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  1. #121
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    As a guess, I would say they are worried about electronic, not original signatures holding up in an injury lawsuit. Has that been case tested?



  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    As a guess, I would say they are worried about electronic, not original signatures holding up in an injury lawsuit. Has that been case tested?
    Off the top of my head, I do not know, but courts accept electronic signatures on all kinds of important docs. The thing is, you can't participate in a show, obviously, unless you have entered, and if you show up to participate and have not protested whatever signature is on your entry forms, I think it would be hard to disavow that entry form later as not being signed by you.



  3. #123
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    While 48 states do have laws upholding electronic signatures, the USEF and USDF as private organizations have the right to say no. There are also some articles stating that e-signatures are actually harder to forge than "wet" signatures. The courts findings (in the little bit of research I've done) seem to indicate that the e-signatures have not been protested, but in part because the actual signatures rarely are challenged. It is generally something else that brings a case to court. There is just a small class of contracts that may not be e-signed, mainly wills, divorces, etc...

    I think another point that LoriK brought up is that the shows would then need to accept credit cards because payment must accompany the entry. Credit Card companies charge money, so that would raise fees for us competitors even more. Paypal isn't really an option either because PP exacts a high fee to the reciever of the monies, which again would raise competitor fees. The dressage world is not like the hunter world in that fees must be paid in advance, similar to the eventing world.



  4. #124
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    I know one of the online services a few years ago, just charged a fee for a credit card. The charge is about $3.00/ hundred. That would be something people would have to accept, but the program could also be set up like many others, to use a direct debit from a checking account. Paypal also does this and users can decide to only acceot that without paying a fee.

    Pressuring the USEF to arrive in the 21st century would really help. We need that one number system, and bar code for entries.



  5. #125
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    As noted , USEF will allow electronic membership renewals. They pretty much insist that results be filed electronically. The results email contains other information such as judges names, classes cancelled or combined. This is accepted with no signature and really no verification from USEF regarding who sent it ( other than an acknowledgement email to the sending address ).
    Recently they published a pdf version of the increment report. This can be completed and attached to the results filing email. So they are moving forward with electronic data. I can only agree that they are worried about liability for the entry blank.

    This is what the rules say about on line entries. This is from the General Rules and applies to all disciplines unless there is something specific mentioned in that discipline's USEF rules.

    "Or: by transmitting the required entry data to a designated collection
    agent via the internet, accompanied by a valid credit card payment to
    cover entry fees, stall fees, Federation fee (see GR208.1) and applicable
    processing fees, and including the name(s) of the (1) exhibitor, (2) rider,
    driver, handler, vaulter or longeur, (3) the trainer, and (4) the coach,
    if applicable. The secretary of the competition will accept such an entry as complete (see 1.1 below).
    a. In the case of on-line entries, no competition number will be issued until
    the Competition Secretary has received on an entry form, the signatures of the (1) exhibitor, (2) the rider, driver, handler, vaulter or longeur, (3) the trainer, and (4) the coach, if applicable, or of the agent(s) of such person(s). In the case of a rider, driver, handler, vaulter or longeur under 18, his/her parent or guardian, or if not available, the trainer must sign an entry blank on the minor’s behalf.
    b. Submission of on-line entry accompanied by a valid credit card payment shall be construed to be acceptance by the person(s) named in the entry of the provisions of GR906-GR908 and GR911-GR914."



  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    The dressage world is not like the hunter world in that fees must be paid in advance, similar to the eventing world.
    Yes, but there is no USEF rule requiring that. It seems to be more just what's customary in eventing or dressage.

    The rules about entries, signatures, payment are all in the General Rules, not specific to H/J , Eventing or Dressage.
    There are some small differences such as sending out confirmations of entry but most of it is the same.



  7. #127
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    What is really needed is a liability release for all competitions that members can elecrtonically sign ONCE a year, as a rider/owner/handler/trainer, and then they will get their membership number/barcode.

    Why are signatures needed for every single competition? Agree it is risky and you won't sue any facility/management/USEF at a member show once a year when you join - period.



  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    Apples and oranges. The budgets for these shows are much different, so the risk is much different.
    .
    Can you explain what you mean by the budgets being different? I'm not saying that they aren't but what causes you to think the risk is much different?



  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    What is really needed is a liability release for all competitions that members can elecrtonically sign ONCE a year, as a rider/owner/handler/trainer, and then they will get their membership number/barcode.

    Why are signatures needed for every single competition? Agree it is risky and you won't sue any facility/management/USEF at a member show once a year when you join - period.
    I think a blanket waiver (i.e., signing one release for all shows per year) would be more vulnerable to challenge than signing for each show individually, electronically. As I said, if after entering you turn up at the show, pick up your number, and participate in the event, all without saying boo about the electronic signature, I think you would have a hard time later protesting the validity of that signature that you relied on as an entrant and participant of the show.

    A middle ground might be to file with the USEF once a year a signed statement saying that you agree that shows may rely upon your electronic signatures as they may appear on your show entries that year.



  10. #130
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    The problem is that one person enters the horse, so you would have an electronic signature for that person, but the others, rider/owner/trainer, how do you get them all to have an electronic signature on your entry?

    The only way I see it working is a basic release on file. Without that, you will have horrible lines at the office checking in.



  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    The problem is that one person enters the horse, so you would have an electronic signature for that person, but the others, rider/owner/trainer, how do you get them all to have an electronic signature on your entry?

    The only way I see it working is a basic release on file. Without that, you will have horrible lines at the office checking in.
    Hmmm, I guess because I am the rider, owner, trainer, and chief treat-bearer, I am usually the only one signing. I am surprised they don't also require a hoofprint!

    Well, what do the H/J people do with regard to their online entries in terms of the sig issue?



  12. #132
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    SHF--
    You might want to check this thread out on fees/entry costs of H/J shows:

    http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=153302

    To the best of my recollection, it has always been far more expensive to show in H/J than dressage.



  13. #133
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    [quote=YankeeLawyer;3309283
    Well, what do the H/J people do with regard to their online entries in terms of the sig issue?[/quote]

    If a show accepts on-line, fax or telephone entries they simply collect the needed signatures at the show when the number is picked up.
    As a practical matter at a one day show a number will often be issued without the trainer signature. In that case the owner signs as the trainer.
    Or sometimes a trainer makes all the entries for their clients and picks up all the clients numbers at the same time. In that case the trainer usually has signed entry forms from each client in his/her possession when they check in. Individual trainers have different procedures. Sometimes a trainer or barn pays the entries from their own account and bills the clients. If varies considerably. The trainer can be acting as agent for the client or not.

    The main reason for the trainer signature is to track responsibility for drug violations. It is prefectly acceptable for an owner to sign as trainer for their own horses. An increasing number of exhibitors do this ( at least locally ) to simplify their entries. Often the trainer does not have care, custody or control of the horses so no point to have him sign as trainer.
    Locally, the check in line usually moves along well. It varies with each show but usually two people handing out numbers and another person doing data entry, filing,etc. About half the entries are pre-show. The rest are post entries. Looking at a group of 75 shows the average is 200 entries for a one day show.



  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post

    The main reason for the trainer signature is to track responsibility for drug violations. It is prefectly acceptable for an owner to sign as trainer for their own horses. An increasing number of exhibitors do this ( at least locally ) to simplify their entries. Often the trainer does not have care, custody or control of the horses so no point to have him sign as trainer.
    Yes, actually, that is the reason I initially started signing everything myself. The horses are in my care and I am the only one who handles meds at my farm to avoid any mistakes.



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