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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Location
    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
    Posts
    4,329

    Default Dark sooty buckskin or smoky black??? What do you think???

    I just adore this new filly!

    Born 2 days ago, here is a picture of her at about an hour old. She is by Guaranteed Gold (cremello) and out of Puchi Trap (bay) - either one is capable of throwing smoky black:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol.../GG-Daisy6.JPG

    and then a couple of her taken this morning at one day of age:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...aisy-Jun08.jpg

    and:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...sy-Jun08-2.jpg

    We had less than a 3% chance of producing a smoky black sabino so of course the thought was that she was a darker buckskin (most probable) and nothing else ... If she IS a smoky black then as far as I know she would be the first smoky black and white sabino TB out there anywhere

    She is a definate charcoally / grulla colour with soft buckskin undertones and I guess the only way to know for sure is to yank some hair and send it in ... I just got an email from her new owner this morning and she wants to know as well, so I will be sending hair in and will know for sure in a week or so!

    A couple more pics of her:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...08-6-small.jpg

    and:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...sy-Jun08-7.jpg


    This is the fifth full sibling in a row behind Faux Finish, Chai Latte, Stonewashed (all buckskin's) and Remember My Name (palomino)

    So - what do you all think??? Buckskin or smoky black???



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2003
    Location
    The good 'ole State of denial
    Posts
    5,064

    Default

    You need to hunt Daydream Believer down, I bet she would know. I have no clue, but she is very very lovely! Congrats!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2008
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Posts
    1,631

    Default Smokey black

    I'll say smokey black. I don't see any obvious signs of "reds" altered by creme from here. Brown foals are typically born with more red.

    And boy oh boy, is she beautiful! You really hit the jackpot.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    16,684

    Default

    Julie,

    You are so funny! I was just thinking that she looks a lot like my filly last year out of Kiowa and I still am not sure what she is! My filly is a dark chocolate brown this Spring with a white tail...go figure! I keep meaning to pull hair and DNA test but I keep forgetting to do it. In my case cream is only a possibility and not a definite but my filly was quite similar to yours as a foal.

    I vote for smokey black. The light hair on the inside of her ears makes me think so as well as her "grulla" like foal coat.

    Nice filly! Congrats on her!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,487

    Default

    IMHO it's too close to call. She could be a dark sooty buckskin, or a smokey black. I would have expected much bluer/teal eyes if she was a smokey black, so unless they start to lighten up, I'll go with buckskin. For now

    Just get her tested
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2002
    Location
    Redlands, CA
    Posts
    7,774

    Default

    Beautiful markings. Do all the siblings have special markings like that?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Location
    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
    Posts
    4,329

    Default

    Oakstable - they do:

    Faux Finish - 2004 mare- as a 2 year old:


    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ndon-Jul06.jpg

    Chai Latte - 2005 filly at a few days old:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...stand-side.jpg

    Stonewashed - 2006 colt - at 1 day old:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...ocky1-1day.jpg

    and the 2007 colt - Remember My Name - at 5 days old:

    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueCol...2-Jun17-07.JPG

    This combination produces the same look with the same flashy markings each and every time it seems.

    We are going to get her tested to find out once I can yank hairs out with the root ball intact. Her owner wants to find out as well ...



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2002
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    409

    Default Buckskin!

    My vote is for buckskin for a few reasons. I posted a similar topic about a month ago with the same question - colt with cremello sire and dark bay dam - didn't pull hairs yet but the foal has answered it for me! He was born exactly the same color as yours - silvery smokey grey/grulla color and I was positive it was a smokey black (and I wanted a buckskin lol!). He has the same dorsal stripe as yours and after about a week I noticed stripes down the back of his front legs and stripes coming down the withers. He looked like true black foals I have seen. However it made sense to me that just like a true black, ANY brown hairs would disqualify it from being a true black or a smokey black since smokey is just diluted true black.

    Well at a couple weeks of age he got this really fawn/beige underbelly and lower sides. Now at around a month he's shedding out around the eyes and muzzle and he CLEARLY has brown hairs there where none existed in that newborn coat, so no way can he be a diluted true black, he has to be a sooty buckskin, problem solved!

    You also mention the "buckskin undertones" and by the very first photo you posted you can really see that brown shading in there unless the camera color is off. So I think that's a clear tipoff.

    I had people see mine and swear he looked grulla or dun (neither genetically possible) and if not, smokey black. Then a client emailed me a photo of a foal of hers from last year that was even darker and more newborn-black-coat looking than my foal, and now at a year old hers is clearly buckskin.

    But do post the DNA results when you have them, would love to know and maybe I am all wrong



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by murph View Post
    He has the same dorsal stripe as yours and after about a week I noticed stripes down the back of his front legs and stripes coming down the withers.
    Sooty can very well put dun-like markings on a horse So, you probably have a sooty buckskin. Do you have those pictures, and any current ones?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2002
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Sooty can very well put dun-like markings on a horse So, you probably have a sooty buckskin. Do you have those pictures, and any current ones?
    Hey JB, I've got some pics from about 10 days ago but still gotta put them on my website, oops! Maybe I'll make a concerted effort to get that done today I was just turning horses out and looked at this foal and wow it's so amazing how quickly and how many times buckskins can change color as he's now basically a light beige all over!



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 11, 2002
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    The Cliffs of Insanity
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    3,992

    Default

    Could she be considered a grulla?


    \"For all those men who say, \"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free,\" here\'s an update for you: Nowadays 80% of women are against marriage. Why? Because women realize it\'s not worth buying an entire pig just to get a little sausage.\"-



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    TCF breeds TBs, these are both TB, no dun in TB, therefore no grulla
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2004
    Location
    Medford Oregon
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    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura View Post
    Could she be considered a grulla?
    She can't be grulla, dun doesn't exist in thoroughbreds and she is a purebred. If she were smokey black I'd look for some signs, that granted aren't totally reliable but will help. A few smokey blacks have dark blue eyes, some have gold ear hair. These aren't 100% of course. The only way to be totally sure is to have her tested. I would have her tested anyway just as a way of clearing it up. As such a young foal it will take a while before she sheds out to her true color.
    Also if she has "dun-like" markings its countershading. Some foals are born with distinct dorsals and leg stripes but they go away.
    Last edited by darkmoonlady; Jun. 13, 2008 at 11:44 AM. Reason: add more info



  14. #14

    Default Wait a minute

    A smokey black is undistinguishable from a normal black horse since the cream gene in question only affects the red hair not the black. Why would a foal be any different? Smokey black foals look all the world like other black foals! If it looks like a black foal then it is a smokey black and at it grows up it will look like any other black horse. I don't understand the big deal -anyway and anycolor it will look really nice with all that chrome.

    Looks black to me.



  15. #15
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    A smokey black foal is not always indistinquishable from a plain black foal. Teal eyes are often a dead giveaway, but the lack of them does not automatically mean it's regular black. A smokey black can be quite dark, darker than a normal black foal, or it can be quite pale, lighter than a silvery/mousey normal black.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    If you look at a couple of this foal's pictures, you can see the teal eyes
    http://www.umenno.com/prija/

    This is a smokey black - doesn't look like a "normal" black to me
    http://www.doubledilute.com/images/Missy2.jpg

    Another smokey black adult - looks different than simply a sunbleached black
    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...manderdeck.jpg

    But sometimes, they DO look like a normal black

    http://www.doubledilute.com/images/smokyblack2.jpg
    However, that foal has teal eyes

    An adult smokey black that looks black
    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...onybonanza.jpg
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  17. #17

    Default

    >>A smokey black foal is not always indistinquishable from a plain black foal. Teal eyes are often a dead giveaway, but the lack of them does not automatically mean it's regular black. A smokey black can be quite dark, darker than a normal black foal, or it can be quite pale, lighter than a silvery/mousey normal black<<<

    Yes I've heard that the eyes of foals with the cream gene *can* be a different color-sometimes-. I've seen quite a few palomino foals with brown eyes at birth and some bays with no cream in them with some blue-greenish eyes in their first few days.

    There is no question this foal has the cream gene with a double dilute parent (so what color are its eyes?), but the question is on the hair color and except for some discoloration due to the amniotic fluid (which can be expected on all foals) if the foal looks like a black foal then it is likely black and the cream gene will play no role in the color of its coat.

    My black gelding was born dark mouse color (like this foal), got charcoal, turned to a weird lilac roan and finally settled on black for the rest of his life.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2007
    Location
    Poulsbo, WA
    Posts
    924

    Default BUCKSKIN is my vote, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by murph View Post
    My vote is for buckskin for a few reasons. I posted a similar topic about a month ago with the same question - colt with cremello sire and dark bay dam - didn't pull hairs yet but the foal has answered it for me! He was born exactly the same color as yours - silvery smokey grey/grulla color and I was positive it was a smokey black (and I wanted a buckskin lol!). He has the same dorsal stripe as yours and after about a week I noticed stripes down the back of his front legs and stripes coming down the withers. He looked like true black foals I have seen. However it made sense to me that just like a true black, ANY brown hairs would disqualify it from being a true black or a smokey black since smokey is just diluted true black.

    Well at a couple weeks of age he got this really fawn/beige underbelly and lower sides. Now at around a month he's shedding out around the eyes and muzzle and he CLEARLY has brown hairs there where none existed in that newborn coat, so no way can he be a diluted true black, he has to be a sooty buckskin, problem solved!

    You also mention the "buckskin undertones" and by the very first photo you posted you can really see that brown shading in there unless the camera color is off. So I think that's a clear tipoff.

    I had people see mine and swear he looked grulla or dun (neither genetically possible) and if not, smokey black. Then a client emailed me a photo of a foal of hers from last year that was even darker and more newborn-black-coat looking than my foal, and now at a year old hers is clearly buckskin.
    I'm also going to guess buckskin b/c our now 2 1/2 week old colt (black dam, dark buckskin sire) started out looking very similar - I thought for sure that he was a smokey black. He didn't have any tan hairs like our other buckskins have had, he was just a beautiful mousy grey w/ black points like a grulla. But we just got the DNA tests back and it turns out that he is a buckskin!

    Today (as with murph's experience above), I started noticing some tan hairs starting to come in on his forehead...

    Here our some pix:
    http://www.warmblood-color.com/Pages...Yukon2008.html

    TrueColours - lovely filly, please be sure to let us know when DNA solves the mystery!
    Blacktree Farm
    Lessons, training & sporthorse sales. Proud supporter of our buckskin German Warmblood stallion, Yeager GF.
    Blacktree Studio
    Graphic Design, Web Design & Photography.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,810

    Default

    Dark buckskin like my GG filly out of Shew I would say.

    But after all these years I have been puzzled sometimes. Some are born dark and get lighter and golden and some are born creamy and get darker with the time.

    So the only thing is to wait until the foal coat has shed to see what it is underneath..... it is like unwrapping a present slooooowwwwllllyyyy.

    She is super lovely!!!
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
    Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2002
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    409

    Default

    OK here's a link to some photos of our 2008 colt that I have decided is buckskin as I mentioned above. The photos here were taken about about 2.5 weeks of age and he'd already lightened up SO much from birth! For the first week or so he was a dark mousey gray all over, looked just like TC's filly, not a hint of brown. Now almost 2 weeks later from the photos shown (he's just turned a month old) he is basically a light sandy beige all over, almost just like a nice buttermilk buckskin. I am SHOCKED at how fast this foal has changed color!

    http://www.missionridgefarm.net/mares3.html

    As mentioned he is now shedding around the eyes and muzzle and the whole shedded out ring around the eyes shows medium brown hairs, so he's definitely not a smokey black. I expect he will shed out a typical sooty buckskin, with some parts of him looking dark bay and other parts light buckskin, sort of a mottled all over look PS my daughter named him Smokey LOL, no reference to the color

    Aurum that is SO true about buckskins, man they just keep changing and fooling you. I had one last year born a gorgeous buttermilk color that then went this kinda ugly dark grey/ashey mucky looking color after he shed, and now this year is back to being pretty much light buttermilk with some countershading. Then I have one that was a light caramel color at birth that has shed out the most gorgeous bright caramel with dapples and the lovely dark points, pretty much my personal dream color!



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