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  1. #61
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    Sep. 12, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    I am quite sure the change in her diet would bother me more than it would bother her.
    Most dogs would probably think think they were being spoiled!



  2. #62
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    Jan. 15, 2003
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    The problem with a poor economy is that there is no second job
    Sure there are.

    I see "Help Wanted" signs where ever I go. All of our subcontractors complain that they can't find enough help (cleaning, landscaping, painting, carpentry, repair, maintenance, etc., etc.)...no one wants to work. That is reality. I see young healthy teenagers walking the malls every day talking on cell phones instead of working summer jobs like we did. Healthy adult males walking the streets in the middle of the day.

    One friend that owns a cleaning business (he works full time as a maintenance manager by day, runs his cleaning business at night...btw, he is a black high school drop out and a millionaire, by the way , due to hard work and smart investments) has guys that quit every 2 weeks. They get one paycheck and use it to buy drugs until they run out of money again. His nighttime office cleaning business would make a PERFECT second job for someone down on their luck needing a little help in these "hard times".

    Now, if you have no job skills to get that second job (or the first, in many cases), again, not my problem. With all of the educational opportunities in this country, there are no excuses. It is much easier for a child of a low-income family to attend tech school or college than it will be mine (I am middle class, not wealthy) as we will have to pay for our kids education. If you are willing to work hard, there is plenty of on-the-job training (see example in second paragraph).

    No excuses, people. My grandfather was raised by his widowed mother (died when he was 10 months old). She raised 5 children during the depression when there was NO welfare. The ate the table scraps that other families were kind enough to give them. My grandfather had a 5th grade education but managed to own his own home, own 3 businesses and take his entire family on Florida vacations every summer.

    It CAN be done. Our society is in need of little suffering. We have too much. We whine too much. We scream "Gimme gimme gimme" too much. We are spoiled. Our poor live better than most people in many other countries. If things were so bad, our poor wouldn't have cell phones, tvs, air conditioning and nice vehicles. Drive through any low-income neighborhood around here and you'll see all of that. Go find that in a town in Haiti. Those folks would love to live like our "less fortunate".



  3. #63
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    Jul. 27, 2007
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    Behind the Orange Curtain
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelladonnaLily View Post
    It is much easier for a child of a low-income family to attend tech school or college than it will be mine (I am middle class, not wealthy) as we will have to pay for our kids education. If you are willing to work hard, there is plenty of on-the-job training (see example in second paragraph).
    I would just challenge you to walk through your life today and look at the little ways in which your life, and the life of your children, differs from the life of someone who is raised in poverty. Think about how that might change your parenting (having to have both parents, or the only custodial parent, work two jobs and be away, but unable to afford childcare for example). Think about the small advantages your kids get- a trip to the museum, a trip to the beach, the experience of animals on a farm. By the time your children are adults, their brains will actually look different from the brain of a child raised in an impoverished, understimulated environment.

    Every day that you take your kids out to take care of the horses, you are teaching them problem solving skills and sparking their love for learning. When they go to a clean, safe school their love for learning is reinforced. By the time they get to college, they will already be well on their way to being contributors to societal wellbeing. Take all of those advantages you've given them (both by way of being able to afford it and being able to be present in their lives) away, and their road to financial freedom becomes twice as hard.

    Now, of course, there are plenty of people who have all of the advantages and are still lazy slugs. Those are the people you should be kicking in the pants



  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2008
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    Latvia
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    920

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    OK, back to OP. Dogs or cats can be fluffy small creatures, and somebody very silly can get into it without an idea... It could happen. But what I can not understand is "10 yo, UNBROKEN". Horse is not a cheap pleasure, and who would like to keep a horse for 10 years without training???? WHY?

    Please, explain me that, I really can not understand that. Horss need vaccines, hoofs trimmed, teeth checked... all these things. How it can be done for 10 years if horse is untouchable?
    ** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB*** member



  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2007
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    4,227

    Unhappy

    Bluey, I get those "Old horse" calls too. It makes me so sad. Here they have had the horse for a dozen years or more - had many a good time on their backs. And now when Poco NEEDS TLC they just cast them off as so much trash. Sad Sad Sad

    I take as many as I can to use in my quiet camp and lesson programs. i spoil them rotten with all the TLC I can and put them to rest when they are no longer able to do the deal. I cry the tears the LTO(long term owner) should have cried. Geez i know what it's like to have to take it easy on a senior citizen, horse and human. To know their gifts are now in all they know and all they use to do - not in what they currently can do. TREASURES! Dearer than gold or silver too me and my students.

    It just PISSES me OFF! When people cast their golden oldies away. I get it - It costs money. But when is the love? Where is the compassion? Spend a few bucks and have them euthanized. Donate them to the University for a short humane study. Don't just wash your hands of them. I see this with old dogs, old cats, and Elderly people too So SAD!!!!
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar. 13, 2007
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    California
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    334

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelladonnaLily View Post

    I see "Help Wanted" signs where ever I go. All of our subcontractors complain that they can't find enough help (cleaning, landscaping, painting, carpentry, repair, maintenance, etc., etc.)...no one wants to work. That is reality. I see young healthy teenagers walking the malls every day talking on cell phones instead of working summer jobs like we did. Healthy adult males walking the streets in the middle of the day.
    The store I work at is hiring like crazy. We can't keep anyone on - they either flunk the drug tests, have no concept of appropriate behavior (I.E., Telling a customer to 'wait a sec' because you're on the phone with your girlfriend, when cellphones aren't even allowed on the sales floor, then complaining to corporate that the manager is harassing you because you got in trouble for it), or just don't want to work.

    One of the college kids I work with just gave notice. He has no real job skills, can't show up on time to save his life, is totally unable to multi-task (you mean I have to handle walk-ins AND answer phones??? ) and is only in the first few months of his first semester at school, so no degrees at all, but feels that he deserves at least 15-20 an hour. I about died laughing.



  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jun. 26, 2001
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    California
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    1,319

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    I had a 'friend' call and tell me that she has a free horse for me recently. I was like WTF? You know I can't ride anymore my back is trashed! Oh this horse is really old and they just want a good home for it, it's not for riding. Oh ok I'll just put it up in the guest bedroom and saw the door in half so he can look out.

    The people who own it belong to 2 different country clubs, drive a mercedes and a lexus, live in a 1.2 million dollar house. But apparently they can't afford to keep the old boy at the stable anymore. It was their kids horse who has since grown up, moved away and ditched horse and bills with mom and dad.

    Since I was a horseperson I'm supposed to just take this horse? I'm supposed to pay it's bills? HELLO IS ANYONE IN THERE???? Clueless freakin idiots.

    I told my friend to have them call me. . . they did. . . they will probably never speak to me again. hehehehehehehehe. What asshats. I told them to put the thing down humanely since it is are you ready for this . . .32 freakin years old and has been costing them a ton in vet bills. Soooo folks have the dear old boy euthanized. Now I'm the asshat for wanting to "kill" their horse. We really really need a headdesk emoticon!!!!
    Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!



  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Lorena, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    People aren't born with equal problem-solving ability, and they aren't born into environments that give them equal opportunity to learn self-help skills. It is sad but true. Not saying that we need to take on the responsibility of caring for them, but I don't think they choose to be in that situation, I think they make poor choices because they don't know any better.
    Good points. And to add to that - sometimes the people who are in dire straights are holding onto their animals because they feel that's all they have left. I saw it with a friend (whose three horses now live with me). She really, really struggled and we and a few other friends helped her out. She KNEW she should sell the last horses, but they were a tie to her husband who preceded her and a reminder of a much better time. Was she foolish? Maybe so... but it is hard to look at someone whose entire family has preceded her in death, who is undergoing chemo and knows it is likely a losing battle, who has lost her house and seen her dog die... and then chastise her for hanging on to the one thing she had left. I might SAY I wouldn't do that or couldn't do that, that I would find homes for them, but until I walk that road.. who knows what I would do?
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com



  9. #69
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Lorena, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaCrew View Post
    OK, back to OP. Dogs or cats can be fluffy small creatures, and somebody very silly can get into it without an idea... It could happen. But what I can not understand is "10 yo, UNBROKEN". Horse is not a cheap pleasure, and who would like to keep a horse for 10 years without training???? WHY?

    Please, explain me that, I really can not understand that. Horss need vaccines, hoofs trimmed, teeth checked... all these things. How it can be done for 10 years if horse is untouchable?
    It isn't getting done. For example, I had a dog/cat rescue call us wanting us to take four horses that SO dropped off at her rescue. One is a teenaged mare who isn't halter broke, but was bred over and over again, and likely has never had any of that stuff done. And her offspring aren't halter broke, either. You can't even TOUCH two of them.

    We've taken in a herd of 25, herd of 15, herd of 10, etc - all in similar circumstances. Those people who aren't halter-breaking their horses don't HAVE routine work done.
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com



  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2001
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
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    878

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodland View Post
    WHAT THE H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS AM I SUPPOSED TO HELP THEM SELL????? I told her "Ma'am you need to call a meat buyer, these animals are not salvageable in my opinion". She go so PISSED. I said "What did you think was going to happen to these animals when you bred indiscriminately AND FAILED to train them properly????!" "I can not, would not help you even if I could." And i hung up.

    Followed by another caller "I have a 20 yr old mare that i have had for 15 years with EPM I do not want any more. I would like to donate her into your riding camp program." I just said "No thanks. You should be kind and put the poor thing down if you won't properly care for her." and hung up -

    Honestly people WAKE UP! Don't have horses if you can not or will not properly care for them - then do not be pissed at me when I tell you I can not help you DING BATS!
    Or you could say to each one - "Sure, the cost is $xxxx (cost of humane disposal plus $xx for your time) - bring the money when you deliver the horse if you want me to take him/her/it/them on". If/when they do bring horse/s, you unload them into suitable facility, ensure previous owner signs watertight hand-over documentation, wave bye-bye to owners and phone your local humane disposal person. I'm either a pragmatist or a hard-hearted %^&*(*&^% (depending on your POV), but I say humane disposal is the way to go if people truly can't care for their animals.



  11. #71
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    Mar. 20, 2005
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    Lexington, KY
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    Ambrey, I appreciate the thoughtful points that you make in your posts. However, I think that many people who think of themselves as poor or struggling in this country are still living pretty well. I doubt that very many of the people we are discussing in this thread who are getting rid of their horses/dogs/cats have given up their TV, cable service, air conditioning, or cigarettes. They are simply being forced to choose, and when it comes down to it, they would prefer to get rid of the animals rather than doing without other things.

    I see it all the time in my line of work, people who can't "afford" a $15 medication, but somehow mysteriously they are able to afford two packs of cigarettes a day...



  12. #72
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    Aug. 7, 2007
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    1,193

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    exit strategy. we all need one for ourselves and our horses(and pets).
    my retired guy will be euthanized and buried on my friends farm when his time comes.



  13. #73
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    Apr. 28, 2000
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    1,174

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    Ambrey great posts and thank you for pointing out that there could be another way to look at things.

    Not excusing animal neglect and starvation, but I firmly agree not everyone is capable of overcoming all odds and economic misfortunes in all circumstances. Sometimes there just isn't a good answer, and all the righteous indignation in the world isn't gonna change that.

    The OP's situation is totally and I know there are tons of those happening every day. But, not everyone giving up an animal is a heartless, lazy opportunist.
    *****
    Don\'t worry, be Haffy



  14. #74
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2004
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    New Zealand
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    I think that the biggest problem for people is that the consequences are 9 months too late. If sex was as painful as giving birth there would be far fewer families with mutiple dads, or mothers who don't know who the father is.

    A paediatrician friend and I concocted a great plan for population control. Contraceptives are in all fast foods, coke, beer. Anyone can get the antidote for the contraceptive, but you and your partner must take it in the same place (2 halves of a pill?) at the same time, every day for 3 months, before the woman can conceive. Then children are really planned.



  15. #75
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    I had a long reply that got eaten, but I also like ambry's posts.

    FYI...food stamp allowance is roughly equal to $1 per person per day. Have you ever tried to feed youself on $1 a day? I doubt it's easy. Yes, we do need more responsiblity and better birth control needs to be practiced, but that starts with education (*cough*abstinence only*cough, cough*). How many people on this thread put their time where their mouth is as far as mentoring (taxes don't count)? Big Brothers/Big Sisters?

    And, I really think we are talking about two different groups of people: 1. those that know better and have education that make dumb decisions or choose not to do the right thing and 2. those that don't have education or opportunities. It likely isn't people in the last group trying to give up horses (unless I've somehow missed all the barns and pasture in the inner city and housing projects).

    Caitlin
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  16. #76
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    Jul. 27, 2007
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    Behind the Orange Curtain
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMare01 View Post
    And, I really think we are talking about two different groups of people: 1. those that know better and have education that make dumb decisions or choose not to do the right thing and 2. those that don't have education or opportunities. It likely isn't people in the last group trying to give up horses (unless I've somehow missed all the barns and pasture in the inner city and housing projects).
    Yes, of course. Every economic group has its share of turds But don't judge the whole group by the turds, any more than you'd want to be judged by the worst of your own socioeconomic group.



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 1999
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    Holland Township, NJ
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    There *are* jobs if people are willing to work, period. Not all are particularly attractive, some don't pay terribly well. OTOH, if people are willing to work they generally are able to KEEP the job they already have.

    I ran a barn in a somewhat urban area for a while. I ran away screaming eventually. I had plenty of problems just getting barn help, much less keeping them. The best ones? One was just looking to get a foot in a door so he could get in a union (county owned barn) but he did his work, did it well and willingly. Two were single moms and were SMART enough to do a job that wasn't particularly glamourous but it paid well enough. In other words, they did what they needed to do to put food on the table.

    Ya know, if his application is approved (and I can't see why not), my SO will be handed a job offer on Monday that will pay about $2500 a week. Driving a truck. We will have to squeeze some blood from the turnip to get either our tractor ready to run or buy another one that is... But yeah, $2500 a week, plus a bit more to offset fuel costs. That will still be close to double what he grosses now working two jobs and he will actually be home at night. You don't even need a GED to get a CDL folks. Company drivers make less but they don't need to own (or maintain) a truck. There are ALWAYS driving jobs.

    Due to a lack of sufficient planning and a lack of affordable houseing (when I needed it, any way) we were homeless for about 2 months in '01. We figured it OUT! Lucky and Beamer had a barn with plenty of grass and good fencing. We lived in a camper in a friend's back yard. Bad things do happen, but you roll with it, not give up. An apartment did eventually come around that wasn't $300 more than we could pay, and off we went. So yeah, I don't want to hear about it. These things DO NOT happen over night.


    One gets plenty of notice before one gets thier house foreclosed on. Even if you are only renting you get notice that you are in trouble. In NJ you are dragged into court before you get tossed out of a rental. And at that point you should already be able to figure out that you are getting tossed based on the fact that you aren't paying your rent or have otherwise not met the obligations in your lease. It's not rocket science. Heck you don't even need to be too terribly smart to understand that if you don't pay your rent/mortgage/car payment on time that it will be taken away from you.

    Banks and other lenders have a finger in this mortgage problem, but if *your* eyes are too big for your stomach, then who's really to blame? If your income can only supporrt a $125k condo, then don't buy a $450k mini mansion. And certainly don't be surprised when a balloon payment comes due or the interest rates change and your variable rate mortgage shoots thru the stratosphere. In a word, DUH.

    Maybe I *don't* really know what it's like to live below the poverty level. But I've been down, trust me. Like when we only had one functioning vehicle and I needed it to get to my Dad's funeral. Poor Mike litterally drove our old horse van to work. At a hospital. Until the batteries quit. That was a fun week. But my horses ate EXACTLY the same.

    Pregant dogs really burn my buns. If you are too cheap to get her fixed then atleast keep her away from unaltered males. Asshat. Double asshat if you then dump the poor creature at the pound because you've screwed up and can't afford her any more.

    Watch Animal Police on the Animal Planet channel. You see people SQUATTING on other peoples property who have MULTIPLE dogs. AAHHHAAAAAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! WTF? You dont' even have a legal residence and you are animal hording. I can't wrap my brain around that one.

    I will gladly spend money on my animal's feed and eat eggs and noodles myself. Been there, done that. My cats and dog think it's great when I forget to get them kibble and resort to giving them fried eggs in the AM. Those 6 chickens are good for something.



  18. #78
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 1999
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    Holland Township, NJ
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    2,699

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    Oh, wait. for got something....

    Opportunities... If you WANT something, you really can have it. Don't blame where or how you were raised for ANYTHING.

    Did anyone watch the new 'reality' doctor show tonight? The Hispanic neurologist is Mexican. He came from the stereotypical poor family background. He litterally climbed the fence and started his life in the US as an illegal farm worker. He wanted more, he got more. He's a friggn' doctor now, in a highly specialized area practicing at John's Hopkin's for heaven's sake!



  19. #79
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    Jul. 2, 2002
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    North Island, New Zealand
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    Quote Originally Posted by flypony74 View Post
    I had a conversation on Tuesday with a church pastor who told me that he has a 30+ year old horse who has been steadily dropping weight. I told him that he needed to get a vet out to eval the horse and see what the best option is for the old guy....may just need some medical attention (which hasn't happened in years), or it may be nearing time for a humane ending. When I mentioned the vet, he cringed, and said that the last time he had the vet out several years ago, it was $100.....he clearly didn't want to spend the money. Then he asked me about how you horse down, and I explained that the vet comes out, administers the injection, and he'll need the backhoe guy. He asked me how much all of this costs, and I told him that when all was said and done, probably several hundred dollars, but that this is right thing to do for his old friend when the time comes. He proceeds to ask me if there is a GLUE FACTORY or a place that will take him so he doesn't have to spend the money on euthanasia! I was horrified. I told him that no, the glue factory won't come pick up your horse, but you can always sell him for pennies at the local sale, where the meat man will buy him, truck him to Mexico, and provided that he even survives the trip, he'll be killed with a captive bolt to the brain which may or may not work the first time. My tone of voice at that time clearly conveyed how horrified I was at his lack of compassion for this old horse, so I hope I made an impression and he will do the right thing. I plan to regularly ask him how the horse is doing so maybe that will spur him into proper action.

    Some people....
    Oh my god!

    I am a vetnurse at a small animal clinic. Just yesterday we had a pastor come in with his cat and pretty much had the exact same conversatioN! He didn't want to pay the $60 to euth the cat, and so was going to take it home and drown it in a bucket. The vet thankfully did the deed in the end, but man, what the heck is it with people!!!!!

    If it weren't for the fact I live in NZ, I'd think we know the same pastor!



  20. #80
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    Jan. 15, 2003
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    I would just challenge you to walk through your life today and look at the little ways in which your life, and the life of your children, differs from the life of someone who is raised in poverty.

    Ummm, my father was raised in EXTREME poverty. My paternal grandfather worked on farms, moving from here to there. My father says he would have blisters on his feet from wearing shoes too small. So most of they year, he went barefoot. But my father and his brother got their tails whipped if they did something bad (my father blew the toilets off the school wall once ). Stealing wasn't tolerated. They knew better. All 5 children grew into law-abiding, moral adults. One passed away, still married to his high school sweetheart, and the other 4 are still married to their original spouses. Raised their chilren without public assistance. All had good jobs with good retirement. Not a college education in the bunch. Morality doesn't require money. There are poor people with morals too. I just believe their are fewer and fewer of them because our society is telling them it is acceptable, because they are "less fortunate".

    Now, my mother was raised middle-class but BOTH parents were dirt poor growing up. Her father was the 5th grade graduate and I believe my grandmother got through the 7th grade. Her father was a railroad worker with a hernia that worked until his death at 76 with a board strapped to his abdomen.

    So, while I was not raised in poverty, that was because my parents and grandparents didn't let poverty control their future.



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