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  1. #181
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    Sorry YL, I was writing while you were and talking about different things.

    My point is that even with someone willing to pay for the bloodlines the breeder could not have predicted the horse's eventual career as an unproven youngster
    Additionally, using the tb racehorse analogy as there is no disputing the importance of performance in that, you have offspring of highly desireable and very well proven stallions and mares that have little or no performance record of their own who stand for initial seasons at a greatly reduced rate compared with their siblings due to NOT knowing how well that particular horse can pass on it's genetic characteristics.

    Eavesdropper is a great example. A stakes winning and graded stakes performing sprinter, is half-brother to A.P. Indy and Summer Squall.
    2000, Kingmambo – Weekend Surprise, by Secretariat
    2008 fee: $7,500
    First Year at Stud: 2005

    He didn't race long due to an injury.
    His first babies are hitting the racetrack. If they do well, his fee will go up.

    Another example of a very well bred one is Mojave Moon.
    • By MR. PROSPECTOR, leading sire of over 176 stakes winners.
    • Out of champion EAST OF THE MOON (Private Account), G1 stakes winner of $695,107
    • Second dam is two-time Breeders' Cup Mile-G1 winner MIESQUE (Nureyev), champion at 2, 3 and 4. Earner of $1,971,485
    • Three-quarter brother in blood to leading sire KINGMAMBO
    • Multiple graded stakes-placed winner of $135,180 including second in the $200,000 Fayette Breeders' Cup S.-G3 and third in the $250,000 Californian S.-G2.
    He's been at stud now long enough for his foals to race. His stud fee is $2,500. Reflects that you can have proven performance in the parents, in the stallion himself but there is no guarantee that those genes are going to pass on to his offspring. A good horse, yes, but not up there with Storm Cat, Gone West, AP Indy, etc in passing on that performance.

    Why would anyone want to breed to an unproven horse with no performance in his immediate family and none of his own? It's a big gamble and, when you are talking sport horses, it's a much smaller stud fee to go to an outstanding sire and reduce the inherent risk.

    I know that, if I want to take a chance, I'll go with a CANTER horse or some other OTTB where the price is smaller, the wait shorter and be damned if that $75,000 its breeder paid in stud fee matters 'cause I'm not racing. That was their loss.
    Last edited by Everythingbutwings; Jul. 3, 2008 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Apology to YankeeLawyer
    "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everythingbutwings View Post
    Sorry YL, I was writing while you were and talking about different things.

    No apology needed! The pedigrees you posted are interesting. Has Mojave Moon shown any potential as a sporthorse sire? I don't breed TBs but I like to follow the interesting ones (I love Coconut Grove, for example).



  3. #183
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    ...and I am not talking about breeding to unproven animals; I don't know why that keeps coming up.
    Because there are more than a few breeders, some of whom post on COTH, who stand horses that have done nothing. Zip, zero, zilch. In many cases they have bizarre colouring so in their opinions, that makes them worthy of reproducing. And these same breeders tend to be the most vocal in criticising their competition, and anyone who doesn't think their breeding program is a quality one.

    In general, you have people standing stallions who have done nothing (can't afford it, don't have time, pick an excuse, etc.), breeding to mares who have only been baby makers and never done anything themselves, and trying to sell the offspring at performance horse prices and wondering why no one will look at their young stock as a performance horse?



  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    But would you rather be the clever one that bought the unproven youngster for 10K or the one that paid 100K after it had show miles.
    Ah, but that's the point many are trying to argue here. I'd rather be the one who picks it up at $10k when I can see it move and what it looks like as an adult vs. paying the $1 million as an untested yearling. Not too many here are arguing not purchasing green horses (ex: an OTTB, or a 4 YO import) that are started and ready to move up to competition levels. Rather, few want to spend money on 1-3 year olds who will require board, vet care, etc. with almost no riding advantage in the forseeable future. Especially if the parents did not do much in their own lives.
    "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiramit View Post
    Ah, but that's the point many are trying to argue here. I'd rather be the one who picks it up at $10k when I can see it move and what it looks like as an adult vs. paying the $1 million as an untested yearling. Not too many here are arguing not purchasing green horses (ex: an OTTB, or a 4 YO import) that are started and ready to move up to competition levels. Rather, few want to spend money on 1-3 year olds who will require board, vet care, etc. with almost no riding advantage in the forseeable future. Especially if the parents did not do much in their own lives.
    I agree that when I am shopping for H/J prospects that I want to see that baby cakes can jump, so in general, I don't buy those guys as wee ones. But, I think you can see dressage aptitude very early on, and I am personally very comfortable picking prospects for that discipline at a very young age. I also have been doing this a long time and have a very clear idea of what works for me and what doesn't. So for me I am not viewing the yearling as the 1 million untested horse, I am viewing it as the 10K unproven youngster that has good potential to be 100K when made up.



  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    No apology needed! The pedigrees you posted are interesting. Has Mojave Moon shown any potential as a sporthorse sire? I don't breed TBs but I like to follow the interesting ones (I love Coconut Grove, for example).
    Since I'm about to look at a Mojave Moon baby this weekend, I've seen a few stats. One baby of his, in particular, was Best Young Horse at Upperville in 2007 and was 2nd at Devon in the same year.

    I also noticed that his breeders dropped his stud fee to the $2500 ETBW mentioned in her post. I think it was at $7500 prior to that. Have no clue what it was at after he won some big stakes races. There's a lot of data on how well his offspring are doing in the racing industry (very well) but my little independent study isn't showing much in terms of the H/J world just yet.

    "If you have the time, spend it. If you have a hand, lend it. If you have the money, give it. If you have a heart, share it." by me



  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anyplace Farm View Post
    Since I'm about to look at a Mojave Moon baby this weekend, I've seen a few stats. One baby of his, in particular, was Best Young Horse at Upperville in 2007 and was 2nd at Devon in the same year.

    I also noticed that his breeders dropped his stud fee to the $2500 ETBW mentioned in her post. I think it was at $7500 prior to that. Have no clue what it was at after he won some big stakes races. There's a lot of data on how well his offspring are doing in the racing industry (very well) but my little independent study isn't showing much in terms of the H/J world just yet.
    That is really interesting, thanks.



  8. #188
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    <Dear God, I have spend my entire eveing with this thread, not the lovely Chianti I had intended!>

    Now that chatter has drifted to racing, I feel a comparison is in order. Working in racing I can without much more than a Form or a copy of a sales catalog, get an idea of the value of a horse. The auction ring does an amazing job of properly pricing young stock. I know that sometimes freaks sell for next to nothing and many high priced babies are slooooow. Generally though, the market is about right. Once a horse is racing, since about 85% of races are claiming races, again it's simple to establish a guideline as to value.
    As a buyer, I find it confusing if you are willing to change the price based on conditions. If I will show him, he's cheaper? How is it that your $10k 2yo is suddenly a $4k baby because I will be showing. If I'm looking for a $4k baby and your ad says $10k (or "call for pricing") I'm not calling you! I don't want to insult you by lowballing. If a "forever home" is a pre-condition, that's even tougher. Wow! If he turns into a star hunter/Eq horse/jumper and someone offers me a life altering sum, I don't want to be guilt ridden for saying "pay the lady!" I want to take the $$$ and I assure you I will sing the praises of your breeding operation as I gallop to the bank!

    While I am sure that US breeders are producing very nice horses each year, I see some issues. First as someone (MistyBlue?) stated, most buyers are ammy's shopping with trainers so if a breeder has no connections with trainers who deal in show ready stock and operate out of training or boarding/show barns, they are lost. Breeders need to cultivate relationships with trainers.
    Breeders who are selling saddle ready stock (2+ years old) need to get them started someplace. Those places (if not at the breeders' barns) need to have connections to show trainers too. European breeders use big training centers that funnel horses to big show stables and/or overseas buyers.

    Breeders, I know it sounds cold but you are producing a crop, a commodity. You need to rationally evaluate the results of each mating and price your young horses based on what they are currently worth. Take into account the market, soundness, conformation and action. Market your babies and be professional. If someone is prepared to to hand you the asking price for your colt or filly, it might not be a good time to ask for 6 references, what kind of hay they feed and how many hours of turnout will they get? If you treat the SALES process as if you were adopting out your firstborn child, you will lose customers. You are breeding horses and if you hope to sell them (which as a professional breeders, I presume you do!) you must be willing to relinquish control of them.
    Breeders, don't act like every buyer is likely to abuse and torture your little babies, don't assume that because you love them that everyone else should, don't play pricing games and don't hide on the far periphery of the local equine community and wonder why no one is coming to you. Treat buyers with respect, participate in local horse activity, network with other professionals and be willing to sell your stock and you will do well.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  9. #189
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    Linny, you make some very good points.


    Regarding situations where breeders might lower the price for a show home versus a non-show home, those that do that have apparently made a determination that an owner that will invest in the horses development and get it out there for people to be seen has a quantifiable value. A horse that has proven performance success and a happy owner is probably one of the best advertisements possible for the breeder. So, some breeders are prepared to offer an incentive for that as reflected in the purchase price. That horse becomes sort of a loss leader. Other breeders might offer incentives such as a gift or a check for various significant wins, for example, say $500 to the owner for a year end title. I actually think that is a better type of incentive because (1) it treats all buyers the same at the time of purchase, so it seems more fair; and (2) it avoids punishing the honest buyer who flat out admits they just want the horse for fun and unfairly rewarding one that exagerrates any intent to campaign the horse.

    Regarding vetting the prospective home for the horse:I have certainly witnessed instances of wholly inappropriate lines of questioning from sellers (marital status, income, what you eat for breakfast, you name it). That approach is creepy, invasive, and downright rude.

    But, I do think that sellers have an obligation to do some amount of due diligence before selling a horse, because, for one thing, you may very well have liability exposure if you sell one that turns out to be unsuitable for the buyer. You have to be especially careful with very young horses in that regard. I would not, for example, sell a foal to someone to be a cute pet for their 5 year old kid. Nor would I sell one to a rank beginner who plans to raise it without any guidance from a more experienced person. It would not be good for me, the buyer, or the horse. If it is not a match, the buyer will end up hating me and saying my program sucks. And if I were to sell them an unsuitable horse, I would deserve it.


    Regarding things like feed and whatnot, I think many of those decisions are personal, subjective, and there is not necessarily one correct way. With respect to youngsters in particular, they do have specific nutritional needs and there are some basic dos and don'ts. I wouldn't interrogate someone about what they feed, but I might very well simply explain the horse's current program, make some recommendations, and recommend that they take the advice of their own vet and/or nutritionist.

    I don't have to sell anything I breed, and I do care where the horses go. If I did not, I would simply drop them off at the nearest auction where I have no control over who purchases the horse and not give it a second thought.



  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    I... I am personally very comfortable picking prospects for that discipline at a very young age. I also have been doing this a long time and have a very clear idea of what works for me and what doesn't. ...
    YL I only wanted to comment on part of your post so apologies in advance if this make your comment less clear.

    YL expresses exactly why when I purchase another horse I will have the help/support of my trainer. I don't have confidence in my own eye/mind/evaluations that I will pick a horse correctly. I haven't spent 40 years evaluating horses with performance in mind, so there are lots of aspects to them that I just don't see.



  11. #191
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    lesyl, most riders are in your category. I ride at a barn that does A shows, Local A's and some local stuff and most of the clients are women between 35 and 60. Some are more knowledgable than others but I can't think of even one that would go out and shop, especially for an unstarted horse, on their own.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesyl View Post
    YL I only wanted to comment on part of your post so apologies in advance if this make your comment less clear.

    YL expresses exactly why when I purchase another horse I will have the help/support of my trainer. I don't have confidence in my own eye/mind/evaluations that I will pick a horse correctly. I haven't spent 40 years evaluating horses with performance in mind, so there are lots of aspects to them that I just don't see.
    That is totally a fair point, and I really think most people should shop with their trainers, even if they are confident in their ability to pick their own, because ultimately the rider, trainer, and horse have to be a team. It really is no fun (to say the least) if you come home with a horse your trainer doesn't like and is not enthusiastic about training. Better to get the trainer on board from the get go, in many cases. And for riding horses, it is always best to at least have a trusted ground person with you to watch your try out and give feedback. What might feel like a great jump, for example, might in fact look pretty bad from the ground.



  13. #193
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    A trainer's eyes help...or even the help of an experienced second rider...to help the buying rider to avoid Shopping Mania. It's not unusual for a shopping buyer to get overly excited when looking and aren't always subjective.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldenburg Mom View Post
    There is so much that can be done by phone, mail and internet. Plus, the big advantage in dealing with breeders is (hel-lo) since they've bred the ones they're trying to sell, the majority cannot have the truth stretched. Show records for in hand classes are readily available online and I keep every single test from all their shows. Easy to take a look ...

    Heck, where's the link to the CoTH breeders directory? (I'm going to go look)

    Ok, and look, here's the deal on CT: NONE in the CoTH directory, but 12 in Maryland, 3 in NJ and 7 in NY. Within a relatively short drive, you're got 22 farms. Aren't they worth a telephone call????
    Don't forget the breeders in eastern PA - that brings the totals to closer to 30 farms (just listed on COTH alone).



  15. #195
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    Late coming in to this thread, and I still have to read a bit, but I wanted to comment on a few things.

    We may not ride the papers, but pedigree is very important to choosing a young horse. Jumping is VERY heritable. That is why so many big time jumper breeders have great success. Breeders would LOVE to prove that to you, but to do that we need tracking. When we have a ONE number system, PROVEN pedigree, and results available from all horses, ALL classes, at ALL shows, like they do in Europe, the results will help people to choose the most suitable horse. Nevada has sired several Hunter Breeding winners including MD Horse & Pony show, Upperville, and Warrenton, but he has never gotten a "sire" single point. The winners were not "showing for points", so they were not USEF recorded for those shows. The same goes for the youngsters showing in Pre-Greens. Not a division that they track or give points for, so NO sire points for him for Hunters either. SO much information is missing from our ?system? that could help buyer, seller, AND breeder.

    While we are on that subject, the "results" that ARE kept are not accurate. A couple of years ago, I took 2 of my youngsters (one by each stallion) to Dressage at Devon. They both placed really well, and BOTH were lifetime USEF & USDF Recorded. Another Nevada son was also showing, and won his class - again, lifetime recorded. The points for just those were not right. Two out of the 3 had no points listed for sire. Yes, I could have corrected them, but that would be correcting results for the THREE I know about. I can't do that for the other almost 200 youngsters out there that my stallions have sired. I don't know their names, who owns them, or what they are doing. When I email to the owners I KNOW, I get great responses about how much they LOVE their horses, and a promise to take some pictures soon. Some of these people are showing, but I guess they really don't think it is important to let me know what classes, and how they did. Many forget to even tell me the horse's new "show name".

    Pricing. I have always listed my prices at the expected selling price, and it says that right on my website. I have only dropped a price once because the colt was injured (fractured leg). All others have sold at full price, but I believe my prices have been "pre-negotiated". I do my OWN thinking to come up with the lowest price I will sell, and that is what I list. It has gained me a few top trainers as fans, and they check my site for horses now.



  16. #196
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    Thanks all of you breeders, riders and trainers for the discussion in this thread. It has helped me think through what I am thinking about for a next horse, how much leg-work/review of prospects I need to consider and some new places to look.

    I have discussed with my trainer the possiblity of looking at horses from breeders, but first she and I need to discuss more about what sort of horse I need including cost and ability limitations. I am so not a tirekicker sort of person so I won't be contacting breeders/sellers about horses unless I am really interested. I need to figure out what questions to ask and then based on the responses etc. figure out which I would like to have my trainer help me with in further review.



  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    When we have a ONE number system, PROVEN pedigree, and results available from all horses, ALL classes, at ALL shows, like they do in Europe, the results will help people to choose the most suitable horse.
    Another point here to consider, and thank you for your well thought-out post, FHC: because they're tracking performance in Europe, do ya think they just might breed accordingly?

    Lesyl, you know breeders aren't monsters ... they can be friends! You might consider PM'ing one of the ones close to you ... just for some education. I find I ask many many for help and there isn't a one that isn't willing to help!
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  18. #198
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    Well, FHC, I looked at your website. If all the US breeders were like you, I'd take back everything I wrote above I'm glad you understand buyers shouldn't have to guess or negotiate for a fair price.



  19. #199
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    Linny, great post. I just bought a 1/4 Irish filly a few months ago from a breeder that almost pushed me over the edge. In the end, I was feeling guilty about ripping this 2yo from her home and herd. I even offered NOT to buy her if it was too stressful on the owner. This was her first sale, I believe, and I even asked her "Are you sure you want to be a breeder?"

    On the other hand, I have a wonderful TB gelding for sale, and while I will be very careful not to put a buyer through what I went through buying this filly, I will definitely ask about turnout as that is such an important thing to me. I've decided possibly I'm TOO honest about my horses, but I want them to have the best home, and misrepresentation does not help in that matter at all. I've kind of decided if he sells he sells, but I'm liking him too much to really care if he does or not, lol. And that's the time to sell right? When you're really not sure you want to.
    We're spending our money on horses and bourbon. The rest we're just wasting.
    www.dleestudio.com



  20. #200
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    It is really more important to me to have them go to someone that loves them, and they will be a special partner, rather than a famous show horse, although I will never be famous or rich with this attitude.

    I just had one of mine that was owned by an "I" Dressage judge, and ridden and shown by another GP rider and Judge sell to a kid. Before he went to his new home, he qualified for the BLM Championshnips in his very first ever test/show with a 67.6% just a week before his 4th birthday. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...EIWyrgLjiNzXDg

    Although I know he could have really moved up the levels if he had stayed where he was, the kid and her family just LOVE him, and that thrills me. This video that was posted by her friend makes me smile. This was her tryout. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...dressage&hl=en

    Of course, blue ribbons are nice too. (a week after they got him) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllCILS1Vm8
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Jul. 8, 2008 at 09:01 PM.



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