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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony89 View Post
    I'm glad he wasn't too messed up when your friend got on him. Maybe she spent enough time "teaching" him to load and lunge, and didn't get to spend too much time riding him in that bit!

    My horse went to a western trainer for several months, but he doesn't use anything but a full cheek snaffle. I don't think I've even seen another bit out in the tackroom, and I've been boarding there nearly a year! There is no excuse to put that thing on a baby!
    I think you hit the nail on the head...she spent all that time with 'circus tricks' (by the way, he just LOVED getting up on that stupid platform...He stood there and then got all cocky and crowey and looked around like he was searching for his fans..it was too funny, and she was serious!) and didn't do alot of actual riding..BUT we were afraid she long lined him in that bit as well..I hope not. but.

    I think he will be fine, he has a good mind and a trusting soul....time will tell but he seems none the worse for wear (not bad at least)



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientoaks View Post
    here is a photo of our guy 'trying' his best to move out at a trot, all 'turtled' up ...classic response to this bit....shortens the neck grossly, overflexes at the wrong place, restricts shoulder, puts weight on the front end...blah blah blah.....
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gaintrytry.jpg

    now a photo taken after she turned him loose a bit...to get out of his face...she wouldn't do it at the trot, despite how quiet and easy he was going...or trying to go..

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ellyxxxx-2.jpg

    and here is a shot of the gelding with my husband driving him BEFORE we sent him off. it was his first time in the lines and a bit (a SNAFFLE)
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eleftxxxxx.jpg
    am sorry this thread inspired a comment or two about another, not my intention...I can understand the 'defeated' comment , as in he was 'resigned' to being 'defeated'...I watched him for nearly 30 minutes and I almost cried as well...
    wish I could post the video I took but I cannot hide the trainer's face ...and out of respect I won't do that...take my word for it, it would have been comical if not so sad.

    'trying' to get him to longe (it takes about two minutes to teach a bright horse to longe, and quite frankly I don't care)
    then getting him up on the 'platform' (so big deal he gets up on my porch, or anywhere else I lead him) ...bragged about 'working on getting him up there so he would load well' despite us telling her his history of 4 shows and an inspection by age 18 months..and how he was agreeable to going anywhere.
    when she went to mount him, she took him to that stupid platform and tried to get him to 'stand' (obviously had not worked on it much in 30 days), she would turn her backside to his backside, raise up her leg to get into the stirrup and only once or twice did she gather up the reins...so he would move slightly away..she would jump down, get in FRONT of him, jerk on the reins and say 'STAND!'. then start over again.. believe it or not, this went on for nearly five minutes...she only said 'whoa' ONCE, and got more annoyed with him with each try at mounting from this platform. It was so hard to keep my husband quiet, I just wanted to get my pics and LEAVE...then she said to me, after all the demos,
    "would you like to ride him?"........

    we had a friend over today, a former top h/j trainer, we put the surcingle and lines on him, a SNAFFLE bit, and asked her what she thought. It took him about 10 minutes to finally relax and start lowering his poll...she said he still felt very very soft, altho he was, obviously, a bit uptight about moving forward at first...again a classic response to the type of bit he was accumstomed to for the last 30 days..she loved his attitude and willingness...so we are looking forward to continuing the work, and getting him back to what he was when we sent him...
    Did you take these pictures?
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    Did you take these pictures?
    why do you ask?

    yes I did



  4. #64
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    Jan. 23, 2004
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    You are far kinder than I would ever be if I saw any one of my horses in that bit and I would have snatched her off my horse so quick she didn't know what was coming.

    I suppose I could be considered a young horse trainer. I don't do a lot of breaking (I don't have that much help) but I start babies who have the basics already done and do most of the retraining for the ottb's owned by CANTER MIDATLANTIC. I also rehab a lot of horses and train horses for various other clients.

    I have an open door policy and can honestly say I communicate better than most trainers I have personally worked with. You get pictures, videos and email since most clients live far enough away it is hard to just stop by. I ask that clients come to ride their horses or watch them being ridden so they can be part of the training process. Truthfully, I would be weary about taking on a client who had not come to my farm and watched me work with young horses. I need to know the client trusts me and my knowledge it just puts me at ease to do my job.

    I give frequent updates whether they be good or bad and am as honest as can be about all horses that are with me. Most of the CANTER horses come to me after hanging out in a field after their racing days are over. They are all started in snaffles (really I can't say I ride any baby in anything but a snaffle unless absolutely necessary for reschooling purposes) and go in a soft frame in a forward manner until they are ready to do more. We have a varied routine of ring work, low jumps or poles, trails and trips off the farm if the horse is being geared to the show world.

    Almost all the clients live over 2hrs away but they know my reputation and because we keep in constant contact and are updated with pics/video they feel comfortable. Sending away your horses is so stressful because they are your babies. Finding the right person to do the training can be equally as stressful and horror stories like this are scary!

    I have sent two of my horses out before. One for training after I was injured and another to be sold. I went and watched the person ride other young horses. Checked the facility. Asked many many questions. Got several references from people I trusted. Looked up their show results and basically was overly paranoid. I did call to let them know I would be stopping in and scheduled some lessons on my horse that was in training. If my horse was not happy I would have pulled them out right away.

    I am glad your horse is going to be okay. He must be a trusting horse to go through all that!



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post
    Defeated? You're joking right? The horse looks perfectly ok with things to me, from the very little you can tell from a single, cropped photo Again, not the bit I would choose to use on a baby, but defeated? Poor baby? Cry-worthy? Give me a freakin' break...
    dazednconfused, I'm entitled to my opinion--you don't have to be so snarky! You don't like my comment, no need to jump all over me! Give ME a freakin' break!

    Wanted to add, now that I've seen the under saddle photos, they aren't AS bad as I would have expected, at least he doesn't have his chin in his chest which is what you could do with that bit in the wrong hands. I still would have freaked out if I saw my baby started in that bit, but I think he'll be just fine.



  6. #66
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    Strange looking stock saddle as well. Wonder if she rides Arabians or something like that? Only bring it up because those type of horses seem to go with a more up and in head set, which may be the reason she likes that bit???



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equino View Post
    Strange looking stock saddle as well. Wonder if she rides Arabians or something like that? Only bring it up because those type of horses seem to go with a more up and in head set, which may be the reason she likes that bit???
    no, she's an ex barrel racer for sure.and has Friesians (which I cannot imagine being in that bit, there are SOOOOO many other alternatives)....
    The first arab she had was our friend's horse that gave us the 'recommendation'......
    And the only time it is correct to train for an 'up and in' headset, IMO, is wayyyy after the horse is long since well started under saddle and you have chosen a saddle seat type of discipline to engage in. And this is normally done in a double bridle after the horse has had some preliminary head set work in a snaffle or pelham...

    and ouch! I hate to see that there is still an impression out there that arabs seem to go in 'that type' of headset.....Altho a good one has a higher set neck than say, a quarter horse, or a few Thoroughbreds, it's not much different than a GOOD warmblood's neckset..as for training or working an arab, less than 1% of them are trained to saddleseat disciplines and this trainer was definately NOT one of those....
    I think she 'meant well', but was typical of a person who found they were good with horses on the ground, have little horsemanship background, went to one of those 'whisperer' clinics and decided that training horses was easy...not alot of experience to back it up, as I said my husband had to show her how to tie a rope halter so that it did NOT tighten up around the throat...she did not know how to tie a knot...over all not a good experience, wish we could have spent the money on someone, say like many who posted here, but we fell for the 'friend's recommendation' thing, and I can assure you, NEVER EVER again...
    Now that I see the gelding should be ok, I am steamed about the lost time and dollars....and he is SOOOO thin.....so we have lost the summer basically, will turn him out on some deep grass if we can find some, and start over in late fall....that's just ducky.....



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientoaks View Post
    why do you ask?

    yes I did
    Were those the first day or later?

    Why did I ask? Because if it was my horse, and I had even the slightest problem with something a trainer/rider was doing she would be off in a second, and I wouldnt be sitting around taking pictures of it.
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/



  9. #69
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    Were those the first day or later?

    Why did I ask? Because if it was my horse, and I had even the slightest problem with something a trainer/rider was doing she would be off in a second, and I wouldnt be sitting around taking pictures of it.
    Those were my thoughts, also. I am also a little surprised everyone is freaking out about the bit, but no one seems bothered by the log pulling and circus platform training, which to me are equally bad or worse than the bit issue.



  10. #70
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    I don't know what to make of the platform jumping, but I did ride with a trainer who would do the log pulling thing on babies. She also would drape cones or something over the saddle and lunge in a round pen like that. The log the horse would drag was like a small fireplace log and the point was to desensitize the horse. I have no idea if it helps, never tried it, but it was interesting to watch. This was a western trainer and most of those horses went on to be all around horses, some pleasure drove and some did trail where they would have to drag bags or gates that were made up of a line of some sort, so I guess it served the purpose there.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientoaks View Post
    no, she's an ex barrel racer
    Upon a 2nd look, I see it looks like a barrel saddle. Would make sense why a barrel racing bit is her bit of choice!

    And the only time it is correct to train for an 'up and in' headset, IMO, is wayyyy after the horse is long since well started under saddle and you have chosen a saddle seat type of discipline to engage in. And this is normally done in a double bridle after the horse has had some preliminary head set work in a snaffle or pelham...
    I agree here-wasn't implying she was trying to teach a saddles seat head set or whatever, just thinking outloud about the saddle itself.

    and ouch! I hate to see that there is still an impression out there that arabs seem to go in 'that type' of headset.....
    My apologies since I absolutely hate when people generalize against western trainers and horses as well! All I meant is the ones I have seen that are ridden stock seat seem to carry themselve a bit more up than the QH western style horses go, due in part to a higher neck set. I was NOT implying that Arabs only go saddle seat style. In fact, my purpose was I thought the western saddle was the style many who ride Arabians in stock seat use. The seem to not have the double skirt and are smaller...I probably am explaining my thought really poorly...



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equino View Post
    Upon a 2nd look, I see it looks like a barrel saddle. Would make sense why a barrel racing bit is her bit of choice!


    I agree here-wasn't implying she was trying to teach a saddles seat head set or whatever, just thinking outloud about the saddle itself.


    My apologies since I absolutely hate when people generalize against western trainers and horses as well! All I meant is the ones I have seen that are ridden stock seat seem to carry themselve a bit more up than the QH western style horses go, due in part to a higher neck set. I was NOT implying that Arabs only go saddle seat style. In fact, my purpose was I thought the western saddle was the style many who ride Arabians in stock seat use. The seem to not have the double skirt and are smaller...I probably am explaining my thought really poorly...
    no problem, I have a bad habit of getting on the podium sometimes! Actually, from what I have heard from old friends still in the business of showing arabians, the complaint now is that the arab Western horses are being required to have their heads nearly between their knees, copying the QH.even 'numbing' their tails with bungie cords and vetwrap (????)..glad I don't have to deal with that.....
    The photos (perhaps I didn't make this very clear in my postings) were taken the DAY we picked him up....She is over two hours from us, he had been there 3 weeks when something she said bothered my husband (when we FINALLY got her on the phone)...we too were not too keen on climbing up on the platform, the log thing and the like...but we soon after the phone call recieved a photo SHE sent of her finally riding him. it's then we freaked out and called her and told her we were picking him within the week. Which we did.
    I was not really 'standing around' while videoing and taking photos. I did it so we would have a record of how he was being ridden so that we would have documentation if there were problems later (which we didn't plan on and have not had thank goodness)...It was a precaution I have learned to do (when we deliver a horse, we photograph them , when we ship a horse, we photograph them prior to loading with the hauler in the photo, etc etc)...
    I hope it is understood we reacted to what we saw and heard as soon as was possible for us under our particular circumstances..He wasn't being beaten, starved , or kept in filthy unsafe conditions, and we felt a few more days (especially considering it was obvious she was not working him very much) would not be that critical. Perhaps we were wrong, but we had little choice...And I guess mostly this thread is to educate others, even us 'ex pro's ' can sure screw up choosing things for our horses..we get complacent and trusting and we let our guard down...a serious lesson learned...

    by the way, that bit is commonly used here among walking horses who DO travel (at their riders' desire) with their heads in the air (not bridled up but evasive)... this area has some of the worst horsemanship amongst the 'average' horse owner I have ever witnessed...(flame suit on, as I am again speaking in generalities, however this time it's from first hand observation!)
    passed by some 'big lick walkers' being worked in a field today. I almost stopped and accosted the riders......it was sickening...you think that bit our gelding had on was bad? you should see what we have seen in some of those barns.....



  13. #73
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    Glad that he's home and seems more thin than mentally worse for the wear. Live and learn for all if us - not all our "friends" have the good judgment we would hope.



  14. #74
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    Well clearly -the rider has lost her head!

    I know ~ I'm sorry - I just couldn't resist!

    I'm glad he's home, back in your care! Looking forward to future updates.
    ** I LOVE PUIKA & SHELLA FAN CLUB*** member
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    Good job R&G!
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reds-n-Greys View Post
    Well clearly -the rider has lost her head!

    I know ~ I'm sorry - I just couldn't resist!

    I'm glad he's home, back in your care! Looking forward to future updates.

    I KNOW, I felt SO bad cutting off her head........tee hee....



  16. #76
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    The bit is a sliding H gag and, while not a bit I would ever start a youngster in, has its place (trust me ).

    I endurance ride my then stallion (now gelding) in it, the nice thing is, 99% of the time when there is no contact on the rein its sits like a snaffle, BUT if you need some serious brakes they are there. I ride him in it because as a (then) 4 year old stallion in amongst 150-200 other horses I wanted to be 100% sure I had stop (for all those that say this is training, trust me, he does dressage, he knows HH from the seat but an excited young stallion sometimes ceases to think with the right head).

    A bit is only as severe as the hands using it.

    But like I said NOT bit to start a horse in
    I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.



  17. #77
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    Since there are enough opinions about the colt's training, I thought I would just add he's REALLY FREGGIN CUTE ancientoaks!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Centaurian View Post
    As far as I am concerned, leadline is a legitimate reason to have children.



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by time fault View Post
    Since there are enough opinions about the colt's training, I thought I would just add he's REALLY FREGGIN CUTE ancientoaks!!!!
    THANK YOU! is he NOT got just the BEST expression? he DID grow another inch too (he's now a tad over 15.3), he reminds me of the sweet HUGE teenage in high school everyone liked, all legs and elbows.....He's quiet, but spirited, interested in everything (husband says he's a pest) and I am grateful for his personality...He would be hard to mess up....
    it really turned out to be a fabulous cross, recommend it to anyone....



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post
    Defeated? You're joking right? The horse looks perfectly ok with things to me, from the very little you can tell from a single, cropped photo Again, not the bit I would choose to use on a baby, but defeated? Poor baby? Cry-worthy? Give me a freakin' break...

    I gotta agree with Dazed here. The only issue I would have with this trainer is the bit.

    But I've looked at the pictures. The horse isn't defeated. I don't even think he looks "turtled up." He's moving nicely. I personally don't want to see a frame on a young horse, but his head is tucked at the right place (the poll); the neck is not broken (arched 1/3 of the way down), as is so common (and so harmful). The trainer is sitting quietly. Her hands look quiet.

    While standing on a platform or pulling a log may seem like a waste of time to a dressage or H/J person, it is common enough in desensitizing a trail horse. It's perfectly useful background training for a young horse. Certainly not harmful! I'd be pleased if my young horse trainer did these extras. She's trying to give you back a "been there done there" horse.

    Riding in shorts and tennis shoes -- while I wouldn't expect a professional to do it or, rather to photograph it , it doesn't harm the horse. So what? (Personally, I don't think riding in shorts/tennies is anywhere near as dangerous as riding w/o a helmet, and equestrians make that choice every day.)

    I'm also confused about how the OP got these pictures. If you were there to take them yourself, why didn't you ask the trainer to switch bits? I do understand that trainers tend to not be open to suggestions from clients, as you mentioned; but a plain snaffle and a loose rein on a young horse is pretty standard. I doubt she would have been outraged.

    Of course I don't know exactly how your horse was treated at the trainer, but I don't find any cause for alarm in what you posted here. You seem to feel that he's doing well in spite of the mistreatment because of what a nice horse he is. That's possible, of course. But it's also possible that he's doing well because he had a good month with her.



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