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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2008
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    Default Breeders, SO: Does this young colt/stallion "stand" a chance?

    I found an ad for a young stallion for sale. The seller goes on to say more about being willing to geld for the right owners / best home and so on but I got to wondering whether there is any attraction for breeding with a stallion like this? I personally don't care to own a stallion myself but I got to thinking about the stud or stallion business in general.


    Note: I've removed some additional information that isn't strictly relevant(see Yankeelawyer's note) My intentention was to provide enough peripheral info upfront to paint the clearest picture (I actually wondered fleetingly whether it was overkill) but I can see how it could appear a thoughtless act and sincerely apologize if I caused harm.

    Back to the program...

    The colt was injured and now has trauma induced wobbler syndrome. He has not yet been gelded in view of his "impeccable" blood lines, in the hope that he can be taught to ground collect.

    Would this stallion or any other non- performing or never-performed stallions with fabulous pedigrees stand a chance at a decent breeding career against the current, latest and greatest stallions on circuit?

    In the market where semen is available from all over the world what are the primary drivers that sell a stallion's breedings?
    Last edited by GGStables; Jun. 26, 2008 at 08:09 PM.



  2. #2
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    Default

    I'm not sure of a registry that would take him without either a performance or test record. I had one named a stallion prospect, just a beautiful young horse, that got hurt the day after winning Colt Champion at the AHS inspection. He's a really nice horse but I gelded him this year due to this injury even though it looks like he is making a complete recovery. It was something with his back, not able to exactly pinpoint the problem, but didn't want to put more pressure on his back with trying to breed him. Just want him rideable & happy.
    Not sure if a wobbler could handle the pressures of breeding. Personally I'd geld him & let him be a pasture ornament/pet. Just my opinion.



  3. #3
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    Central Florida
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    Default

    i may be wrong .... but I say no

    There are wayyyy to many nice stallions out there doing stuff (being approved..showing..blah blah blah) with both great bloodlines and show record. I would like to use a stallion that has awesome bloodlines and proven show record. If he is super nice i still dont think he would get that many breedings because the get wouldnt have a registry option for full papers.
    *^*^*^
    Himmlische Traumpferde
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"



  4. #4
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Default

    Honestly, I think it is poor form to post someone's ad essentially verbatim and ask for a critique. It is one thing to pose a question in the abstract and quite another to include so much detail that the horse is readily identifiable. I really hope it does not undermine the chance for this boy to go to a nice, loving home.



  5. #5
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    May. 7, 2008
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    Default

    As strange as it sounds, quality horses with injurys which preclude performance are better off if they are a mare, or stallion. Crippled geldings rarely get lucky, but breeding horses often have long happy lives.



  6. #6
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    It would completely depend on the bloodlines and individual. I would consider breeding to a stallion if he were top quality whether he had a performance record or not. But I breed hunters.
    Chris
    Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
    WWSD? (what would Suerte do?)



  7. #7
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    Default

    I'm just wondering if he can actually be used for breeding since he's a wobbler. Might be difficult. Just don't know.



  8. #8
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    Jun. 4, 2008
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    Ottawa, Ontario
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    Default

    That's just it. Do breeders consider stallions that aren't proven in some way? Even if he had bloodlines to die for?

    On a different post there was some discussion on breeders and buyers that touched on what made people buy a horse (i.e pedigree, intended use, and so forth) which kind of dovetails into this in my mind. A fellow breeder has a magnificent stallion bred up to the eyeballs but who isn't approved with the international registries (injured before that could happen) and I've quietly wondered who her clientelle would typically be.

    In another example, when I was stallion searching for my own mares, I came across a prospect standing in the Netherlands. This guy had shown some promising talent himself, had a stellar, proven pedigree but was permanently injured and very young, so no history of offspring.

    What would you do?



  9. #9
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    May. 7, 2008
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    Default

    Teasers are also handy to have. If a horse has a decent disposition. They usualy have good personalities and are fun to have around. My teaser lives out with the yearling colts and random geldings most of the time.



  10. #10
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    Nov. 5, 2000
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    Default

    My $0.02 worth -

    Most dressage breeders prefer to use approved stallions. Ditto for many jumper breeders, while hunter breeders and event breeders tend to not care as much. The stallion you referred to had a dressage pedigree, but his bloodlines are quite readily available here in North America in other stallions that ARE approved. He would therefore most likely not attract a lot of mare owners, unless you were giving away breedings for free or nearly free (as did the owners of Feuertanzer). Even then, many breeders who want registered foals are going to pass on him.

    Again, you might get breedings from hunter people, but only if the horse screams hunter (many dressage bred horses make LOVELY hunters). It's up to you as to whether you are willing to take the risk.



  11. #11
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    Yup, what Chris said above.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  12. #12
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    I am just saying that the horse might have a better chance for a happy life if he is gentle, and intact.



  13. #13
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    Well, I had something similar happen to me. I had a nice young stallion prospect with a well known sire in this area, West Coast, actually. My guy was a much lighter type, TB mom, and was an interesting prospect. We were seeing how he would develop and I already had some interest in him and bred him to several mares. Then he started rearing under saddle, I mean all the time. It was a crushing decision, but I gelded him. Some months later, he went lame and a chronic issue turned up. I am sure that was the cause of his behavior under saddle.
    I retired him at age 5, thinking, I now have a lame gelding instead of a possibly decent stallion.
    It seemed like a very bad decision in hind sight.
    For him, however, after 1 1/2 years in the pasture, somebody hopped on him one day, we started messing with him and he has had a career under saddle ever since. He will never be the horse he was born to be, but he is sound with good management, has won at Pony Club Dressage Championships and taken a kid through the A.
    I think he has a much better life than he could have had, even though I would still have kept him forever, but he also would have had a good life as a stallion, not so much a lame gelding. A rougher pasture life, instead of a pampered stallion or riding horse life.
    IF anybody is still reading.... , that is my 2 cents!



  14. #14
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    Why? Why even consider it? Too many papered talented proven stallions around and a lot easier to breed to any one of those than to manage a high risk case with all the responsiblities and heartaches that come with it. I may be wrong but do horses with wobblers last very long in this condition? Does it not get progressively worse?... Having that information available will affect your decision as well.

    Sorry if this is in any way discriminatory to a particular case, but it's been asked for opinion, nothing more. I believe responsibly a horse like this should not be offered for sale or at stud by any serious breeder. He is little more than a pet and may soon become a casualty. Maybe vets should comment here as they have the education and knowledge/experience to truly validate the status of such an animal for any useful function in time. Would you want to knowingly introduce wobbler syndrome into your breeding program? or anyone else's for that matter.

    Regarding other comments made earlier, I see no reason this topic as a topic should not be discussed. There are certainly a long list of other agendas thrown around in here that become painfully personal very regularly. I think this might even educate in making humane decisions where others may not have been able to.

    On the other hand, if a stallion were injured in performance by unfortunate circumstance, bad luck, and not licenseable by registry for this reason, yet still a very good horse with great bloodlines, wonderful temperament, the movement and type and all the bells and whistles you want in your horses, I might be more prone to choose this type of horse, and have nearly done so in the past until a more viable option came up. With that said, your stallion gets pushed a little further down the ranks still, so best advice would be get all the professional advice you can in this matter and then make your decison wisely.
    Last edited by Hocus Focus; Jun. 28, 2008 at 01:31 AM.



  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shea'smom View Post
    Well, I had something similar happen to me. I had a nice young stallion prospect with a well known sire in this area, West Coast, actually. My guy was a much lighter type, TB mom, and was an interesting prospect. We were seeing how he would develop and I already had some interest in him and bred him to several mares. Then he started rearing under saddle, I mean all the time. It was a crushing decision, but I gelded him. Some months later, he went lame and a chronic issue turned up. I am sure that was the cause of his behavior under saddle.
    I retired him at age 5, thinking, I now have a lame gelding instead of a possibly decent stallion.
    It seemed like a very bad decision in hind sight
    .

    Upon encountering the rearing problem and chromic lameness at age 5, I would have felt the bad decision was using him for breeding.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocus Focus View Post
    Regarding other comments made earlier, I see no reason this topic as a topic should not be discussed. There are certainly a long list of other agendas thrown around in here that become painfully personal very regularly. I think this might even educate in making humane decisions where others may not have been able to.
    .
    I agree 100% that the question --in the abstract, is a legitimate one, and I believe a really good way of posing it is as the OP has now revised her post.

    To answer the question -- GELD. Even among colts that are near perfect, with fabulous bloodlines and everything in their favor, I think only a small percentage should be kept intact, both for the welfare of the horse (most but not all stallions lead a solitary existence) and of the breeding industry.



  17. #17
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    This is a bit of an interesting topic and near and dear to my heart. I own a stallion who is not *yet* (optimism!) approved. He is 8yo and blind in one eye so his training fell by the wayside by prior owners. I got him in January and have basically been starting over. He is a lovely, lovely horse. Very agile and athletic, super mover and jumper, kind, sensitive, easy to handle, smart, etc. Additionally, he has fairly rare bloodlines for NA. He is a direct son of Contender out of a Polydor mare. Contender is not available in NA, Contango is dead, Contendro is available frozen, Contester is available I think, and Capone may or may not be available depending on who his real owner is or is not.

    Nothing precludes him from being a riding horse and eventually getting approved. However, even with all of this I have considered gelding him just so he can have a more "normal" life. I can't quite bring myself to do it until I really have the time to see what he can do.

    I do not know the horse's bloodlines but someone said they are readily available in NA. Additionally, are we SURE the wobbler's is from an injury and not a conformation problem that could be passed on? I think it would probably in the horse's best interests to geld him so he can be a pasture pet and have buddies and live as normal a horsey life as possible while he can. To isolate him and ask him to collect, even ground collect, seems a bit wrong to me, but again I don't know the specifics. From a theoretical perspective I would say the market for such a stallion would be zero unless he was already proven by performance and/or progreny. Hope he gets a good home/life.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  18. #18
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    Yankee Lawyer, I did not go into the details, but as I said, the lameness caused the rearing. IF you hurt, and you are a stallion, I think you would be more likely to announce it quite loudly! I believe that is what my guy was doing. It was a high, hip, pelvis lameness, not very obvious, difficult to diagnose.
    He ran into a tree as a two year old. It had nothing to do with his conformation or breeding.
    After gelding him, gradually it became evident that there was something wrong.
    anyway.... carry on.



  19. #19
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    I still think the horse would have a better chance at a good life if he is a gentle stallion than as a gentle gelding. Stallions just make more interesting pets with their interest in their surroundings, and expression. The idea of responsible breeding is a different kettle of fish. In my opinion it is the responsibility of the mare owner do decide who to breed to. He may never get a single outside mare. Maybe he will specialize in nurse mares, who knows.
    Obviously this would all swing on him being a real good sport, who plays well with others. Our teaser lives with whomever. Pregnant mares, yearlings, ponies, whatever.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGStables View Post
    ... was injured and now has trauma induced wobbler syndrome.
    Very interesting discussion, just wondered what is "trauma induced wobblers syndrome?"



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