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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Default Black hole in mouth with "cauliflower" growing out? Updated with pics pg 2

    My old man Polo has the ODDEST thing. In two places on the roof of his mouth, just behind each of the two respective front teeth, he has a black hole with a cauliflower looking thing growing out.

    On his tongue, where these things would touch, he has a growth as well.

    He has had the tongue thing for a LONG time-I thought it was just some kind of scarring from his canines...

    The dentist was out and thought the same thing until she sedated him, put the speculum in and found the black holes.

    She cut a piece of tissue and sent it off and waiting the report.

    She has never seen this and no one I have spoken with has.

    Since the report is taking so long, I thought I would get feedback here.

    Initial thoughts are-oral infection connected to his Cushing's, fungal infection, oral abscess, or oral cancer.

    Anyone?
    Last edited by LMH; Jun. 12, 2008 at 02:26 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 1, 2007
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    855

    Default

    Is he grey? I've seen melanomas on the lips look like that, but never actually in the mouth.



  3. #3
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    Oct. 11, 2000
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    Default

    sounds fungal, humans can get something similar too, I can't remember what it's called and why or how



  4. #4
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    Jan. 27, 2007
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    285

    Default

    Horses do get melanomas inside the mouth. The vet told me my grey mare has them but I haven't ventured to see them myself. They can be a problem if they rupture.



  5. #5
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    Jul. 20, 2003
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    CA
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    Default

    Sarcoids?
    Horsezee



  6. #6
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    sounds like cancer, and i do know the name of it but its on the tip of my tongue, but its maglient tumours not sure if it was you i posted on though



  7. #7
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    He is a bay.

    I have googled for hours and just can't find anything.

    GLS-are you thinking of a carcinoma type tumor? Squamous Cell Carcinoma? I was reading they are common in the eye but one site mentioned they could grow in the mouth.

    The symmetry of it is odd...seems less like cancer. But it hit me late last night that maybe it is one BIG thing that just appears like two things.

    The fact there are corresponding thingies on his tongue sounds more fungal, again...I have never really known cancer to spread by contact?

    Still no news from the darn tissue tests.



  8. #8
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Talk about timing. The report just came in and he has:

    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2]Eroded squamous plaques with bacteria and chronic purulent inflammation

    The equine dentist/vet is consulting with Dr Lowder at UGA so I will have more information soon.

    Now I just have to understand what that means
    [/SIZE][/FONT]



  9. #9
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    Nov. 24, 2005
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    St. Simons Island, GA
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    Default

    It sounds like they are still working on a compete diagnosis...I got an initial report like that when we were trying to figure out what type of skin thing Bo had going on. I know you're frustrated, so I'm sending big hugs and big jingles for Polo!

    Is Polo doing well otherwise?
    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
    5/5/84-7/12/08



  10. #10
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    Jul. 27, 2007
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    Behind the Orange Curtain
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    Well, I know "squamous plaques" are scaly things like psoriasis, and the purulent discharge means there is pus in there (and the bacteria), so there's some sort of scaly thing that got infected. I am sure there's more to it than that but in the meantime I would think he'd need antibiotics?

    I would guess that he's got some sort of growth that got infected and the infection ate away (the "black holes").

    Not any sort of horse expert, but I get a lot of infections so "purulent" is a word I hear a lot And, I have had infections that ate holes in my skin.



  11. #11
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appassionato View Post
    Is Polo doing well otherwise?
    I have no idea sometimes.

    He started on the Pergolide about 2? weeks ago? I don't know. He seemed better at first, then had a few days of aggression.

    Now he is flat out depressed. But it has been almost 100* every day.

    Hell, IR, Cushings and now some vegetable growth in his mouth.

    He was far too dignified his entire life to be heading down this road.



  12. #12
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    Nov. 24, 2005
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    St. Simons Island, GA
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    FWIW about the pergolide, I've read that some horses symptoms worsen when first starting it. I can only speak from my own observations (IOW, please research other's experiences as well), but with Bo is physical appearance (long hair, general Cushing's look, etc.) got MUCH worse after starting the pergolide but his overall demeanor improved. His appearance frightened me enough to retest his ACTH levels in order to check his pergolide levels. I also checked for IR, it was negative. I don't know if Polo is IR, but if he is, that may be wreaking havoc somewhat despite the pergolide for Cushing's? The nearly 100* weather has been a real PITA down here as well. I feel your pain!

    In any case, let's wait and see what the results of the mouth thing actually is, then proceed. In the meantime, more hugs and jingles! You know, just thinking out loud, but my understanding is that Cushing's (and possibly IR too) can impair the immune system a bit...maybe this mouth thing with Polo is actually a secondary problem to his original problems? I mean, like it matters which condition caused what, you'd like them all to be fixed and gone. Just thinking out loud!
    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
    5/5/84-7/12/08



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appassionato View Post

    You know, just thinking out loud, but my understanding is that Cushing's (and possibly IR too) can impair the immune system a bit...maybe this mouth thing with Polo is actually a secondary problem to his original problems? I mean, like it matter which condition caused what, you'd like them all to be fixed and gone. Just thinking out loud!
    That was actually my first thought. So yes we shall know soon enough.

    And yes Mr P is IR. Normal insulin is 5-20 and his was 200+ when I checked it.

    So his body is likely having some reorganization issues.



  14. #14
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    LMH -

    I don't know if this helps you at all, but in humans, some endocrine disorders can really wreak havoc with the immune system. Bacterial or fungal infections can be super nasty and be hard to eliminate because they spread so fast.

    I bet now that the horse is being treated for his condition, and you know what is causing the lesions, he'll be much better soon.

    I'd say give him a peppermint as a treat - but a gentle hug and a wither scratch is probably better for him. Hope all goes well.



  15. #15
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    Aug. 9, 2007
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    Default ketaconozole

    can horses take ketaconozole? UGA vet school did a big study on that drug before it was approved, and it works if there is a fungal infection. systemic fungal infections are hard to clear up. (My cat was one of the experimentals in that study and lived to be 18).
    hope it is something minor and not fungal.
    oh, they do use gentian (sp) violet for human fungal infections in the mouth.
    good luck. hope it is minor,
    Last edited by cloudyandcallie; Jun. 11, 2008 at 01:45 PM. Reason: sp



  16. #16
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    Jul. 4, 2004
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    E. Washington
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Talk about timing. The report just came in and he has:

    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2]Eroded squamous plaques with bacteria and chronic purulent inflammation[/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS]The equine dentist/vet is consulting with Dr Lowder at UGA so I will have more information soon.[/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Now I just have to understand what that means[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][FONT=Comic Sans MS][/SIZE][/FONT]
    I lost a 28 yr old arabian gelding a few years ago to what we assume was squamous cell cancer. He was advanced Cushings, but stable. None of my vets had ever seen anything like it. Very virulent and fast, we do suspect it was Cushings related somehow.

    I hope your horse has something else.



  17. #17
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    craz..what did yours look like?

    The dentist took pics-I will ask her to email them so I can upload photos.



  18. #18
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    Jul. 4, 2004
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    E. Washington
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    craz..what did yours look like?

    The dentist took pics-I will ask her to email them so I can upload photos.
    It started out as just a swelling under the jaw and he was off his feed and NQR. This was Friday. I don't normally call a vet when a horse doesn't finish his grain, but Gumdrop was 28 yrs old and advanced Cushings.

    Saw vet Sat am, other than slight swelling under the jaw and not feeling well, nothing to see. No visible sores in his mouth. Put him on Banamine and fed him anything he could eat including Senior feed and alfalfa (not his regular IR diet). Still not eating well over the weekend, but hung out in pasture and ate some. Was eating less and less in the stall. Discussed blood work with vet, but it was Presidents Day weekend, so no labs open anyway. Made appt for Tues am early to pull blood and see what was going on.

    Tues the swelling under his jaw was much larger and we got excited that it was an abcess. That would be a good thing. Still nothing inside his mouth. By afternoon after constant hot packing, the swelling was larger and could see a nodule in his mouth that I though could be an abcess. It was really angry looking, yellow and purple. Off to the vet to get it lanced. Vet went to lance the nodule and it was nothing but blood, lots and lots of blood. Then we knew something was seriously wrong. Doubled his Banamine and took him home. He was my daughters horse so it was her decision. Arrangements were made to have to vet come out to look further into it or euthanize if necessary.

    Wed am - Gumdrop's swelling had increased terriblely, up behind his ears, his entire mouth was necrotic both sides, under his tongue and he had gone blind, he couldn't swallow, eat or drink. This was overnight. Sigh.

    We sent him over the bridge. No necropsy was done, but vet did research and made lots of phone calls. An extremely aggressive squamous cell vascular cancer seemed to be the answer, very rare. His Cushings tumor could have turned malignant, no way to know.

    We miss him.

    I sincerely hope this isn't what your horse has. Any sort of Squamous Cell terrifies me.



  19. #19
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    Albany NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    Well, I know "squamous plaques" are scaly things like psoriasis, and the purulent discharge means there is pus in there (and the bacteria), so there's some sort of scaly thing that got infected. I am sure there's more to it than that but in the meantime I would think he'd need antibiotics?

    I would guess that he's got some sort of growth that got infected and the infection ate away (the "black holes").

    Not any sort of horse expert, but I get a lot of infections so "purulent" is a word I hear a lot And, I have had infections that ate holes in my skin.
    Ack, barf, thanks for sharing.
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.



  20. #20
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    Feb. 28, 2001
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    Thanks for the comments everyone.

    Still waiting on the dentist to speak to the dentist at UGA.

    I do have photos though but can't upload them here



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