUM TO ANNIE'S STORY:

    Seems her story, photos, etc. caused quite a stir and my farrier has been getting phone calls & e-mails....all good tho!!!

    A lot of folks wanted more of Annie's "Before" story, so here it is straight from her owner, Jenny Bennett:

    I would like to say that BEFORE we did the double dose of Equimax, Annie’s pasterns Could Not Extend forward any more than they are in that picture (see above prior post).

    I stretched her leg forward and set the bottom of her foot on the ground, way out in front of her and then tried to ease her forward to where her own 350# was pushing on those tendons and ligaments. They did not give a bit. She just rolled up onto her toes and then over onto the fronts of her hooves. I could not hold her leg and using my hands, extend her toes forward where they belonged. They wouldn’t go. (of course – if her 350# was not enough to stretch them, my hands surely would not)

    After the 1st double dose of E-max, they were ‘softer’ and had a little flexibility. Not enough, but a little, and over the next 2 weeks, continued to improve. After the 2nd double dose, 2 weeks later, they were much more flexible, to the point that, with the first set of shoes/casts, right away, her pasterns were actually sloped, not vertical, or worse. They could not have if we had tried that 2 weeks earlier, while she was still ‘tight’.

    I am convinced, from what I have seen and handled every day for the last 2 months with Annie that the problem she had was these parasites, and that one way or another they interfered with the ligaments’ and tendons’ growth and function. Anyone could see that what she needed was for those feet to be encouraged to be drawn forward somehow, but what had to happen first was flexibility of those ligaments and tendons. Shoes (with nails) on little baby feet are problematic. The combination of shoes, glue and casting tape applied to encourage proper carriage, gaits, comfort and growth is the Art of Farriery.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



  16. #976
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    FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.

    You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.

    Spellings will be all wrong here as I am trying to eat my lunch and type
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  17. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.

    You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.

    Spellings will be all wrong here as I am trying to eat my lunch and type
    Is the study online or published in paper? Can you give us a link if it's online?



  18. #978
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    Sep. 22, 2005
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    Southwest WA
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    464

    Default Very Sad Update - TB Mare Died

    Quote Originally Posted by WeDoItAll View Post
    So ... the rest of the worm did come out; we didn't have to pull it. It was erupting for several days. The top of that area scabbed over, which I softened and then it came off. You could see the hole where the worm had come out, as well as about 1.5" around it where the skin had broken and is now healing. Most of the egg shaped area has reduced in swelling by at least half - it's only out from the leg (which still has some swelling) about 1/3".

    She is definitely needing the second dose ... I just wondered about the others who have (and had) no symptoms/reaction at all.

    So here's what we did -- we did three rounds of double dosing, 2 weeks apart, 4 weeks off. During this time, the weird horny growths (that she'd had for over 5 years - previously attributed to very bad mud fever) were coming off and looking much better. No further worm eruptions. After 4 weeks off, did another double dose, same leg started swelling again; did 2nd double dose and 4 days after second double dose, mare went down in field and couldn't get her rear end to work well enough to get back up.

    We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.

    First .... I am NOT saying this was directly attributable to the protocol, although I do think it had an influence.

    Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.



  19. #979
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    Oh my gosh - sorry to hear that happened.

    You did double-doses of Equimax everytime? I didn't think anyone had done more than 2 of the DDE-max. Only 2 rounds of that and then Ivermectin for follow-up.

    Of course, I don't think anyone else had erupting worms like you had.

    so sorry.


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  20. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeDoItAll View Post
    So here's what we did -- we did three rounds of double dosing, 2 weeks apart, 4 weeks off. During this time, the weird horny growths (that she'd had for over 5 years - previously attributed to very bad mud fever) were coming off and looking much better. No further worm eruptions. After 4 weeks off, did another double dose, same leg started swelling again; did 2nd double dose and 4 days after second double dose, mare went down in field and couldn't get her rear end to work well enough to get back up.

    We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.

    First .... I am NOT saying this was directly attributable to the protocol, although I do think it had an influence.

    Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.
    Oh, I'm so sorry to hear of this Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.

    ((( Hugs )))
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.



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