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  1. #1
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    Default 2yo in training sales

    Videos of breeze show, Fasig-Tipton Timonium:

    http://fasigtipton.sitespace.com/default.asp?p=5

    Please note the use of whips. That's all I can say.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  2. #2
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    Default thanks for posting

    thanks for posting. I just hope no one dies in the preakness sat.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    thanks for posting. I just hope no one dies in the preakness sat.
    What does that have to do with the sale?



  4. #4
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
    Videos of breeze show, Fasig-Tipton Timonium:

    http://fasigtipton.sitespace.com/default.asp?p=5

    Please note the use of whips. That's all I can say.
    I'm not getting your point.

    Yeah, there is a ridiculous emphasis on speed in these sales, but an awful lot of good horses come out of them. And, yes, the riders have them rolling by the time they hit the lane. But, they are racehorses being sold at a race sale.

    If you are concerned about what you may think is excessive use of the whip, let me remind you - these horses go through the ring AFTER the breeze shows. No one is going to excessively whip a horse at one of these sales.

    I do think 2yo in training sales have gotten a little out of hand with the obsession for fast times. But, again, that's a more complex issue than you might think.

    Cloudyandcallie - thanks. That was really pleasant.



  5. #5
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    Jan. 19, 2008
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    Default

    at the sales the times have gotten way out of hand along with the whip, the drugs, the abuse....the sales have no bearing on a real race horse



  6. #6
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    Feb. 14, 2001
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    Does anyone have an opinion on Hip 107?

    I broke her as a yearling, rode her up until February when she went to training. I just started with the TB business, so I still don't know what makes a "good" one...but this filly was pretty darn cool, she'd make a darn fine event horse! I hope she does well on the track, she looks happy enough in her breeze.

    Is 22.2 fast? Too fast? Average/normal?
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventerAJ View Post
    Does anyone have an opinion on Hip 107?



    Is 22.2 fast? Too fast? Average/normal?
    Not fast enough, I'm afraid. The buyers are looking at 10 flat or a titch over for every furlong.

    Ridiculous.

    And beating a horse down the lane is also ridiculous. ALTHOUGH I watched one (I haven't seen but a handful) that got one "reminder" at the top of the stretch and then the rider just sat chilly and let the horse run. Hip 39, maybe?

    Yes, there are some nice horses that come out of those sales. For every nice horse, how many come out with bucked shins, blown ankles, chips, tendons, suspensories, or fried brains?

    Get rid of the whips. Emphasis should be on form, balance, evenness of stride, ability to move across the surface. Not blow-out speed.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  8. #8
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    May I remind everyone that horses have been RACING up to 5f already, so I don't know what the issue is with the sale.

    As pointed out in several post Derby comments, the whip is used not only to ask for speed but as a steering aid for a rider who (unlike a hunter rider) can't use their legs.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  9. #9
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    Default

    I watched several of the clips; probably at least a couple dozen. In the majority of the ones I saw, the riders didn't use their whips at all, or maybe once at the top of the lane to get the lead swap. There was one colt that got his shoulder smacked several times because he was trying to take the scenic route around the turn.

    Maybe I just picked different clips than the OP, but what I saw in those clips was very little use of the whip.

    Which doesn't mean that I think that all is hunky-dory with racing or with 2-year-old sales; far from it. But much like being able to interpret statistics however one wants, same can be done with watching just a small selection of a couple hundred videos from one sale.

    EventerAJ, that is a very cute filly. If you look at the times for all the horses that worked 2f in the preview, she's about average. Some ran in 21 and change, some ran 23 and change.
    Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    As pointed out in several post Derby comments, the whip is used not only to ask for speed but as a steering aid for a rider who (unlike a hunter rider) can't use their legs.
    Exactly what I was thinking while watching many of the videos. There was more whip than I'd like to see in very few of the videos. Most of them though, it was a tap on the shoulder for a lead change, or taps to steering. You could see some trying to lug to the outside.

    Just a question for the OP and a few others: Ever been on a race horse? And I'm not talking an OTTB.



  11. #11
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    Default

    I was told there was a 9.4 work today at Timonium. Even of that was in fifths instead of tenths (9.8) that is still insanely fast. I think it would definitely be a sales record if not a world record if that information is correct.



  12. #12
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    Jan. 6, 2007
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    I personally did not see anyone from the few I watched use the whip excessively - though if I was buying from 2 year old sales I would buy at Adena.



  13. #13
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    I do think that the emphasis on speed at the sales is getting out of hand. I will give you that.

    But use of whip? Please.

    I find the kicking and whipping in this

    far

    more

    offensive.

    Tight turns? Check.

    Propping stops? Check.

    Spurs? Check.

    Yanking on curb bits? Check.

    Fried brains? Check.

    I don't care how old those horses are, that kind of riding is rough on joints and tendons.

    There are plenty of used up QHs & paints that end up with the meat man, too.

    How much equine research regarding the effects that barrel racing and other gaming events have on growing horses has the AQHA funded?



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I was told there was a 9.4 work today at Timonium. Even of that was in fifths instead of tenths (9.8) that is still insanely fast. I think it would definitely be a sales record if not a world record if that information is correct.
    That was #455, a Repent colt, full brother to G2 winner Crown of Thorns.

    The time might be a sales record, but it isn't a world record. I think there have been about half a dozen 2YOs that have worked that fast at prior sales.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I was told there was a 9.4 work today at Timonium. Even of that was in fifths instead of tenths (9.8) that is still insanely fast. I think it would definitely be a sales record if not a world record if that information is correct.
    Interesting. Equals the breeze of this horse, and you see how he ended up.

    I readily admit my original post was a bit hot-headed after the second vid I pulled up showed a rider spanking a horse all. the. way. down. the. lane.

    I also readily admit that the whip is used to communicate.

    But there are abuses. I hope they are becoming less frequent.

    As far as having two-year-olds racing compared to these breeze shows, that really isn't a fair comparison. I personally feel that no two-year-old should be racing, period. I also personally feel that the Triple Crown races should be for four-year-olds. Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiight, like that's going to happen.

    Thanks to LaurieB and others who have prompted me to take another look and to stick my hot-head under a cold faucet.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyFox View Post
    I'm not getting your point.

    Yeah, there is a ridiculous emphasis on speed in these sales, but an awful lot of good horses come out of them. And, yes, the riders have them rolling by the time they hit the lane. But, they are racehorses being sold at a race sale.

    If you are concerned about what you may think is excessive use of the whip, let me remind you - these horses go through the ring AFTER the breeze shows. No one is going to excessively whip a horse at one of these sales.

    I do think 2yo in training sales have gotten a little out of hand with the obsession for fast times. But, again, that's a more complex issue than you might think.

    Cloudyandcallie - thanks. That was really pleasant.
    Laurie,
    One thing I never get is the obsession with blistering speeds at the 2yo sales; I mean almost racing fractions.....were I a buyer, I'd be more interested in watching HOW the horse traveled to look for soundness issues down the road.
    I seem to remember someone putting together the stats on 2yo sales times and career longevity/success - don't know if it was for one sale, or for multiple....would be interesting to see if the "slower" babies actually did better long-term. Any thoughts?
    Dee
    Founder of the I LOFF my worrywart TB clique!
    Official member of the "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique
    http://wilddiamondintherough.blogspot.ca/



  17. #17

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    Okay probably a stupid ? But how do they calculate these times?

    It would be interesting to see different jockeys on some of these horses. Some of the first horses (hip 1&2) had great times without one raise of the whip - I am sure it doesn't mean they are faster without the whip but some of the jockey's seem very cool and balanced with the horse and some seem ruff and unbalanced.

    I'd really be interested in seeing examples of some horses that you guys think are showing very good form! Some look just downright awkward running, but I'd like to see examples of who is running like you want to see. Are there any that are slower and show good form? Is good form good speed?



  18. #18
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    The philosophy behind the fast works is that they sell horses. The works sell horses in large part because they make it easy for an agent to extract money from investors and/or buyers by saying "The horse was the fastest. He won the race." even though most people if they thought about it would realize what nonsense that is. It's not just what they do but how they do it that's important and a little sub 10 eggbeater that has to be popped every stride doesn't sell as well as you think anymore. People have been badly burned by these horses.

    That said, the works can give you a glimpse into the extraordinary. One that I can still recall is Officer's preview at Barretts. He went sub :10 in style. Also someone (MarketWatch?) analyzed the OBS February sale for a period of several years to see if there was a correlation between preview times and future performance. As I recall, Mecke was the only SW that emerged out of the :11 and over group and none from the "galloped" group.

    That said, two year old sales are falling out of favor with some segments of the TB industry and certain horseman. The horses often need a break afterwards and many times you are buying damaged goods that have been cleverly hidden by a consignor. Not everyone does it but I've certainly heard that complaint. The other thing trainers will tell you is that many of the sales horses have blown minds. They are babies and the only thing they know is how to flat out run every step of the way. Generally winning TB races aren't run like that so they have to be retaught how to gallop, how to breeze and how to work.

    So two year old sales and running two year olds apart from the sales can be very different things and the preparation for the two events (race and preview) can be very different even if the age of the horse is the same. I've followed the Barretts sales quite closely over the last several years and I have seldom seen a preview horse making a quick and smooth transition into a 2 year old racehorse (as in within 60 days of the sale) unless the horse was a runner before the sale. That was the original purpose of the sales but it seldom works that way in practice.



  19. #19
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    [quote=Happy Feet;3216131]
    Okay probably a stupid ? But how do they calculate these times?
    Not stupid at all. The sales company has a timer and the horses are supposed to break at the pole. In fact, the audience sits up at the stands at least at Barretts where I've attended and watch preview after preview. There is an electronic timer directly in front of us and the time is announced afterwards.

    It would be interesting to see different jockeys on some of these horses. Some of the first horses (hip 1&2) had great times without one raise of the whip - I am sure it doesn't mean they are faster without the whip but some of the jockey's seem very cool and balanced with the horse and some seem ruff and unbalanced.
    These are often QH jockeys who make serious money during preview season and travel from sale to sale. Others are gallop boys/girls with a particular knack for fast. You know how dog handlers can be in demand for the big shows? There are people out there who have carved out a real niche for themselves doing these previews because times are important.

    I'd really be interested in seeing examples of some horses that you guys think are showing very good form! Some look just downright awkward running, but I'd like to see examples of who is running like you want to see. Are there any that are slower and show good form? Is good form good speed?
    It can be. The fast eggbeaters just don't sell as well anymore. You want to see a horse working within himself and reaching out with every stride. IOW you want to see some style.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
    Interesting. Equals the breeze of this horse, and you see how he ended up.
    Point of interest: Hip #2 is The Green Monkey's half-sister by Vindication.



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