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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2001
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    Sheridan, IN
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    Default One fall and you're out rule

    Everyone:

    I aplogise for the goofy formatting I tried to edit it...

    I urge everyone to contact the USEA and USEF and make their opinions known on this rule change.

    I personally do not think simple falls, not related to obstacles should be penalized by elimination, at least from Training Level down. This past weekend a woman popped off her horse on x/c when he spooked at another horse coming out of the bushes. It was a silly fall, no one was hurt, she remounted and continued. I personally believe this rule to be a knee jerk reaction and believe it should not be passed.



    [FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]On May 15, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Penny & Brian Ross wrote:[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]The rule passed. After 3.5 hours on Tuesday ( BOG) another 4 hours on Wednesday Eventing Task force. In very passionate debates over the one fall =Elimination - Majority ruled! Tuesday The vote was 3 against ( me included) 9 for; Wednesday 2 ( me and one other) - not sure how many for but the ya's moved it forward to the USEF Exc. Committee for processing today no reason to think that we will not see this rule as of JUNE 1 2008! (Every single issue you all have written was brought up) . [/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]I am very conflicted to say the least to where we are as a sport at the moment! It is for me a very uncomfortable - emotionally & mentality, place to be. As it would seem that the Ya's know something that I don't or perhaps I am just not in the same place in my head as they are.[/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]Brian and I still are fighting to keep the long format for the one star alive, we also are fighting to keep our past alive.[/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]Majority rules and I understand that, like it - no, but understand . Perhaps they are right, perhaps this is the direction that our current community deems necessary - pass generations of riders and horses are gone forever and this is now a new generation and a new sport. [/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2] For us old folks is will never be the same.[/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]One thing I can say that is at all positive this morning for me, I will expect to see more entries at our schooling shows, they so much more FUN![/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2] For ever reason brought up like, we already have rules in place to address, they come back with; officials are not using them, Riders are not taking responsibility they are climbing back on and finishing when they should not. It is a competition and riders should be expected to stay on if they fall off they should go home and spend more money and time "practicing" rather then "practice while competing" . There is no proof that after one fall they ride better on and on and on![/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]There was much more discussed that I will share with you a bit later but I really MUST get times done and posted![/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]Until later folks[/SIZE][/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]Penny[/SIZE][/FONT]
    Last edited by LAZ; May. 19, 2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason: weird formatting



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 6, 2007
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    258

    Default

    I agree in spirit, but...

    I have seen some really bad falls that were not obstacle related, both on course and in warm-up. Nallabor seems to be an example of the former. I think these riders should be eliminated, but not the silly slip off's that you describe.

    Q:How do we write that rule?

    A: We can't.

    Thus,

    A)we catch some dolfins with the shark, and learn to live with it.

    OR

    B)accept responsibility for ourselves and reject the notion that RULES are the solution
    Last edited by groom; May. 19, 2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason: (I like option B best)



  3. #3
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    Apr. 11, 2007
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    body in charlottesville VA, heart in Ocala FL
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    Default

    Do we want to be safer or not? Yeah, there will be some people who had silly falls that could go on, but they can try again another day. There will always be other events. To be safer though I like the fall = E rule. It may not be ideal, but how do we judge who has an OK fall and who doesn't? It is better for everyone to be safer even if it is at the MINOR expense of another rider finishing that could have, than have unsafe riders out there.



  4. #4
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    Feb. 1, 2008
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    Nowhere, Maryland
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    Default

    My personal preference would be for this rule to apply only at P and above (boy can my horse spook when he wants to!) but if I have to choose between no rule at any level, and rule at every level, I would rather have the rule in place. Consider it taking one for the good of the sport, I guess.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2007
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    93

    Default

    but if a rider doesn't have a good enough seat to get through a spook (unless it is a major spook, then I understand) why should they continue on that day? Even a novice rider ought to have a good enough leg and seat to sit through a good spook. (and yes, I've come off from minor spooks years ago, and then my last job as a working student, I was the "velcro-butt" rider in the barn and had to sit on everything - and didn't fall, thankfully) A good seat won't come unstuck from unforeseen spooks. If I come off from a spook, I know I need to address my seat.



  6. #6
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    Jan. 25, 2004
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    Milton, Ontario
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    Default

    Falls are part of horse riding. By creating a no fall rule we will likely see some scary attempts to stay on. A no fall rule will not prevent idiots from eventing. What it will do is create the mindset that falling off is bad when in fact it isn't.



  7. #7
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    Jun. 9, 2003
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    Dolores,CO. Proud to be a Kraut
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    Default

    This not quiet correct, or half the story.

    The fall has to be in conection with a jump, falls that are not conected with a jump do not fall under this proposal.

    A nother proposal conected to the rule, is a medical check out, before a rider can get back on the next horse
    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
    Caveman extraordinair



  8. #8
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    Oct. 1, 2005
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    Sandy, Utah
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hony View Post
    Falls are part of horse riding. By creating a no fall rule we will likely see some scary attempts to stay on. A no fall rule will not prevent idiots from eventing. What it will do is create the mindset that falling off is bad when in fact it isn't.
    I agree completely. If you don't want to fall off of a horse, then don't ever get on one. I see this proposed rule as a dumbing down rather than addressing the real safety issues. Over 99% of falls off of a horse result in bruised egos at worst, even in competition.

    Now, I do agree that something needs to be done at lower levels regarding competitors who really don't have good seat/legs/hands and are out there, anyway. For starters their trainers need to be just saying no, because often these riders don't honestly know that they don't have a sufficient base to be giving it a go, they are relying on what their trainers tell them. Scary, but true.

    But penalizing all falls, whether defined as associated with fences or not...no.



  9. #9
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    Sep. 5, 1999
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    Central FL
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    4,379

    Default

    I have changed my mind on this issue.

    I used to be against this rule - again, for the rider who has a stirrup break, or falls on their feet, etc.

    BUT

    At least 2x in the last year while I've been a controller, a rider has fallen, seemed to be fine, remounted, and fallen again - the second time with serious injuries.

    Fence judges are already overworked, under appreciated, and much needed. We cannot ask them to differentiate between an "ok" fall and a "not ok" fall.

    So I am now for the "1 fall XC and you're out".

    It is already a rule in stadium (excuse me, "show jumping" )



  10. #10
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    Oct. 25, 2007
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    Default

    I agree that at first I was against the rule change, but I think it is a better safe than sorry move that needs to be taken.

    I was wondering though, at the Horse Trial level if running on true format D-XC-S (rather than D-S-XC), could a rider eliminated on XC ask to ride stadium as Hors Concours (sp?) ?



  11. #11
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    Aug. 23, 2006
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    Default

    Over in hunter/jumper land - if you fall off you are excused and that's that.



  12. #12
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    Jul. 24, 2002
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlightCheck View Post

    I Fence judges are already overworked, under appreciated, and much needed. We cannot ask them to differentiate between an "ok" fall and a "not ok" fall.

    I agree with Flightcheck about what we should task j-judges with.

    I've fallen when my horse looked at the jump and decided to do a 180. "Run for your life!" I landed on my butt, was not injured at all and able to continue. As frustrating as it would have been for me to walk off course that day, I dont think we will be able to write rules that are gray, and have jump judges apply them correctly. We also can't have a TD and a medic at each fence to make the decisions for us. The day I fell in competition (fence 2), we had a lovely warm-up, then a horrid ride, each fence I had to decide to pull up or not. He eventually worked out of his "mood", and completed the xc course fine, but was eliminated the next day in stadium when he wouldn't take his focus off of the tent. In hindsight, I probably should have walked off the course after the fall, or the second refusal 2 jumps later. I did learn alot about riding and evaluating when my horse isn't 100% on task though, so it wasn't a lost experience.



  13. #13
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    Sep. 13, 2000
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    Greenville, MI,
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    Default I dont think

    Eliminating a person for a fall is going to change the problems that exist, not by a long shot.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #14
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    Default

    H/J land is much different from XC land. I think a rule that allows officials to deal with riders on an individual basis might be more helpful. This way the rider who is loose in the tack and has one fall can be told they are not allowed to continue while the rider who's fall is do to something like a broken leather or an unusual slip can continue.



  15. #15
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    Thumbs up Exactly what I was thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Hony View Post
    Falls are part of horse riding. By creating a no fall rule we will likely see some scary attempts to stay on. A no fall rule will not prevent idiots from eventing. What it will do is create the mindset that falling off is bad when in fact it isn't.
    You worded it well. I thought so the mind set will be stay on at all costs!
    You know some folks will feel that way.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  16. #16
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    Default

    Could we please not interject more subjectivity into what is supposed to be, primarily, an objective sport? If we must be eliminated for a fall, then eliminate us for any fall while on the competition course. And, folks, it IS a horse riding competition. If you aren't on the horse, you aren't riding it. The reasons are irrelevant, it's just a fact.
    Treat Jockey for Spellbound and Smidgeon



  17. #17
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    Oct. 11, 2000
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    Default

    A fall is a fall. Doesn't matter if it's HJ or eventing. It's still competition. If you fall off H/J ON COURSE you're done. I'm surprised this hasn't been a rule in eventing. Why should you be allowed to finish the competition after you've fallen? Why is it an acceptable rule for your 2-3 min. stadium trip, but not for your 6-11min cross country trip where most of these accidents are occurring? Competitions are to show who is best that day or weekend. If you've fallen, you weren't the best. Game over, go home, evaluate what happened, and keep practicing and try again.

    Most people that fall have one of two things happen 1) they get rattled 2)they get mad. Getting right back on and continuing under both circumstances is just not safe for anyone.



  18. #18
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    Mar. 19, 2003
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    Charlottesville, VA
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    Default I strongly support this rule

    One thing I have always hated about eventing is the "if you are not bleeding or have not broken something (like in an overtly apparent way) then you aren't really that hurt" mentality.

    I have fallen off and gotton back on and finished courses only because I didn't want to hear my coach and friends give me a bunch of back talk for not really being "that hurt" on more than one occassion and I think that most of these very same people would probably admit that they have done the same. What is one of the first things we all learn when we are kids just starting out? ... If you fall off you have to get right back on... We are a bunch of bad ass athletes and we do have to have a certain "tough" mentality to even leave the start box. BUT... how many of you have known people to fall off, get back on and finish courses only to find out later that they have a concussion, broken arms, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders... I could name ten right now. Sometimes you don't have to hit the ground very hard at all to seriously hurt yourself and when adrenaline is involved the rider is not the right person to make these calls. And unless we are going to start requiring our jump judges to be actual doctors or EMT's then I do not think we can burden them with the job of deciding who is and is not injured enough to continue... We take such amazing care of our horses, and we fuss that the public does not perceive of what we do as a real sport... yet we refuse to give our own bodies the honor and respect that a real athlete deserves.

    Yes, it sucks if you have a "stupid" fall and have to go home, but... I'm not even sure if I believe in "stupid falls". I think that when we fall off there is usually a reason. So go home, train a little and try again next weekend.

    I think that if there is a concern about people doing crazy things to not hit the ground then there could be some kind of 10 second clause where if you are still hanging onto the horse's side after 10 seconds or so you are eliminated anyway so you might as well let go.

    In my mind, this is a long overdue rule change and was needed well before the recent bout of problems the sport has been facing.

    I also strongly believe that if anyone falls off and gets eliminated, or even if that rule change doesn't happen, they should have to get cleared by the EMT's before they are allowed to continue on other horses for the weekend.


    Rebecca



  19. #19
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    Oct. 6, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hony View Post
    Falls are part of horse riding. By creating a no fall rule we will likely see some scary attempts to stay on. A no fall rule will not prevent idiots from eventing. What it will do is create the mindset that falling off is bad when in fact it isn't.
    People already do some scary things to stay on and prevent getting the penalty points associated with falling off. I love watching the clip of Karen O'Connor on youtube trying to stay on her horse.

    I also agree that we do not need any more subjective rules in this sport.

    If the ruling is for a fall that is associated with a jump attempt then that doubles my support. At every level we have a responsibility to ourselves and our horses to approach jumps in a safe and controlled manner, yes things go wrong but a competent rider ought to be able to handle those situations.



  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
    A fall is a fall. Doesn't matter if it's HJ or eventing. It's still competition. If you fall off H/J ON COURSE you're done. I'm surprised this hasn't been a rule in eventing. Why should you be allowed to finish the competition after you've fallen? Why is it an acceptable rule for your 2-3 min. stadium trip, but not for your 6-11min cross country trip where most of these accidents are occurring? Competitions are to show who is best that day or weekend. If you've fallen, you weren't the best. Game over, go home, evaluate what happened, and keep practicing and try again.

    Most people that fall have one of two things happen 1) they get rattled 2)they get mad. Getting right back on and continuing under both circumstances is just not safe for anyone.
    Just to play devil's advocate... if you fall off in a hunter or jumper class, you have another shot in the next class, or the next day, or the day after that, since there are multiple classes over multiple days. You have another chance to get back on and ride in the next class. So, if a jumper rider falls in one class for a "silly" reason, should they not be allowed to show for the rest of the show, or at least the day?



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