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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2003
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    Default New horse, branded, no papers etc: Getting docs?

    I have a new horse that is branded Oldenburg NA. I have nothing but hearsay and speculation on his pedigree, and while it isn't that important to know, I'm still curious.

    Background: I bought the horse from a lady who had bought him from a dealer, no papers or history. She didn't care about those things because for her use (foxhunting) it wasn't important.

    I've already been in email contact with Oldenburg NA about this, so I know what is required regarding paperwork and photos and etc.

    My question is: Has anyone else gone through this process, and was it successful? Was it worth the money?

    Thanks in advance for your input!
    Yvonne Lucas
    Red Moon Farm
    redmoonfarm.com


    "Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Jim Wofford

    "Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant." - Jim Wofford



  2. #2
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    Nov. 5, 2000
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    Default

    FWIW, it is usually fairly time consuming for a registry to try to track down registration information on a "mystery horse". Obviously the more info you can provide them, the better their chances of being able to come up with something. If you are fairly certain of the horse's age and have some idea who his sire, dam, and/or breeder was, they might can check back in their records for the year he was foaled.

    Also, I don't know how ISR/ONA handles this issue, but some registries are very loathe to provide duplicate papers on these horses. Sometimes horses are deliberately sold without papers - e.g., the buyer doesn't want to pay full price for a horse with papers, so the seller agrees to lower the price but withhold the papers. This is especially true in hunter-land, where so many people say they don't care about registration papers. Then, voila, the horse gets sold on and the new buyer suddenly starts wanting the papers. Dealers also are sometimes quick to "lose" papers so they can change the horse's identity - makes it easier to manufacture a new show or medical history for the horse.



  3. #3
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    Apr. 14, 2003
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    Shenandoah Valley, VA
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    Default

    Is is possible to track the horse via DNA? I know ISR does not require all mares and foals to be DNA typed, but the stallions are, and many mares are (one of mine is). I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to try to track him through DNA? At least you may find out the sire.



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by avezan View Post
    Is is possible to track the horse via DNA? I know ISR does not require all mares and foals to be DNA typed, but the stallions are, and many mares are (one of mine is). I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to try to track him through DNA? At least you may find out the sire.
    It is my understanding that ISR/ONA does not run DNA on foals unless they were conceived by frozen semen. So there very likely may not be a DNA report on file anywhere.

    And it would be very difficult and time consuming (i.e., EXPENSIVE) - if not downright impossible - to start with DNA from the horse in question and start searching the database for potential sires and dams. They would have to run the horse's DNA report against literally THOUSANDS of records to try to come up with potential matches.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2003
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    How old is the horse and what information do you have on the horse? The ISR/OLDNA does list all the foals presented for inspection each year and it would be possibly to back through the Breeders Guide and look up the horse when he was presented as a foal. It would also list the breeder and owner.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    And it would be very difficult and time consuming (i.e., EXPENSIVE) - if not downright impossible - to start with DNA from the horse in question and start searching the database for potential sires and dams. They would have to run the horse's DNA report against literally THOUSANDS of records to try to come up with potential matches.
    Yes, this is what I was wondering. I have one foal on file with them and his dam because he was presented as a 2 year old. This fall I will present a foal without the (same) dam, so I'll get that foal's DNA as well. I think the idea of getting an idea of the horse's age, then looking at the records to try and narrow it down a bit - color, gender, etc. might help and then maybe it wouldn't be thousands of records to check against....but maybe it would!



  7. #7
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    Feb. 5, 2003
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    Default

    but some registries are very loathe to provide duplicate papers on these horses. Sometimes horses are deliberately sold without papers - e.g., the buyer doesn't want to pay full price for a horse with papers, so the seller agrees to lower the price but withhold the papers. This is especially true in hunter-land, where so many people say they don't care about registration papers. Then, voila, the horse gets sold on and the new buyer suddenly starts wanting the papers. Dealers also are sometimes quick to "lose" papers so they can change the horse's identity - makes it easier to manufacture a new show or medical history for the horse.
    Reply With Quote
    So, why in the world would the registry "be loathe to provide papers" then? For all the talk of the warmblood folks wanting "tracking", "approved parents", "bloodline analysis", yadda yadda yadda, why would then, the warmblood registries feed into being part of the problem instead of holding onto their so-called principles and providing what they say they do? - if the horse can be proved, the warmblood registries should stand behind it, not be PART OF THE PROBLEM.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    So, why in the world would the registry "be loathe to provide papers" then? For all the talk of the warmblood folks wanting "tracking", "approved parents", "bloodline analysis", yadda yadda yadda, why would then, the warmblood registries feed into being part of the problem instead of holding onto their so-called principles and providing what they say they do? - if the horse can be proved, the warmblood registries should stand behind it, not be PART OF THE PROBLEM.
    Because if the original owner deliberately sold the horse w/o papers for a reason, the Verband isn't going to try to circumvent that by issuing duplicate papers to the new buyer. It would have been a business transaction between the seller and buyer, and really none of the Verband's business.



  9. #9
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    Ah and gee tri, did you ever think of the possibility of stolen horses if they don't have papers and/or proof of sale?
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  10. #10
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    Ah, gee, Tiki, did you ever think that if someone contacted the registry about getting papers and the horse had been reported to them stolen that it would be a good way to CATCH THEM?? Geesh. Either the horse is tracked or the horse isn't. The registry doesn't need to get into anyone's business, they just need to do their job and track the horse, not decide under what circumstance they are going to track the horse or not.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Ah, gee, Tiki, did you ever think that if someone contacted the registry about getting papers and the horse had been reported to them stolen that it would be a good way to CATCH THEM?? Geesh. Either the horse is tracked or the horse isn't. The registry doesn't need to get into anyone's business, they just need to do their job and track the horse, not decide under what circumstance they are going to track the horse or not.
    I would offer that it is each registry's decision under what circumstances they will "track the horse." It isn't up to YOU to dictate those terms to them. If someone reports a horse as stolen and someone else later contacts the registry to try to obtain duplicate papers, I can see where the registry might become involved. However, I do not think it is a registry's responsibility to have an open policy of providing duplicate papers whenever asked, without there being some hard evidence that the horse changed hands legitimately and that the papers were not deliberately withheld by a previous owner for some reason.

    Besides, all registries can do regarding "tracking a horse" is to see who the last owner of record was. Horses get sold on all the time without a change of ownership being filed with the registry. It is unrealistic to expect a registry to know the whereabouts and current ownership status of every single horse it has ever registered.



  12. #12
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    DY, you are reaching and can't offer any legitimate excuse. What is the point of your so-called wonderful system where the europeans track every single horse for its lifetime if they are going to just turn around and feed into the same problem as all the rest - hiding horses, changing names, reinventing identities?

    The registries don't have to "get involved" with all the drama that you are making up. All they have to do is track the horse. The horse has DNA on file, it is in their system and if someone can offer up the evidence that the horse is who the horse is, then well, for pete's sake, that is who the horse is. Isn't that what your precious system is about????? Stand by it for pete's sake.



  13. #13
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    Apr. 4, 2008
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    Default

    From what I've been told - They can't do DNA mystery matching like they can with humans.

    All they can do is confirm the horse is a get of one of the horses they have dna on. So you need to know the sire or the dam.

    For example, a friend of mine was able to determine that she did have a horse by Voltaire by submitting dna. So she was able to get papers to that effect, and the dam was just marked "unknown".



  14. #14
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    Kathy, exactly how do you expect the registry to "track" the OP's horse? The OP only has a vague idea of who the horse might be.

    As I said, if they have some idea of its age, sire, dam, breeder, etc. - ANYTHING to help identify it, the registry might be able to find it in its records, but to ask a registry to undertake a record search when you have virtually no info is like asking them to find a needle in a haystack.

    And it is certainly not the registry's responsibility to issue duplicate papers without some proof that the horse was legitimately sold on from the original owner of record and that papers were not withheld on purpose for one reason or another. Maybe the horse was sold on consignment but the original owner never received full payment so withheld the papers - THAT is a scenario that happens every day in this country, esp. in hunter land.



  15. #15
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    Downyonder, if you just want to keep making up stuff, go ahead. Its not the first.

    I don't know what part of "if the horse is proven to be who the horse is and all fees are paid then the registry should be able to issue papers" that you fail to understand. The horse is who the horse is. If the horse isn't, then the horse isn't. All this other crap you keep spewing is just middle aged drama. The registries don't need to run around getting into everyone's business. They just need to have their database of horses and when a horse is determined to be one of those horses, then that is who the friggin horse is.



  16. #16
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    I think DY was saying that in this case, the OP has no information that could serve as a starting point. The registries do not do blind DNA matching (i.e., attempt to find the identity based only on a DNA sample).

    I do agree however that if the registry is provided whatever iota of info they need to figure out who the horse is, they should, and that issuing papers is completely distinct from transferring ownership (the latter requiring a sig from the seller and usually a copy of the sales contract). I know the Jockey Club will do that, as I have helped people on this BB identify TB rescue horses and horses saved from killpens with the Jockey Club's assistance -- and all we had in those cases was a tattoo, or part of a tattoo. And in the Jockey Club's case, they do in fact encounter the situation where the owner has withheld papers to prevent the horse from being bred to produce horses for racing (which requires registration) -- but in the case of TBs, owners that want that return the papers to the JC and they are stamped to that efffect. Even in those cases. they will give duplicate papers, they just bear the stamp with that limitation.

    Frankly, I have never heard of any hunter that has papers being discounted if purchased without them, and I showed, bought and sold a number of horses on the circuit for many years. I have heard of plenty of people who don't have papers because the horse was not regstered properly or they just don't care about papers, as well as a number of instances of unscrupulous dealers conveniently losing (or altering) papers. But in those cases, the registries should be striving to curtail and thwart those abuses, not facilitate them. I do think the registries should have sufficient personnel to help with tracking and other member services. I know whenever I have contacted the AHS with a question they have been incredibly helpful. We had an issue with papers for one of my horses and they jumped right in and sorted it out immediately -- and it did require them to contact the Verband in Germany and do some research. I had my answer from them the same day.



  17. #17
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    Apr. 22, 2005
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    459

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    I can envision, and have seen first-hand, any number of scenarios for how a horse can be separated from its papers.

    - The possibility exists that breeder took foal to inspection, it was “registered” and branded, breeder’s check bounces and never heard from again, papers are never actually issued.

    - Breeder breeds and registers a filly. Filly does not mature as hoped, mentally and/or physically. Breeder gives away or sells cheaply without papers hoping filly is never bred.

    - Divorce situation. One spouse sells or gives away horse(s) to spite other spouse (without papers) PRIOR to finalization of property settlement agreement.

    - Horse is donated to riding school / university without papers. Riding school turns around and sells horse.

    - Horse is at trainer / consignment barn and is sold under conditions not to owner’s liking and no papers change hands.

    - Horse is sold without papers in an attempt to conceal its true age and/or pedigree, medical history, previous show career.

    - Owner is just terribly disorganized and not inclined to search high and low for the papers.

    Etc.

    For a registry to issue a duplicate set of papers and ownership documents in some of these cases could lead to the registry placing itself in a liability situation. Each registry has its own rules and guidelines; if “you” don’t like those rules, don’t play in that sandbox.

    Most registries, if provided with sufficient information to identify the horse and bills of sale to establish a chain of custody from the last recorded owner will work with the new owner to issue new papers. “Chain of custody” is the key legal concept.

    However, if someone contacts a registry and says: “I just bought a ____ (insert breed here) and it looks just like _____ (insert name of well-known horse pictured on registry’s web site). Can you get me its papers?” there really isn’t much the registry can do without having more information. (I’m not saying this is the case of the OP, but this does happen frequently.)

    Taking DNA on a horse proves one thing: the horse has DNA. At this time, there is no way to run a horse DNA sample thru the system to establish parentage (unlike what we see on crime TV shows for human matching). Owner seeking papers needs to know the registered name of the horse or the names of the sire and the dam and they must have been DNA tested in order to verify parentage thru DNA. Oh … there are several labs in US and Canada that do DNA testing and their data is not inter-connected. Also, some registries came only recently to mandatory DNA testing on all registered horses.

    Here is my advice if someone is buying a horse and the papers are an important part of the deal:

    - When you go to see the horse, insist that the ORIGINAL registration papers are produced for you to look at. Make sure the horse matches the description on the papers. If you are looking at a chestnut mare and the papers say bay gelding, these probably are not the correct papers!!

    - Make it part of the sales contract that you will receive the ORIGINAL registration papers, signed over to you by the previous owner, in a timely manner.

    - If the owner tells you that the horse was never registered but can be, call the registry involved to make certain this is true. Do this BEFORE money changes hands.

    - Obtain a descriptive bill of sale, including the horse’s registered name, breed, registration number, complete description of color and markings, etc.

    - When you complete the transaction, formally change ownership with the registry involved. If you should then lose the papers, it is much easier to obtain new ones if the horse was last recorded in your name.

    OP – I am guessing you have a gelding and the papers are more for you to know about his background? If you have an accurate idea of his age, if he has particularly unusual markings (i.e., is not bay with star –how many of those horses do we know), if you have an idea of the geographic area where he was born, some idea of pedigree, you might be successful in finding out who he is. Whether it is worth the money would be your call, I think.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Downyonder, if you just want to keep making up stuff, go ahead. Its not the first.

    I don't know what part of "if the horse is proven to be who the horse is and all fees are paid then the registry should be able to issue papers" that you fail to understand. The horse is who the horse is. If the horse isn't, then the horse isn't. All this other crap you keep spewing is just middle aged drama. The registries don't need to run around getting into everyone's business. They just need to have their database of horses and when a horse is determined to be one of those horses, then that is who the friggin horse is.
    Oh, dear. I cannot imagine how someone as supposedly intelligent as you are cannot understand that registries often have very legitimate reasons for not issuing duplicate papers without appropriate "due diligence".



  19. #19
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    Downyonder, I just don't think you are reading the posts through. Even yankeelawyer agrees with me and we don't agree often!



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Downyonder, I just don't think you are reading the posts through. Even yankeelawyer agrees with me and we don't agree often!
    Um, that's true : ).

    Regarding potential liability issues, I believe that is a bit of a red herring, but to the extent the registries are concerned about exposure, it would probably be possible to use releases / waivers and/or affidavits to address that issue.



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