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  1. #1
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    Mar. 28, 2001
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    Default Inbreeding or close Linebreeding

    In light of the other thread here is an example of a TB family that was produced by using very close linebreeding or linbreeding. Call it what you wish.

    Domino and his son Commando were both good racehorses and sadly, both died young leaving a limited number of sons and daughters.

    Here's Commando's pedigree, Note that there is a lot of Lexington
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/commando

    Commando's successful stallion son Ultimus was produced by breeding Commando to Running stream, a daughter of Domino.
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/ultimus

    To take things a step futher Ultimus was bred to Noonday who was another Domino daughter. This produced High Time who was a succesful sire in his own right.
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/high+time

    Anybody have any examples that worked or didn't work? Arabs? Warmbloods?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,409

    Default

    Here is a good example.

    His name is Big Brown

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

    I think it worked, except for his feet.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    Default

    I like breed an Obelisk daughter to an Obelisk grandson, and is has been a phenominal cross for me.

    6 examples

    http://peggyjsmith.com/07xRMSPalbum/slides/RMSPx08-1503.html
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  4. #4
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    Default

    grand-to-grand is a preferred breeding for two of my mentors. One is an extremely knowledgeable Arabian breeder, the other was a fabulously successful breeder of hunters & sporthorses, one of the first in the US to use WBs in hunters.

    It seems especially useful in crossing back after outcrossing.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  5. #5
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    Default

    The dictionary defines INBREEDING as :
    inbreeding
    noun
    Date:
    circa 1842

    1 : the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock 2 : confinement to a narrow range or a local or limited field of choice

    and LINEBREEDING as:
    Main Entry:
    line·breed·ing
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    circa 1879

    : the interbreeding of individuals within a particular line of descent usually to perpetuate desirable characters


    I truly believe there is a difference. Linebreeding is crossing horses with similar ancertries (as in "cousins", or horses with similar lines. INBREEDING is crossing horses within the SAME lines, very close up (sire/daughter, dam/son, grandson/grandam, ...)

    I also stand by the opinion that horses (animals in general) don't differentiate between FAMILY members when it comes to reproduction. I believe in nature there is a reason young males are driven from the herd (pack, what have you) when they come into breeding age. Nature has a way of trying to oversee the genetic diversity of a species to ensure that there IS a diversity.

    LINEBREEDING has been done for generations with good results (racing performance). Most breeders that I have known (arabian, thoroughbred, etc.,...) tend to stay away from INBREEDING, as it does not allow enough distance to accurately reproduce positive traits.

    I have personally owned a horse who was the result of an intentional mating of daughter back to sire. Nice horse even though it wasn't a cross that *I* would do on purpose. It certainly made for an interesting set of papers!

    JMHO
    =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
    ~Jilltx~



  6. #6
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    Jul. 14, 2004
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    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
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    Default

    Excellent post, jilltx!
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist



  7. #7
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    Default

    The TWH breeder my husband purchased his horse from a few years ago keeps their fillies specifically to breed back to their stallion (their dad). I've noticed that now they are keeping the fillies resulting from that inbreeding to cross back to the same stallion AGAIN. Frankly I thought daughter to dad was bad enough. Ironically this is a champagne tobiano so color is the underlying means for doing this. They get the color and gait, the horses apparently sell, but what a god-awful mess of conformation faults. Anyway, I wouldn't do it, but there sure are folks out there that do.



  8. #8
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Philadelphia PA
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    Default

    My gelding Stoney is by the stallion Scotch Bar Time, who is by Sonny Dee Bar and he is out of a mare Jackie Dee Bar who is (wait for it... by Sonny Dee Bar). I find that the Sonny Dee Bar was awfully prepotent-- I can pick his get out of a sea of quarter horses by looks alone. I am quite sure, since he was bred for halter, that the linebreeding of my horse was done purely to pass along the "looks" (and in halter, I guess looks equal performance). And he has all those looks-- red red chestnut, beefy body, muscles easily, teacup feet (and super personality, but I don't think that's what they were going for, sadly, but that line also seemed to pass good temperment).

    Sonny Dee Bar bred hundreds, hundreds of mares before my horse was bred. In fact, Scotch Bar Time also bred hundreds of mares. That type of line breeding can really work out when you have generations of a sire crossed on different mares and you have a large sample from which you can glean the good and the bad that you're concentrating. Because that's what you'll do--concentrate the good and the bad. In an ideal world, you would hope linebreeding would only be done with the most exemplary horses, ones that had been outcrossed and bred true and had proven themselves to be exceptional in all ways and had demonstrated that they were free from faults that might take years to develop/show (er, except when the fault if intentional because it's rewarded in halter classes, which is a whole 'nother topic).
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  9. #9
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    Sep. 9, 2004
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    Default

    I have a rare Knabstrupper mare by Apollon that I want to breed someday. The problem is that it is hard to find a Knabstrupper stallion available in the US not related to Apollon. I am currently considering an Apollon Grandson but am creeped out by it so not sure if I will even breed her. I may wait and hope for more stock to choose from if that ever happens. I do have a client that bred a son to his mother. And for what it's worth, that particular result turned out wonderful and is cleaning up in-hand (yearling)... I just don't think it's right for me even though I have seen examples that were good results.



  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VirginiaBred View Post
    Excellent post, jilltx!
    I agree, thank you jilltx!
    ~ Bill Rube ~
    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
    Check us out on Facebook



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Default

    Have fun with this website on incest in the TB.
    http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/inbreeding.htm
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  12. #12
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    May. 6, 1999
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    Ocala, FL
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    Default

    Nah, nah, nah. As I've posted b'fore, y'aint seen nothin' til y'seen Teddy's great, great grandsire's pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/winraff2.
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.



  13. #13
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    Default

    Its linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it doesn't, no?



  14. #14
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    Default

    pwynn -

    that' s a whole lot of Raffles

    my eyes were glazing over with the "R's"
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



    www.dontlookbackfarm.com



  15. #15
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    Default

    Oh pwynn... that family tree got no branches! ( they don't have a smily missing its teeth)
    "To my Gub... Godspeed my friend, till we meet again." 1996-2007.
    Runway (Sasha) 2009 Zweibrucker filly by Redwine.

    "Silence is golden...and duct tape is silver."



  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Its linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it doesn't, no?
    NO!!! You do not know how much I hate that saying!!!

    Ahhhh the famous Raffles and linebreeding/inbreeding! Is Ferzon the other one I am thinking of? I know there were several who were, um, more trunk than branch, genologically speaking.
    =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
    ~Jilltx~



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2002
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    Germany
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    Default

    We consider inbreeding father to daughter, mother to son and full sister to full brother, all other is cónsidered linebreeding here and done quite often as it has resulted in phenomenal outcome.

    ljshorses
    I would do the cross as that is linebreeding and linebreeding to Apollon has always resulted in great offspring.
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
    Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians



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