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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Dangerous riding setdowns/AERC

    In the sport of endurance, when a horse dies on a ride, for any reason, it triggers an immediate inquiry under AERC (American Endurance Ride Conference) rules.
    It would be easy to get from them their protocals.
    The results of the inquiry determine penalties, setdowns, whatever, and the results are always printed in the AERC Magazine.
    This is part of the culture of endurance, as a sport, to be exceedingly non tolerant of anything even hinting of horse abuse.
    Their motto is "To finish is to win." Eventing`s unofficial motto is "Over, under, or through."
    Just there you can see a huge cultural difference.
    So if we in eventing investigated each horse accident with the possibility of assigning blame, instead of usually saying "poor baby, your horse died, so terribly sorry", I do believe we would start to change our basic culture.
    Think about this.



  2. #2
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    Yup,
    But here in lies the dilemma, we have all these layers we have to peel off if the death occurred at prelim and above. We have to deal with the gestapo of the USEF and FEI. THAT'S where we get really pissed off because then we know the rider is only, or maybe, possibly, if we're lucky, get a slap on the wrist. And then continue to compete when we(the people of the sport) still harbor bad feelings towards that person because we KNOW they haven't learned their lesson.
    Are the USEF and FEI going to change their ways? Heck no. I work for the DofD and I know they don't change sh- for 20 years. Even if it takes a nanosecond to change a little something, doesn't matter. Not going to do it.



  3. #3
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    Changing a culture that began in cavalry days isn`t going to be easy.
    But is that a reason not to try?
    The young lady that`s being talked about so much had been warned and warned. Had there been penalties in place, she might have listened.
    The AERC office is in Ca. A simple phone call from our USEA office to theirs, just to kick ideas around, how hard is that? For a start?



  4. #4
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    I was thinking about the "go fast, faster, fastest" attitude last night as I was doing my barn chores. I'd love to see, instead of dressage ribbons for the best test, a ribbon for the rider who was closest to optimum time. It's a small idea, but it's time to start rewarding riding the pace, not going hell bent.

    I'd also want to see the USEA publish the reports of dangerous riding and accidents like the AERC does.

    Cultural change in this sport starts with open dialogue between all competitors, officials, and volunteers. Whether we like it or not, the sport has morphed into something different, and I'm not so sure the 'warrior mentality' has a place in this sport anymore.



  5. #5
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    I'm a little pissy this morning at the gov't because I actually have a teeny code change that has now taken me 5 days to do because of peripheral crap
    So, I didn't want to poo poo the idea. Sorry.
    I think publishing the person in question who gets a flag or deemed dangerous is a great deterrent for the person.
    Would a demerit or something really be a wake up call? I think so. Hubby is a cop and they got that big speed calculator sign thingy. Stuck it in a known spot where folks should slow down. And statistically, it works. Also, if you have cops walking the beat, it's a deterrent. I'm thinking of assistant td on x-c day type of thing. The td can't be everywhere at once. At the big shows, they have the gj out there and seems to be working but at ht, we don't have that luxury.
    Wouldn't it be great to have one of those huge hooks and if the person is dangerous, just break out that hook and knock them off their horse immediately?
    I think the USEA should contact the AERC. And probably will since it's a great idea. I just don't think the USEF nor the FEI will do squat. Maybe just maybe, if the USEA imposes this kind of investigation and then hands out some kind of penalty, it would be enough. But I don't know if they have any authority if it's a CIC or CCI. Then again, we do see these people a ht and it might just work ...



  6. #6
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    Mar. 29, 2008
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    I hope that when selection time comes for any international event (Olympics, World Cup, Champ's, etc.) that people's record for riding hell bent for leather is taken into consideration. I'm sure not - but it is something that should be. They should not be rewarded by riding wrecklessly and winning or doing well by the skin of their teeth. Just because someone won or has done well - doesn't mean that they RODE well and that they thought of their horse's well being first. I'm sure you get what I am getting at....



  7. #7
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    Jul. 24, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fence2Fence View Post
    I was thinking about the "go fast, faster, fastest" attitude last night as I was doing my barn chores. I'd love to see, instead of dressage ribbons for the best test, a ribbon for the rider who was closest to optimum time. It's a small idea, but it's time to start rewarding riding the pace, not going hell bent.

    good idea except that from what I've receintly read, Opt Time shouldn't actually be achievable for most people. Maybe a ribbon for the person in the middle of the pack time wise.



  8. #8
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    Denny that's a great idea.

    As an aside (and I know you weren't talking about this but I'll add this anyway for others), I hope that riders of horses with artery ruptures are not blamed by the public. Horses do not have to be galloping full out to die from an artery rupture.



  9. #9
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    The culture needs to change so that these things aren't just whispered about. We need to be direct and honest and willing to hear criticism.



  10. #10
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    Along these lines, might it not be nice to emphasize "Best Condition" winners? As in endurance riding, the horse adjudged to be in the best shape at the end of the event?

    I believe this is done at some events--why not all?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  11. #11
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    In addition to what Denny said is eventing's motto:
    Eventing`s unofficial motto is "Over, under, or through
    I see an awful lot of "grab mane and kick on" posted on this board. I'd much rather see some people pull up and check the horse.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Along these lines, might it not be nice to emphasize "Best Condition" winners? As in endurance riding, the horse adjudged to be in the best shape at the end of the event?

    I believe this is done at some events--why not all?
    I love this idea. I think that there should be a mandatory vet box after cross country a la pony club rallies. If your horse is obviously overstressed for the level then you get penalties.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ja Da Dee View Post
    good idea except that from what I've receintly read, Opt Time shouldn't actually be achievable for most people. Maybe a ribbon for the person in the middle of the pack time wise.
    I think we should make it acheivable. Optimum time is figured by pace. With the advent of GPS and such we should be able to figure the optimum time in pieces so that a tricky place is figured at 350 mpm but a long galloping stretch is faster. THat way the optimum really reflects the best speed for the course.



  14. #14
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    Agreed.

    People do not know how to take or give criticism. Some appear to take it as a challenge and actions to back up the words are indeed needed.

    I remember growing up- when I made a mistake, my trainer let me know it was scary. Bad. Awful. My trainer insisted that I stay at 2'6 at shows until 3' was flawless at home. She had no qualms with making us scratch if we were riding like idiots. And me, my parents, her other clients - we never questioned her judgement.

    I think now that the respect for authority has somewhat eroded. If people are being told- "You are dangerous" and not making changes, then yes, official set downs are needed. Jockeys are penalized for dangerous riding. We penalize people for drugging. Personal responsibility only goes so far- the horses need protection from barn blind riders who have too much belief in themselves. And with eventing- I think to do it- you need faith in your ability and probably really most ULR's need extra eyes making sure that they are not taking undue risks.



  15. #15
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    Default ?

    Denny, when you say "the rider....was warned and warned to slow down", is that recorded somewhere, or just general 'knowledge' in ULR circles. I'm not trying to point fingers, here, but could there be a system whereby 'warnings' become a recorded thing. If so, then there might be more basis for setdown, disqualification, etc? Just a thought.



  16. #16
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    What is dangerous riding ?
    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
    Caveman extraordinair



  17. #17
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    If someone is "warned and warned" why are they rewarded by being made part of the developing riders program? The message is too conflicting, particularly if the warnings are "all talk". The action, the reward, that's what sticks.

    Emily
    "It's not a perfect world....But it's still good to be alive! If you don't know by now, you'll probably never understand the way it feels to wanna live....One Perfect Moment!!"



  18. #18
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    Default ..

    Perhaps it is subjective, but when I was jump judgeing at probably one of the most tricky parts of a Prelim course, a girl came through at a gallop and did not set up for anything. By luck and a good horse, she got through fine BUT the TD took off immediately to meet her at the finish line and give her a warning. The TD was serious business at this event. I think a penalty would have been totally appropriate.
    The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde



  19. #19
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    Pixie- if that was MCTA I also witnessed the TD giving somebody in the novice division a talk about DR. Basically you were going to fast and we have our eye on you. Afterwards, the rider was laughing about it.

    What I took away from that exchange was that the rider was not going to change her ways because she did not see herself as dangerous. Maybe actually giving her the DR penalty might have convinced her they were serious. The person seemed very concerned about her placing so the DR would have dropped her way down and hopefully convinced her to go home and work on controlling her horse before attempting to compete again.



  20. #20
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    At the same time, I once saw a stadium judge give a girl a warning about dangerous riding after watching a kid rush around with long reins. The kid was pretty stunned.

    Kid's trainer came up and and complained to the judge about making her rider upset. Consistent messages from TD's, Judge's and Trainers are needed. But some teeth - moving a placing down, suspensions and fines are probably the most effective message.



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