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  1. #41
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    What's amazing is the fact that she sent the video dressed like that using the bit. Get your horse out of there.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  2. #42
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    Feb. 26, 2008
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    CA
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    I would have been horrifed to put it lightly, i ride my finished (as in retired GP jumper, competed up to prelim, 4th level dressage) horse in a pelham ONLY because that is something that he respects when we are jumping, otherwise he goes in a loose ring snaffle.

    I have tried riding him in a snaffle but having a pelham allows me to make light aids instead of ripping off his face when he gets going.

    If you start a horse out in a pelham, that horse will likey become dead in the mouth.
    "Let the fence be the bit." - Phillip Dutton



  3. #43
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    What's amazing is the fact that she sent the video dressed like that using the bit. Get your horse out of there.

    I think that was our secondary shock.....IF you are going to have some . let's say, rather unothadox methodry or style, would you NOT realize that the normal world out there might not understand, and where is the professionalism? I wish I could post the photo....let's just say this is about over and I will post an update as to the results..
    by the way, she is not, a 'western ' or 'cowboy' trainer...we could not find one, so at least if we had I would have KNOWN what to expect and I would have had no problem instructing same to use a snaffle if he/she said he normally did not.....and in our experience, most of the cowboy trainers do use a snaffle.....a real snaffle.....like us old folks are used to...
    hey about the guy who 'broke' horses for a friend of mine , NO bit, no bridle, even after 90 days...he was so proud of the horse when she came to pick him up....she was horrified...she said....."how nice...but I WANT TO RIDE THIS ANIMAL IN A BRIDLE!!! now what?" after 15years we still laugh about it.....



  4. #44
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    272

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    Are you sure it wasn't an FM bit? You described shanks going up and down from the mouthpiece, that describes an FM bit, which is a snaffle.



  5. #45
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvia View Post
    Are you sure it wasn't an FM bit? You described shanks going up and down from the mouthpiece, that describes an FM bit, which is a snaffle.

    you know we are pretty 'old school'...so you will have to enlighten me on an 'fm bit'....
    My husband , who is now 71, spent his life as an equine professional.
    Over 50 years as a h/j pro, professional polo trainer/competitor, rode on the Arapahoe Hunt as a whip for 17 yrs, and blah blah blah...his 'passion' and expertise as a trainer was bits....
    he currently has a collection of over 500....we already sold at least that many..he was passionate about matching bit and horse. He started all his horses in bosal, then snaffle...even OTTB...no matter what...he is an expert with double bridles (played polo in them, four reins and a mallet, his horses were known for their lightness and 'handle')

    I know things have changed...we should all accept some change as long as it's backed up by facts and proof of necessity, as in the 'change' is better than the 'old way'....but...

    We picked up the horse today...after watching the trainer ride....we videoed, took stills (photos to come) of her riding, of the bitting....
    the bit that I described as a 'broken pelham' I was far too 'kind' in my description. It was not a pelham as we know them..It most certainly was not a snaffle of any kind...
    It was a 'walking horse bit' as we call them around here. With a curb chain...typically ill fitting, the entire bit was hanging too loose, the curb chain was too loose ( how many people REALLY know how to fit a bit???), and the bit had shanks, above and below the mouthpiece, with the shanks above the mouthpiece being far longer (hence MORE leverage) than below...also, the mouthpiece could 'rise' a bit up or down, thereby also increasing the 'leverage' (can you imagine wanting LEVERAGE on a baby???)....
    we just watched, vowing to interfere ONLY if we saw the horse being abused in any way other than just 'not ridden right'....
    I have some close ups of the bit to post later...in the horse's mouth.

    What this bit is , is NOT in any way the definition of a 'snaffle'...there is lately a problem in communicating about terminology (so I am opening myself to all sorts of comments that may require a flame suit, hope not, but oh well)
    It is, not even a 'pelham' because it had no option for the addition of a 'snaffle' rein.. It only allows for a rein at the end of the shank, the CURB rein (which describes it's function...)
    the shank that extended ABOVE the mouthpiece (the mouthpiece was broken as in any broken mouthpiece) was twice as long as the curb shank portion..This was the length that was used to attach the bit to the headstall...This also allows for far greater leverage (and pain or , the horse trying to 'avoid' the bit)...
    This type of bit produced exactly as we suspected it would, after watching her work our horse...a 'turtling ' effect..the horse retracts it's neck, as it tries to 'avoid' the effects of the bit...despite the fact the trainer was not severe with her hands, she could not, without 'throwing the reins away' give the horse enough freedom to drop it's head, and move FORWARD...only at the walk was she willing to do this...at the trot, which our horse was willing to do quietly, any gathering of the rein resulted in the horse becoming 'overflexed' , behind the bit, and compressing the neck, raising the neck, and hindering the motion and freedom of the shoulder...outrageous....
    we are anxious to ride our horse tomorrow properly and see what happens....we suspect it will be a bit difficult to encourage this horse to move forward.....

    pics to come...
    ''



  6. #46
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...2yroldcrop.jpg

    here is a close up of our horse bridled...yesterday..



  7. #47
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    Northeast
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    This may have already been answered, but what the heck kinda people are these????? Just curious did you go and watch these "trainers" many times with different type of horses before you sent your horse there??? Just wondering????

    Ancient Oaks, is this Ironstone, I have and Ironman gelding and cant imagine this because they are all so accomodating, It breaks my heart to think any of them are treated this way



  8. #48
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    OK, that is seriously one of the nastiest bits I have ever seen. OUCH! Poor baby. We break all of ours in a fat, loose ring snaffle.



  9. #49
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuillcoteFarm View Post
    This may have already been answered, but what the heck kinda people are these????? Just curious did you go and watch these "trainers" many times with different type of horses before you sent your horse there??? Just wondering????

    Ancient Oaks, is this Ironstone, I have and Ironman gelding and cant imagine this because they are all so accomodating, It breaks my heart to think any of them are treated this way
    no, we did NOT go and watch her...went there on the advice of an OLD OLD friend we admired (good grief, never again!!)
    We didn't even look in her tack room, quite frankly it didn't occur to us, as we have never run into this sort of thing before...There WERE a couple of snaffles hanging on the wall outside the tack room....doesn't look like she ever used them....
    We are getting ready to tack up and see what changes we might have, since we did start this youngster in long lines and bridle (FAT SNAFFLE) before sending off to the trainer...
    am getting even more bruised from self inflicted cherry switches acroos the legs for not 'doing my homework'.....

    and yes, it's IronStone...but until we CHECKED THINGS OUT in person, I did not want to disclose enough detail for this person to recognize herself, should she read here. I wanted to make SURE of what we had seen in the photo and what was going on with our horse. So I changed some of the non pertinent facts while engaged in this discussion.now I don't much care..so YES, my fabulous, wonderful dear IronStone who has handled this like a real man, ears up, happy and willing to put up with anything...
    you should see the photos of him trying desperately to trot out with his neck tucked up like a turtle avoiding that bit...but his EARS were still up.....trying trying to do what was asked....whew...am I mad...when I get over stewing, will post them...but I will 'edit out' the rider out of respect....
    you're right, the IRONMAN babies seem wonderful (and IronStone's mom's new MANNHATTAN colt seems just the same in mind set, so I think she has a bit to do with it as well!)



  10. #50
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    Jan. 8, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by okggo View Post
    I know NOTHING of western bits, but have noticed more often than not the "cowboy" type folks that back horses tend to have the most gosh-awful contraptions in their mouth. Was this an English or Western rider? Everything you have described sounds to me like "western" which might be why the culture shock.

    My husband rode western and trained western and I still shake my head at the way they do some things (lying horses down, the belief that they have to "get their bucks out") etc...he thought every horse was supposed to buck like a bronc when you started it, and is finally starting to realize, that is only if things weren't done right. No horse should buck if properly brought along and fitted.
    This is what gives western riders, "cowboys", a bad name. My sister is a western rider and has an assistant who MANY in the hunter world were trying to convince him not to stray to the western world (he wanted to ride reiners). They start a lot of babies each year, not in shanked bits, but in sidepulls, than graduate to a western snaffle without shanks. And she does not expect to "buck" her horses out when she 1st gets on. Same type of thing as the dressage riders who started the "Hunter People, I don't understand." thread. All it takes is a few ignorant backyard people to cast a bad image for the rest. Not all western riders are yahoos who throw their horses to the ground.

    Ancientoaks, when I hear people say "snaffle with shanks" I think of a a simple broken snaffle, but instead of a loose ring, there were shanks. Like this:
    http://www.statelinetack.com/itemdy0...LT731317%20500
    typically, these bits have a curb chain, which enhances the leverage. I have seen people who take the chain off and use just leverage aspect, the horse can escape the pressure because there is no chain (or noseband) so they don't feel trapped.

    The bit you linked is a sliding gag type of bit. Pretty popular with barrel racers and cow horses. Cannot imagine using on an unbroke! Sounds to me you got one of those "cowboys" who give the western trainers bad names. Very sorry for you and your horse. :-(



  11. #51
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equino View Post
    This is what gives western riders, "cowboys", a bad name. My sister is a western rider and has an assistant who MANY in the hunter world were trying to convince him not to stray to the western world (he wanted to ride reiners). They start a lot of babies each year, not in shanked bits, but in sidepulls, than graduate to a western snaffle without shanks. And she does not expect to "buck" her horses out when she 1st gets on. Same type of thing as the dressage riders who started the "Hunter People, I don't understand." thread. All it takes is a few ignorant backyard people to cast a bad image for the rest. Not all western riders are yahoos who throw their horses to the ground.

    what is a 'western snaffle'?



  12. #52
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    Jan. 8, 2007
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    I edited my post to add in the shank bit. A western snaffle without shanks looks like this:

    http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/assets/pr...large95182.jpg



  13. #53
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    Mar. 28, 2001
    Location
    Aiken, SC
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    2,689

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    Quote Originally Posted by Equino View Post
    this:

    The bit you linked is a sliding gag type of bit. Pretty popular with barrel racers and cow horses. Cannot imagine using on an unbroke! Sounds to me you got one of those "cowboys" who give the western trainers bad names. Very sorry for you and your horse. :-(
    Bit looks like an American Gag. Have no experience with it's use for barrel or cow horses but it is used on jumpers. Comes in a wide varierty of mouthpiece styles.



  14. #54
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    Feb. 11, 2002
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    "GAG" is an appropriate term for the bit! OMG, that poor baby. He looks so defeated in the picture you posted of him with it on--I about cried.

    So glad you got him out of that situation. When you described how your boy couldn't move with that bit and his head curled up it remided me of a sale video on YouTube of a lovely Friesian cross being ridden "western" with it's chin between it's legs, so much it can barely move. I wanted to post a comment to the be-atch that's riding the poor thing like that, but the video is closed to comments, go figure!

    Here's to hoping you can undo any damage they have caused, your horse seems like a forgiving soul, I'm sure he'll come through ok!



  15. #55
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    Northeast
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    Awwww I could tell he was an Ironman baby, I knew you had one according to Ironman website and who he was!! He will be fine, my heart broke for him when I saw the picture because like I said they are all wonderful, forgiving, smart, talented horses! and all seem to share a very similar look

    He will be fine now that he is at home, and smart enough to realize who knows best, Mom and Dad

    Good luck with him, what are his plans for the future???



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
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    16,390

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    It appears to be this bit: http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/pro...B0&pf_id=11173

    Which is absolutely inappropriate to start a horse in. It *might* be okay if you were starting a horse western and made every effort to NOT touch its mouth.

    I'm also glad you got him out of there. Poor kiddo.



  17. #57
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    I kike the description, "Designed for a horse with a sensitive mouth." um, NOT. Designed for the horse with a mouth of lead.



  18. #58
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBLover View Post
    "GAG" is an appropriate term for the bit! OMG, that poor baby. He looks so defeated in the picture you posted of him with it on--I about cried.
    Defeated? You're joking right? The horse looks perfectly ok with things to me, from the very little you can tell from a single, cropped photo Again, not the bit I would choose to use on a baby, but defeated? Poor baby? Cry-worthy? Give me a freakin' break...



  19. #59
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    here is a photo of our guy 'trying' his best to move out at a trot, all 'turtled' up ...classic response to this bit....shortens the neck grossly, overflexes at the wrong place, restricts shoulder, puts weight on the front end...blah blah blah.....
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gaintrytry.jpg

    now a photo taken after she turned him loose a bit...to get out of his face...she wouldn't do it at the trot, despite how quiet and easy he was going...or trying to go..

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ellyxxxx-2.jpg

    and here is a shot of the gelding with my husband driving him BEFORE we sent him off. it was his first time in the lines and a bit (a SNAFFLE)
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eleftxxxxx.jpg
    am sorry this thread inspired a comment or two about another, not my intention...I can understand the 'defeated' comment , as in he was 'resigned' to being 'defeated'...I watched him for nearly 30 minutes and I almost cried as well...
    wish I could post the video I took but I cannot hide the trainer's face ...and out of respect I won't do that...take my word for it, it would have been comical if not so sad.

    'trying' to get him to longe (it takes about two minutes to teach a bright horse to longe, and quite frankly I don't care)
    then getting him up on the 'platform' (so big deal he gets up on my porch, or anywhere else I lead him) ...bragged about 'working on getting him up there so he would load well' despite us telling her his history of 4 shows and an inspection by age 18 months..and how he was agreeable to going anywhere.
    when she went to mount him, she took him to that stupid platform and tried to get him to 'stand' (obviously had not worked on it much in 30 days), she would turn her backside to his backside, raise up her leg to get into the stirrup and only once or twice did she gather up the reins...so he would move slightly away..she would jump down, get in FRONT of him, jerk on the reins and say 'STAND!'. then start over again.. believe it or not, this went on for nearly five minutes...she only said 'whoa' ONCE, and got more annoyed with him with each try at mounting from this platform. It was so hard to keep my husband quiet, I just wanted to get my pics and LEAVE...then she said to me, after all the demos,
    "would you like to ride him?"........

    we had a friend over today, a former top h/j trainer, we put the surcingle and lines on him, a SNAFFLE bit, and asked her what she thought. It took him about 10 minutes to finally relax and start lowering his poll...she said he still felt very very soft, altho he was, obviously, a bit uptight about moving forward at first...again a classic response to the type of bit he was accumstomed to for the last 30 days..she loved his attitude and willingness...so we are looking forward to continuing the work, and getting him back to what he was when we sent him...



  20. #60
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    May. 29, 2007
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    I'm glad he wasn't too messed up when your friend got on him. Maybe she spent enough time "teaching" him to load and lunge, and didn't get to spend too much time riding him in that bit!

    My horse went to a western trainer for several months, but he doesn't use anything but a full cheek snaffle. I don't think I've even seen another bit out in the tackroom, and I've been boarding there nearly a year! There is no excuse to put that thing on a baby!



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