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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2002
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    Alberta, Canada
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    Default Stallion Owners who ship semen - how to prevent unathorized use of semen?

    I was thinking about this topic this morning and wondering how you would prevent a Mare Owner from inseminating multiple mares if more than one happened to be in heat. I have always wondered if someday, I would find an Alvesta Picasso baby advertised out of a mare we did NOT send semen to. Oddly enough, someone else posted about this very topic on another board this morning so now I'm really curious:

    Stallion Owner ships semen to ONE booked mare to only find out later that semen was used on multiple mares when shipment arrived. So, the question is, how do Stallion Owners prevent this from happening?

    I realize sending only one insemination dose would help curb that situation from happening but, personally, I'd hate to just sent one insemination dose...although really, that's all that would be needed. We also make sure to send a Delivery Certificate that the Mare Owners veterinarian or repro tech. has to fill out, sign and send back and they must state if one or all doses were used. Does anyone ask for the unused dose(s) to be send back in the shipping container? Yuch. Can't imagine how lovely that is to get back in a week.

    Is there any way to prevent it or, if a Mare Owner decides that's what they want to do, they'll find a way to do it and the Stallion Owner is s..t out of luck!
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Pony, ISR/Oldenburg & RPSI pony stallions Daventry's Power Play, Goldhills Brandysnap LOM & Alvesta Picasso
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    9,314

    Default

    I have heard this is sometimes a problem, particularly with hunter breeders who are not overly concerned with registering the foals. I know several stallion owners that were ripped off by unscrupulous mare owners who claimed their mare didn't take with the first shipment, so ordered another shipment (and sometimes a third). The next year, these mare owners had multiple foals from several different mares but they had only paid one stud fee. The scam was discovered when the buyers of the foals asked a registry that the stallion was approved by to help them obtain registration papers for their foals.

    I don't know what can be done to prevent it, other than to have a very good contract that spells out the possible consequences if a mare owner tries to pull a fast one. Even then, it pretty much depends on luck to catch someone in the act.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
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    Default

    Well, there would be no way to register the resulting foal, plus if they advertise it as the foal of such and such, wouldn't that be evidence of fraud or theft of services?

    Jennifer



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2002
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    Alberta, Canada
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    Default

    But, like DownYonder mentioned, most hunter riders and trainers don't care if the horse or pony has papers or not. Particularly with the pony hunter industry, they could still sell an outstanding foal or youngster without papers and without identifying bloodlines and still get a pretty penny for them on the Pony Hunter circuit if they were talented.
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Pony, ISR/Oldenburg & RPSI pony stallions Daventry's Power Play, Goldhills Brandysnap LOM & Alvesta Picasso
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Posts
    538

    Default

    This happened at a barn near me. The barn was owned by a dressage rider, but was primarily H/J. The owner had a lovely mare that was to be bred AI to a fairly prominent WB stallion. The vet did inseminate the mare, but also inseminated the BM's mare. The BM was so arrogant that he actually bragged about the deed. The owner's mare did not take, but the BM's mare did. The owner found out and sued the BM and the vet and won. The BM's baby turned out to be a less than spectacular specimen of equine and never did anything of note despite the daddy.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 7, 2002
    Location
    UNITED STATES
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    2,869

    Default

    I had someone try this with my boy, but the mare owners vet. called me and asked if my 2 doses were mean for 4 mares? (he has really good semen). I said NO---only for one and she WON this breeding with AWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They had already bred 2 mares.

    Also, she had called me to say she needed semen and that she was the winner at the same time. SO, I was nice, sent the semen and the contract together. She sent it back with writing on it--saying that it was okay for her to breed those mares??????????????????????????????????????? (I was stupid and sent the contract signed---she was actually my first client too!!!!) SO, that was a good lesson. My contract is now 8 pages long and anything wrote on it has to be initialed.

    I had my attorney check out what she wrote and explained the "horsey world to him.

    I did have a clause in the contract that nothing could be added to it. SO, that wiped out her addition.

    SO, my attorney sent her a letter and another contract for the other mare bred with the full price of the stud fee------she was lucky we were in a good mood and we took it as a lesson learned.

    Both horses turned out really nice and she sold both. What a bummer though--first time lesson.

    THE LIST GOES ON!! Every time something happens, my contract gets longer. ha ha ha
    *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
    ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    3,373

    Default

    I don't think there is probably anything you can do to truly prevent it..... if someone is unscrupulous, they are going to figure out a way to get around it.

    Like you, we always ship two insemination doses..... and someone DID recently contact me about a 3 year old Mardi baby that should NOT exist, according to my records. ALL of the 3 year old boys of that color are accounted for, and in their original homes.

    I admit that I DID wonder the first year we shipped semen from him to a mare at a particular stallion station REPEATEDLY, when everything else was getting in foal on the first try..... maybe it was just a problem mare, or maybe that is where the mystery foal was concieved.

    Interestingly, once I told the owners of the three year old (who were NOT the breeders -- and are someone you know of in the south) that I didn't know who it could possibly have been, they suddenly disappeared off the map and stopped asking about paperwork.

    We'll see if they resurface.... I WOULD be curious (VERY) to know HOW this foal came about, because if it IS indeed by my stallion, according to our records, it was NOT from a mare that we shipped semen for.
    Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
    Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2003
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    6,818

    Default

    You can have the provision that the mare must be bred by a Licensed Veterinarian and have either a breeding passport or certification for the Vet to sign stating the semen was used to breed ONLY the mare stipulated in the contract and that any un-used semen was destroyed.

    BTW - a friend of mine had a client who never paid the stud fee on a foal (long story) and she ended up with the resulting foal (which at the time of going to court was a 5 year old mare). I can see where someone using semen for unauthorized breedings could find themselves in the same situation.
    Last edited by ise@ssl; May. 28, 2008 at 08:03 AM.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 15, 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
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    2,516

    Default

    i do know of one case where this happened (with full telling to the SO- but only one breeding fee paid) SO went after the mare owner for the second breeding fee (both mares i believe did catch) even before knowing if the second mare caught...
    Qualified Saddle Fitter with the S.M.S.
    www.ravenwoodaussies.com



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 1, 2002
    Posts
    216

    Default

    Hi,

    I had the same worry about unauthorized use (I always ship 2 breeding doses). So I inserted this wording; I borrowed a lot of it from some TB contracts, so I am printing it in full here and you are welcome to use it. Please notice that buried in the boiler-plate stuff is a lien on the foal if unpaid balances are not taken care of.

    We do need this stuff because while 99% of most people are pretty good, there is the whole range of human behavior. If someone is a boarder and will take someone else's tack without thinking it through, they may think it is ok to get a 2-fer and breed that extra mare.Many people know how to inseminate and do not need a vet for that.

    . Mare owner agrees that the semen will only be used for the mare named in this contract. If any other mare is bred without Magpie Farm's written approval, then a penalty fee of three times the stallion fee is due from the mare owner named in this contract. Embryo transfers must be approved in advance, and are subject to private treaty. One stud fee is due for each resulting embryo. In the event of a dispute, mare owner agrees that the venue all legal proceedings will be in Yakima County, WA. The mare owner agrees to pay all collection costs, including attorney fees, court costs, necessary travel expenses, postage or express mail fees, etc necessitated or reasonable incurred by Magpie Farm or collection agency if there is late payment of any fees. Mare Owner agrees to pay all fees agreed upon in this agreement, including 1.5% per month finance charges for late balances. If payment in full has not been made by 60 days from the foal's birth, mare Owner hereby agrees that a lien on the resulting foal is granted to Stallion Owner and that the foal cannot be sold or ownership transferred until said lien is paid in full. A breeding certificate will not be issued unless all fees due to stallion owner are paid in full. If there are unpaid balances per the terms of this contract, Magpie Farm is not required to perform any services until full payment is made.

    Hope this helps,
    Mary

    Mary Baechler
    http://amorexswb.com/



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 17, 2008
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    86

    Default

    so what do you do when one shipment is used for one mare but it produces multiple embro's which are transferred successfully.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2001
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    Between the Medina River and a hay field
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    Default

    The only thing you can do is have the semen shipped directly to the repo vet with lables on the syringes for THAT MARE ONLY and hope the vet is honest and not a friend or family members. *rolling eyes*
    I think this happens more than we know to be honest. It already happened to us last year, but the horse world was small and someone told me they were excited to see multi babies that "so and so" had coming. I was like "What???"
    Anyway, it happens and its sad to be taken advantage of.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2001
    Posts
    1,559

    Default

    I ship to the vet clinic or the vet that the mare is being bred by, then follow up PRIOR to shipping it to let the vet know its only 1 breeding for the mare
    "whoever", and i send along a mare insemination report for the 1 mare with the disclaimer if any other mares are inseminated its the vets responsibility to for any fees if they inseminated any mare not named in the contact to them.
    :-)
    That takes care of it. I am trusting the vet who is inseminating to be honest- the above question about multiple embryos, on my contract lets me know if its an embryo transfer situation, and with that, i am notified day 8-9 with how many came out of the same 1 said mare.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 1, 2002
    Posts
    216

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tartanfarm View Post
    so what do you do when one shipment is used for one mare but it produces multiple embro's which are transferred successfully.
    That hasn't come up; but I would probably make them a good deal so they went away happy.
    Mary

    Mary Baechler
    http://amorexswb.com/



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 18, 2003
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    Davidsonville, MD
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    Default

    So, for those of you who ship directly to the vet, what do you do when the mare owner does their own inseminations? I know we do our own, and I'm sure there are others who do the same. I sent my mare to a breeding farm one year to be managed because I wasn't going to have the time to take off work for lots of ultrasounds, etc., and even there the farm manager did the insemination. I know on lots of breeding certificates I've seen, it asks for the inseminating vet's signature, but how many people actually can read the signature and/or KNOW the vet, etc? What happens in the case of natural twins that survive? Does the mare owner owe an additional stud fee for the second foal (it is technically a second embryo)? Just questions that come to mind... I'm a mare owner and engaged to a stallion owner, so I'm not trying to stir things up, just asking honest questions.... When I was just a mare-owner, I would always throw away the unused semen - I would NEVER have put it in another mare, tempting though it may have been.

    I like the lien idea - makes perfect sense to me. Maybe it would at least make a mare owner think twice before being dishonest!!
    Erin
    Dodon Farm - Home of Salute The Truth, Thoroughbred Stallion and on Facebook
    The Retired Racehorse Training Project, a 501(c)3 Non profit organization.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2002
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Erin Petersen View Post
    So, for those of you who ship directly to the vet, what do you do when the mare owner does their own inseminations? I know we do our own, and I'm sure there are others who do the same. I sent my mare to a breeding farm one year to be managed because I wasn't going to have the time to take off work for lots of ultrasounds, etc., and even there the farm manager did the insemination. I know on lots of breeding certificates I've seen, it asks for the inseminating vet's signature, but how many people actually can read the signature and/or KNOW the vet, etc? What happens in the case of natural twins that survive? Does the mare owner owe an additional stud fee for the second foal (it is technically a second embryo)? Just questions that come to mind... I'm a mare owner and engaged to a stallion owner, so I'm not trying to stir things up, just asking honest questions.... When I was just a mare-owner, I would always throw away the unused semen - I would NEVER have put it in another mare, tempting though it may have been.

    I like the lien idea - makes perfect sense to me. Maybe it would at least make a mare owner think twice before being dishonest!!
    I also like the lien idea and will be adding that clause to my contract. The horror stories on here really make me think twice about sending a second dose but, some Mare Owners, vets and repro techs feel the need to use it.

    As far as twins go, there is less than a 1% chance of a mare carrying twins, successfully carrying them to terms and surviving. So, the chance of a Stallion Owner encountering that problem is likely next to nil. That being said, we had a Mare Owner successfully have a set of healthy twin fillies this year. The Mare Owner won the stud fee in a stallion service auction for about 50% of our normal stud fee so she certainly got a deal. I would NEVER for a second thought about charging her an additional stud fee just because the mare had twins. Twins isn't always an easy task for the mare, the owner and for the twins. As well, they can often incur big vet bills, blood work, around the clock monitoring, etc. To me, the Mare Owner has had enough headaches with the twins that she doesn't need to be getting another bill from me. That's one of the wonders of nature and the gamble we take when breeding. I know as a Mare Owner myself, I'd be pretty PO'd at a Stallion Owner if I had twins and the Stallion Owner wanted me to pay an additional stud fee.
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Pony, ISR/Oldenburg & RPSI pony stallions Daventry's Power Play, Goldhills Brandysnap LOM & Alvesta Picasso
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2003
    Location
    Wynnewood, Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,195

    Default

    While I know it happens, I believe most people are honest and ethical - call me old fashioned There all kinds of things you can do in an attempt to stop it from happening, but at the end of the day, those individuals that are going to cheat, will find a way. And why place the onus on the vet or breeding facility? It's not their job to police breeders for you. When I ship out semen, it is accompanied by a document that has information on the stallion, semen analysis, mare to be bred and mare owner's name. I suspect most of the time, it's never even looked at.

    There are a few unauthorized Mannhattan kids out there and I know where they came from - it's not that difficult to figure out. It's irritating, but in the scheme of things, if it's going to happen, no amount of wording in contracts, threats, etc., are going to probably prevent it from happening.

    Having a really restrictive contract that requires the mare owner to jump through hoops, return all kinds of insemination certificates, checking up with the vet, etc., leaves a REALLY bad taste for the mare owner. I know that I would chafe if I feel like someone is questioning my honesty, integrity and ethics with no reason to have done, so I would expect someone else would feel the same.

    With regards to embryo transfers and multiple embryos, one can put a clause in your breeding contract that the first breeding/embryo is for the full breeding fee, with the second embryo at a discounted breeding fee. Let's face it, if they are willing to do an ET with their mare and your stallion, it probably is a pretty nice mare <smile> and those are the babies you WANT out there representing your stallion!

    Life's too short. Focus on taking good care of those mare owners that are breeding to your stallion and hopefully, they'll repay that good will. It's not worth irritating good broodmare owners for the handful of dishonest breeders...at least in my humble opinion.

    Hope that helps!

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 10, 2006
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    Clemson, SC
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    Default

    Just a thought, as I am neither a mare owner nor stallion owner, though hopefully one day! Could you stipulate that if the mare is to be bred by a vet that 2 doses will be sent and if the mare owner wants to inseminate on their own then only one dose will be sent at a time? Or offer to send 2 doses with a stipulation in the contract stating that an affidavit from the vet must be sent stating that only one embryo resulted from the semen and add hefty penalties if they were dishonest. If their vet isn't willing to sign then they only get one dose.

    As I said, I have limited knowledge in this area, but maybe this idea would work for some of you.
    A lovely horse is always an experience.... It is an emotional experience of the kind that is spoiled by words. ~Beryl Markham



  19. #19

    Default

    I kind of like the $$$ per dose like frozen semen, if you are clever, have a good repro vet and a healthy mare you can get your mare infoal reasonably. And the stallion owner isn't stuck in a contract with someone who might be impossible to work with. Just a thought.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    Default

    I depend upon an ethical veterinarian who is inseminating the mare. That is why my contracts stipulate that the mare must be insemintated by a licensed veterinarian -- that give me recourse should there be any hanky panky about the use of the semen shipped.

    I send an Insemination Certificate with the shipment that must be signed by the vet with the date and time of each insemination -- and returned with the Equitainer or no further shipment will be made (if the mare does not conceive).

    It is clearly stated that the semen shipped if for the SINGLE mare (name of mare and owner of mare are stated on the form) for which the owner has contracted to breed to my stallion (also named on the form).

    It also states that any unsused semen had been destroyed on premises BY THE VET, and the vet must sign and attest to that action. In the case of frozen semen, it is to be returned. The vet attests to the number of straws he/she used.

    Now if a vet and an owner are in cahoots...nothing I can do about that. But I've only had one case where that might have happened. Got the Equitainer back with 2 empty bags of semen, owner said they "missed" her cycle, no Certificate returned...and asked for another shipment (which I didn't send as I couldn't get a call back from the vet). Three years later I got a call from someone who had a Boleem baby they wanted to register that was bred by this person.

    You know what -- I busted my butt to help these folks get this kid registered and he was through DNA testing.

    I could never find this gal who made $$ off my stallion and wasted so much of my time. I'm just glad this youngster wound up in good hands. Freebie -- I've never heard anything about his since. Sad for me, but I hope he's doing well.



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