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  1. #1
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    Sep. 9, 2004
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    Default More than kissing twins

    Okay, I am bummed. I have had my share of twins over the years and all but one set was reduced to one pregnancy with no problems, but this year hmmm. Mare is preg checked at day 15 from ovulation and she has twins, but they are more than kissing. One is over top of the other kind of like the rings of the Olympics you know? So real close. We give her Ace in hopes to relax her uterus and maybe we can move them but nope no budge. Vet comes out today at day 16 and still no change. We decide to wait it out a bit and see if Mother Nature will help out. She will be checked again Friday. If still the same, we will give her to the following Friday and then decide (want to decide before 100 days and endometrile (sp?) cups form)if we abort then or proceed a little longer, knowing that if I proceed a little longer and she doesn't reduce to one I will have to abort and will lose the year for her.

    What are others experiences with this? How was the outcome? Did you wait and do the vaginal or abdominal needle reduction? Did you just abort at 100 days and start over? Or did you figure the mare can have the year off if they don't reduce to one and therefore abort at the latest possible time? I am so torn and praying that by Friday there will be only one.



  2. #2
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    Default

    At 15 days, they have not fixed, so if you try again a half hour later, you probably could have had them far apart (if your # of days were right)

    The cups form around 32 - 35 days, not 100, so that is when you need to decide to wait and possibly lose the year, or cycle and try again. Touching twins have a pretty good chance of self elimination, but it can take several months. Late in the year, I would wait it out, but early, probably not, depending on how expensive the semen and cycle costs were.



  3. #3
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Default

    I wonder why they are insisting on not moving apart. My understanding was that often if you just wait 15 minutes or so, they will move. Maybe Kathy will chime in? She has a good article re twinning generally on her equine repro website.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Yes, as long as the ovulation date is correct, taking the mare for a 15 minute walk will usually have them far apart. Unfortunately by the next day (day 16) they would likely be fixed.

    Did you track both ovulations? Was it 15 days from the first, or second ovulation?



  5. #5
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    Default

    Actually I meant 30 days, not sure why I said 100...tired I guess. I think it was because my vet said something about at 100 days 80% reduced on their own in a twin study that was done, so I guess that's why I screwed up and said 100 instead of 30. We will be checking her again this Friday and if nothing has changed we will as I said wait another 7 days and check again. This then would be Day 25 and that would be when I need to decide what to do if there still is no change (so would be before 30 days). But yes we are very accurate on our date. We checked her every day by ultrasound following breeding to see when she ovulated so know it was day 15. We did try a half hour later and also tried the Ace which is suppose to help relax the uterus enough to possibly manipulate them. No luck. Today at day 16 vet came out in the morning and there was absolutely no difference. They hadn't changed at all, not a bit. Very weird. I never had this happen before. Oh and we never saw a second ovulation...that was weird too...not expecting twins at all.



  6. #6
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    Jul. 6, 2004
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    Default

    OK, just did this. Here is my story: Leased a mare for the year. Bred her with frozen to a TK stallion (stallion is alive, and semen is easy to get etc). This was a 16 yo maiden mare and my vet's FIRST TIME EVER using frozen. Mare has also had issues in getting preg in the past... (I know, what are the chances? LOL). Breed her with a double ovulation. She is checked on day 17. TWINS - exactly what you are describing (and am 100% positive on the date as she was bred the evening prior to ovulation, and at 6 am the following am - and we verified that she had ovulated). Vet spent a LONG time in her to make sure he was seeing things correctly. Tells me to recheck before day 30. Very long story short - probs with office staff abound and vet actually checks mare at day 31 or 32. Cups have formed, looking at loosing breeding season. Twins still on top of each other. Decision time = abort both and loose breeding season (the only one I have for this mare), wait and see... I do TONS of research and agonize over this. Get the owner of the mare involved (she is a vet)... we are all on board to see what is going on on day 60. (theory being season is lost anyway). Majority of the twins that are in the same horn and are in this scenerio will loose one or both naturally. Day 61 or 62 check mare. Still twins, but they have seperated. On ultrasound, the colt is dying (very weak heartbeat little movement etc) and filly is thriving (strong heartbeat, good movement). Still agonize over it all. I also put her on a "starvation diet" - have no idea if this worked or not, but from the 30 day for 2, almost 3 weeks, the mare got next to nothing to eat (one flake of grain and handfull of grain twice a day) from 3 weeks until the 60 day, she got basically a half day's wroth of grain/hay split into two portions. THIS SUCKED FOR ALL CONCERNED!!! but something was working....

    Day 90 ultarsound again (inside mare for 15 mins). Absolutly zero signs of a twin. Could not be 100% sure - would need an abdominal ultrasound, or something can't remember name now that we would have to do at vet clinic (UF) which is 5 hours away.

    On day 343, Ruby was born to Dove with just her little lonesome inside the mare.

    Was it worth it? yes. I kept thinking of that day on day 90 when my vet, the owner, my parents, and I AGONIZED over the decision for over an hour on aborting or not and how close we came to aborting her.

    Would we do it again? NOPE. The last two months of Dove's preg were HELL for me. I was terrified that she would have twins and I would loose one, both, them and the mare... I do not want to live through that again. My vet was on standby to come to the farm when she went into labor. Turned out that it was so quick/easy and painless that he dind't need to come out, but he was putting his shoes on when I told him that the one filly was out. He was also at my house at 6 am the next day to see her LOL. She is very tiny - not sure if that is from the twining, the starvation diet, or just her, but she is healthy, active, IgGs were excellent 12 hours post foaling (WELL over 400) and she is thriving now over a month later - just very little.
    Emerald Acres standing the ATA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!



  7. #7
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    Jan. 29, 2000
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    Brownsburg, VA
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    Default

    Yeah, I've got some experience with this. Mare twinned. We tried 4 times in three days between 14 and 17 to reduce. those are just the separate farm calls. Vet would have a cup of coffee and try at least 2x each visit to reduce. they never separated.

    It was late in the season. I'd already had to abort one pregnancy because the mare was bred with 7 straws of the correct stallion, and one straw of a pacing standardbred (lesson: read the straws BEFORE you put the semen in...because you can't take them out once they are in). We decided to wait. Statistically, they have a > 80% chance of reducing on their own before day 85.

    I rolled the dice and I lost. That mare wanted both. We aborted her at day 90. the vet wanted me to send the mare to Blue Ridge, as Dr. David (no longer there) had had great success at 5 months in terminating one twin with a trans-vaginal injection into the heart of one twin. I opted not to, as it increases the risk of complications during delivery. This mare grows them VERY big, and I didn't want the foal fighting for a good position over a mummified foal.

    To me, it's still early. I would lyse and try again.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  8. #8
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Paris, Kentucky
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    Default

    We had the same issue several years ago. Of course, it was the 1st year that I bought the mare............from someone who bred her for an entire year and was unable to get a pregnancy. I was convinced that if we aborted, that we would never get her in foal again. They would not separate, no matter what my vet tried. We even left her with the repro clinic soo that they could try multiple times per day. No luck. We opted to abort and try again. We cycled her back in and she caught again the very next breeding and Oakstable has a very nice 2 year old DeLaurentis filly because of my decision. Just hope that it is one that I never have to make again!
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
    LIKE us on Facebook!



  9. #9
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    Nov. 28, 2003
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    Default

    If you were following her that closely, and you are absolutely certain there was not a second ovulation, are you sure that you aren't seeing a cyst and a pregnancy? Cysts can form quickly, and even if she didn't have one prior to breeding, she could have developed one. You sure don't want to abort in that case, as you could be dealing with just one pregnancy. You should be able to tell in a few days, as a pregnancy will grow quickly and the cyst won't.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  10. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
    If you were following her that closely, and you are absolutely certain there was not a second ovulation, are you sure that you aren't seeing a cyst and a pregnancy? Cysts can form quickly, and even if she didn't have one prior to breeding, she could have developed one. You sure don't want to abort in that case, as you could be dealing with just one pregnancy. You should be able to tell in a few days, as a pregnancy will grow quickly and the cyst won't.
    Good point Hillside!
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
    LIKE us on Facebook!



  11. #11
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    Apr. 18, 2000
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    ~~~Virginia Horse Country~~~
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    Default

    Now the question, if she has a cyst or cysts, shouldn't she have been put on Regumate?
    http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill



  12. #12
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    Sep. 9, 2004
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    Default

    Hmm, didn't think about cysts since she has not had any, but my vet did question if she might have had one. I said no, because at her previous ultrasound and all others before there were none, but maybe this is something new?



  13. #13
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    Dec. 25, 2002
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    Georgia
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    Default

    Two years ago I had a mare with twins that were on top of each other. The vet came out several times to try to pinch - but no luck. We finally decided to take her to the University for a surgical reduction. It was an ultrasound guided vaginal injection of "something" into the heart of one of the twins. It was completely successful and I've got a wonderful yearling colt from that pregnancy.



  14. #14
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    Nov. 15, 2004
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post

    The cups form around 32 - 35 days, not 100, so that is when you need to decide to wait and possibly lose the year, or cycle and try again.
    I had a mare checked in foal, ultrasounded at day 45, she obviously absorbed and came right back in heat. She was being pasture bred off the farm. She's in foal but the date would make her bring bred again about 2-3 weeks after she was checked in foal. I also had a mare that the vet couldn't make it out and came out at day 32, TWINS. She went home and gave me choices of letting her go or trying to lutalyse and bring her back in. I called day 34 and begged her to try to pinch one. She did on day 35, we didn't put her on regumate as the vet didn't want to keep the "smushed" twin. She came out two more times and ultrasounded ONE BABY. Mare will be at 340 days June 2nd and looks fabulous.
    Maria Hayes-Frosty Oak Stables
    Home to All Eyez On Me, 1998 16.2 Cleveland Bay Sporthorse Stallion
    & FrostyOak Hampton 2008 Pure Cleveland Bay Colt
    www.frostyoaks.com



  15. #15
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    Default

    I had a vet that was convinced my mare was twinning. She spent a LONG time looking to make sure what she was seeing. I kept telling her that she brought up ONE follicle, and ovulated ONE follicle. She said, "so you don't want me to pinch?"" I said, absolutely not. ONE ovulation. Rechecked 10 days later, and we had one pregnancy.



  16. #16
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    Default

    I wish I could draw here what I saw on the ultrasound. You could see the membrane in the middle of the two circles. Literally looked as if you put a circle as close as possible on a circle without totally covering up the circle...yea I know it sounds crazy. Again wish I could draw it here.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by talloaks View Post
    Now the question, if she has a cyst or cysts, shouldn't she have been put on Regumate?
    Nope. Many, many mares have multiple cysts and carry foals just fine without Regumate. Regumate really isn't a "treatment" or even indicated for cysts.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  18. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ljshorses View Post
    I wish I could draw here what I saw on the ultrasound. You could see the membrane in the middle of the two circles. Literally looked as if you put a circle as close as possible on a circle without totally covering up the circle...yea I know it sounds crazy. Again wish I could draw it here.

    I know what you are talking about.. that is the way my twins looked. They are almost on top of each other - it IS beyond just touching. Doesn't happen often from what I read and when I did the research it was anywhere from 60% - 80% (depending on study) that these type of twins (and ONLY these types of twins) will result in a live birth of ONE foal. The other 20 - 40% either the mare aborts one or two foals prior to "due date" or a very small % will give birth to twins (living or not). It is a risk that the mare will not absorb one on her own - but the chances are far greater with this type of twinning that she will have just one foal at the end of the year than she will have twins. This weekend I will see if I can dig up all the research I found. The mare's owner even talked to a repro vet at Rood/Riddle and was told the same thing.

    Now I KNEW this mare had double follicules - we just didn't think they would both result in twins. One was close to 50 and the other was at barely 20... go figure.
    Emerald Acres standing the ATA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!



  19. #19
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    Dec. 21, 2005
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    Default

    I know nothing about twinning in horses but find this discussion very interesting. I was wondering, in the case where the decision to pinch one is made how does the vet decide which one to pinch? Does one usually look healthier then the other?



  20. #20
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    Mar. 11, 1999
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    Clayton, CA USA
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    My mare last year twinned, with the embryos on top of each other. Over the course of three days, we tried to reduce the twins, but they stayed that way. I waited until 30 days and we checked again, but they were still together. At that point, the choice was to abort or wait and hope. It was late, so I didn't abort. At 90 days, they were still there, still alive and well, so I took her to UC Davis for trans abdominal reduction. It was unsuccessful; they were never able to get a safe, clear shot at a twin, and I tried on two separate occasions. So, at just over 100 days I aborted her. It was very sad, and if I had to do it all over again, I would abort at 30 days.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



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