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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 2, 2005
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    1,635

    Default Really bad bolt in scarey place.

    I really should know better than to do what I did. The 6 yr old arab was starting to go nice on trails in the fall, and then had 4 months off due to my leg pain. I rode him twice in RP last week and today tried to take him out on trail, no lunging or RP first. We weren't out more than 25 yards when his body language told me he wasn't happy. I tried to push the issue and he spun and bolted fast on the trail in the opposite direction, up a hill, down a steep hill next to a deep rocky ravine, jumped a mud puddle, I lost a stirrup and bailed out, and he ran on. I wasn't hurt and had my helmet and safety vest on. He eventually realized he was alone and came trotting back to me.
    It was really scarey, I had visions of him running off the trail into the ravine. I had no brakes, no steering, and then no stirrup. He ignored pulling on one rein, ignored loose reins, voice commands, he was in the zone.
    On the way back, we went back to the bolt spot and I lunged him there a while, then I led him further up the trail with more lunging in wide spots. I rode him back 1/4 mile, then he didn't like something way ahead on the trail, so I got off and walked him the last 1/4 mile.
    I guess I need to get him out there every few days all year long even if its just leading him for a walk. And get his kinks out in the RP first. Back to kindergarden for Seabiscuit.
    ********
    There is no snooze button on a cat that wants breakfast.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2006
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    1,088

    Default

    glad you're ok, i had a great trail horse, really, but she had to be ridden out on the trail regularly or she was a maniac, if she missed a couple of weeks she didn't want to go out and we'd spend a while having fits but when she was going out 4-5 times a week consistantly you couldn't ride a better horse, for her it was all about repetition and consistency, someone had commented on how well i trained her and i said i use the bore them into submission training methods, some horses need to get into a routine again before they can think straight



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2008
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    Ontario, Canada
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    I would put a big western bit in him with a good curb chain done up fairly tight and when he ran I would put everything I had into it. Use the back and legs and try turning him inside out. I have done this to run aways a number of times and after 2 hard stops, ones that I hope hurt I never had a problem again. Ride with soft hands and after a few lessons drop the big bit but fall back to a mild western and again a curb chain until you and the horse gain confidence.
    Big bit, soft hands works better then small bit and hard hands.
    YOu were lucky, bailing off can break something.
    Last edited by Shadow14; May. 1, 2008 at 11:09 AM.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
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    The Land of the Frozen
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    Default

    Wet saddle pads, ground training, and work on trust. Teach him to spook in place. He sounds a bit spoiled, or else terrified of his own shadow, and in desperate need of TONS of work. Not just putzy putz hand walking. If you have to ride another horse, and pony him, do it, but work his bunns off.

    I've had more than one trainer and life-time horseman tell me that the #1 problem with horses is lack of work and I'm really starting to believe it.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2007
    Location
    Harrisburg PA
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    397

    Default

    Hubby's MFT has had the last two weeks off due to vehicle issues. When I went to check on the boys, I board. OMG Hero was the biggest butt. If he is allowed to have down time he forgets his manners and needs a refresher course. When kept in a regular training program he is easy to deal with. He is turned out 24/7 so it is not like he is not getting out. My QH Skip can sit for months and come out of the pasture with his head on straight.

    Sounds like your horse may need to get on a program.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2005
    Location
    Poulsbo, WA
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    1,618

    Default

    Oh, so sorry about the bad incident. I do not need to preach anything because the experience you had and what you did would be exactly what I'd be doing with my Arab mare. In fact, I'm going to stay in the outdoor arena with my two little girls (Arab and unbroken to ride Clydesdale) until I feel very secured that they'd not be so silly. We took a very LONG hiatus this winter - ice everywhere. Like Auventura Two, I'd need to make sure that their pads get wet before the end of the session. It is reassuring to hear that you are doing what I am doing....(me clucking clucking) So sorry to hear about your incident.

    Where did you get your safety vest? My trainer trained a Mustang for the Challenge...her Mustang got so excited that he went bronco with her falling off to break NINE of her back ribs and tore two ligaments on her right knee. I need to get a safety vest. Would that be the same as those eventers wear?
    Will get a dream horse!
    More riding, swimming, and rowing, less posting



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
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    North East, MD
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    Default

    Glad you are okay! Bolting is very scary. My first pony was a bolter, and she'd bolt just about every time on the trail. I finally got good at regaining control on the first stride or two. If I missed the window of opportunity, she was off, and it was either bail or have her running home with me along a fast road. If I bailed, she usually stopped. If I stuck with her but didn't get control, she kept running. She was dishonest and would try to unseat me, whether in the arena or on the trail. My parents didn't realize this was an unsafe mount for a 12-year old. She taught me to keep my butt in the saddle!

    I'm not sure a curb is the best bit for this. It really depends on whether he's a chin tucker or runs with his head high. It might help with a high-headed runner, but with a chin tucker, you won't be able to get him off his forehand and stopped.

    My current horse is off the track, and when he decides to run, he leans on the bit. If I use both reins, he tucks his chin and runs even faster. I have to yank (yes, yank) one rein at a time to get his attention and get his head up. This requires sitting back in the saddle (actually, standing back in the saddle, since that is the force I have to use to brace my body and pull the reins). Making him lift his head gets him off his forehand so he can slow down. I'd be scared to try to turn him at the speed he goes. My guy was a professional runner, so he's not at all upset in this situation. He's never bolted out of fear, thank goodness. It could be a whole different ball game if he were running in fright.

    I took a clinic with a lady who says that horses have to be on their forehands to keep galloping, and that getting them off their forehands is what allows them to stop. It sounds weird, but if I replay my bolting experiences, I think she might be right. Train yourself to get the horse off his forehand (take lessons if necessary) and you will have more control of his speed. Besides, he'll get a better topline, too. Arabians seem to be good at going on their forehand with their heads high, so it would help to have an instructor who is familiar with Arabians and their many talents.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2000
    Location
    Woodville, Virginia
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    377

    Default

    [QUOTE=Shadow14;3180551]I would put a big western bit in him with a good curb chain done up fairly tight and when he ran I would put everything I had into it...QUOTE]

    Is this a joke?
    Jennifer Thomas Alcott
    Woodville, Virginia
    http://www.theshingleshanty.com



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    [QUOTE=Jennifer Alcott;3181918]
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow14 View Post
    I would put a big western bit in him with a good curb chain done up fairly tight and when he ran I would put everything I had into it...QUOTE]

    Is this a joke?
    No this is not joke. I am a guy that can take almost any bad mannered horse out and make him behave. When all else fails get me.
    I love training and am gentle about it until the time comes not to be gentle, like a run away and then I will do all I can to hurt the horse and set him on his butt. I have never had a run away that I couldn't break within two runs. They will become good stoppers after 2 tries.
    My horses set standard for manners and training whatever barn they are in.
    Again no Joke. Bailing off a run away is not an option, not one that I would ever choose. You can get killed doing that. Why is carrying a big bit and tight curb such a bad thing, is getting killed better???
    The horse is 10 times strong then you, you need all the help you can get and you want to get his attention quickly.
    Again bit heavy, use light hands until the time comes then throw everything you got into it and hope you can hurt him good. Then go back to being gentle and the horse will be better for it.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
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    8,994

    Default

    Ouch - Glad you're okay from the bail off. Probably nothing is more frightening than a bolter.

    Don't have much advice for you, but my mare acts dopey when given any substantial time off. Not to the extent of bolting, but some just need consistent work. Although it sounds like something else set your guy off.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 29, 2008
    Posts
    503

    Default

    I was just reading about a bit that might be a help to you. Now as a disclaimer, I will say that I never used this bit, BUT it sounds like it might help. It was designed to control horses that throw their heads up and charge into the wild blue yonder.
    It is a T.E.A.M. training bit, a kind of a curb bit with a copper roller mouth. It has loose shanks, not too long, and uses 4 reins. An English caveson should be used with it, and the chin chain should be adjusted similar to that of a Pelham or double bridle.

    As I said, I haven't used/needed it, but it looks like it would be effective without putting something really nasty in your horse's mouth.

    How about it out there? Anybody used a properly adjusted T.E.A.M. training bit? What results did you get?



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
    Location
    North East, MD
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    Default

    I've seen the bit and have something similar without the roller. I figured that I'd have the curb if I wanted but could otherwise use the snaffle rein. I really don't like having to deal with two sets of reins. I know dressage riders do it all the time, but I like to have less in my hands out on the trail. My horse goes fine in a curb. Again, he's a chin tucker, though, so the curb probably won't help that much. At some point, one loses the leverage of the curb.

    I like that snaffles (especially French links) can work on one corner of the mouth at a time. So when alternating reins as I do during a bolt, I can affect one side of the bit at a time and hopefully get his attention back. I have to be much harder on his mouth than I like during a bolt, but it's better than then ending up in a wreck!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2004
    Location
    NY
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    1,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow14 View Post
    I love training and am gentle about it until the time comes not to be gentle, like a run away and then I will do all I can to hurt the horse and set him on his butt. I have never had a run away that I couldn't break within two runs. They will become good stoppers after 2 tries.
    Ugh, this is not training this is abuse.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2008
    Posts
    961

    Default

    [QUOTE=Shadow14;3181985]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Alcott View Post

    No this is not joke. I am a guy that can take almost any bad mannered horse out and make him behave. When all else fails get me.
    I love training and am gentle about it until the time comes not to be gentle, like a run away and then I will do all I can to hurt the horse and set him on his butt. I have never had a run away that I couldn't break within two runs. They will become good stoppers after 2 tries.
    My horses set standard for manners and training whatever barn they are in.
    Again no Joke. Bailing off a run away is not an option, not one that I would ever choose. You can get killed doing that. Why is carrying a big bit and tight curb such a bad thing, is getting killed better???
    The horse is 10 times strong then you, you need all the help you can get and you want to get his attention quickly.
    Again bit heavy, use light hands until the time comes then throw everything you got into it and hope you can hurt him good. Then go back to being gentle and the horse will be better for it.
    Shadow 14, your idea of training is why my QH gelding is now with me, someone who was taught by a man who gentled his horses instead of using brute force. I was taught how to get a horses attention, how to keep it, and make them engage their body, to listen to their rider and think, and to have a more pleasurable ride. Using brute force only shows you can break a horse, when in reality, a good rider gets into the horses mind, figures out why and what triggers that horse then uses it to teach them to do the right thing.

    A horse should never fear their rider or expect you to set them on their butt and turn them inside out by hauling back on the reins. Work and consistency and patience along with refresher courses in ground manners, ground work and a lot of time in the saddle is better in the long run. I have seen people with your mind set ruin a decent to good horse. A horse isn't a being to be broken but to form a partnership with their rider.

    A lack of responsiveness to the bit pressure is often the sign of insufficient training or improper training. Some things to do is vary the routine by riding away from the barn after warming him up in the round pen or lunging for a few minutes till you see the horse beginning to relax and do what you ask of him. Dismount in different places every day, tie your horse to a tree in your yard or walk him by the barn, vary your routine. Make him use his mind and pay attention to you. Consistent, patient and regular sessions with him should be what your doing so you can get him to begin to relax and he will soon realize that leaving the barn doesn't have to be filled with those invisible trolls or spooky and scary things lurking in the shadows.

    If you can, have a buddy ride with you on a horse who is trail safe and easy going and laid back, one that nothing seems to spook or upset to ride along with you. Often times a young horse or spooky horse will feed off the more easy going personality of the horse with him and begin to settle down, making the ride more enjoyable.

    I think your on the right track of making him work when he gets spooky or upset on the trail, let him know that the behavior he is exhibiting is unacceptable and make him do something he doesn't like. If he acts good and is more relaxed, praise him and tell him he is a good boy.

    Good luck.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 2, 2005
    Posts
    1,635

    Default Update

    Today, I put up a row of branches and logs next to the ravine, sort of a visual barrier. Then I lunged him, then, since I didn't have time to ride, took him out on the lead line with the stiff rope training halter to see the trail again. He could have cared less, nothing bothered him. Then I went to Maryland Saddlery, talked to the owner, who suggested something with a curb chain, either a kimberwick, or a Myler bit. She felt the french link I used put pressure on a spot on the tongue, with mild pressure on the bars, too mild a bit. Since the kimberwick wouldn' t give me any lateral movement, and I have problems with him taking the right lead, and sometimes dropping a shoulder, I got the Myler, level 1 bit on loan for a week. I thought that was really nice. The Myler has effect on the poll, as well as working with the curb chain, or can be used as a snaffle without the chain.
    AT, I completely agree with with wet blankets. In the fall I rode 5 days a week and saw a big difference. Our winters are really icey however. I just made my RP bigger to 80ft diameter, so that will help.
    Yes, he needs a daily routine, arabs need to be kept busy. Our other horses here are an equally green 7 yr old, my 13yr old rescue who's supposed to be bombproof, although I haven't even ridden him yet so who really knows (he will get the kimberwick although he has no lateral movement at all, got to work on that later), and a mostly lame 18 yr old, who just may have to go out for a quiet babysitting ride.
    I also had a sort of running martingale on him, that Al Marah uses for training, I hadn't used it much and I really think it interfered in my trying to stop him. It's now going to the consignment store.
    My game plan is try the new bit in the RP, lots of bending and serps in the field, circling, etc., and find some quiet horse to go out with him. Lots of work in July and August when its really hot, he'll regret that bolting then (just kidding).

    The vest is Tipperary's eventing vest. This is my third fall in it, it's really helped on landing. I was so very spoiled by my mare of 25 years that I raised since birth. I broke her my self, never came off, she never bolted, and she was half Crabbet arab and half common sense QH. I miss her more than ever, I'm way too old for all these new babies.
    ********
    There is no snooze button on a cat that wants breakfast.



  16. #16
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    Dec. 9, 2005
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    North East, MD
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    It sounds like you've got a plan in place. Hopefully, no more bolts that you have to bail from! Let us know how it goes. I'll be getting the little Arab mare (Roxy) going soon, and she looks like she might be spooker. It's a long time since I've had to ride out a spook and spin. I've been spoiled by riding OTTB's who can't turn so fast!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
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    MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow14 View Post
    I am a guy that can take almost any bad mannered horse out and make him behave. When all else fails get me.
    Thanks, I'll pass.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar. 29, 2006
    Location
    Maryland
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    Bank Of Dad

    Have you taught your horse the One Rein Stop? do you practice it? A good idea is to start a ride off with a few practice ORSs, at the walk and trot in the first early part of your ride, that way it's fresh in the horse's mind. we just had a long thread about this. I have a young Arab that does the occasional bolt, not too often now because I've taught that stop and I use it. He's figuring out that a bolt gets him nowhere fast and isn't worth the bother. But you must teach it with a displacement of the hindquarter and practice it. That way the horse will turn his head and immediately slow and rebalance his body because they have been conditioned to it. I've picked up a habit from a friend which is to start each ride on this horse with neck flexes to each side, right after getting on. Again, it's to get the idea of giving to the bit, to the side, fresh in the horses mind, before starting off down the trail. I almost always ride alone, have no arena so go straight onto the trails brisk conditioning rides and at 55 I don't bounce so well anymore and have no patience for foolishness. I have found the flexing and ORS to be great tools, no heavy harsh bits needed. By the way, most falls from horses when they bolt is basicly because the rider locks up and basicly causes themselve to pitch off the horse. I do believe that riders need to be comfortable at all speeds on a horse so that they don't panic and stiffin when a horse does speed up. Do practice speed work, on good footing of course and I don't mean just on up hills! I hate watching riders training their horses to dash ip hills because it's the only place that the rider is mentally comfortable at a gallop. Don't use that mental crutch.


    Bonnie



  19. #19
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    Mar. 18, 2008
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishcas View Post
    Ugh, this is not training this is abuse.
    Last summer I was with my grand son at the barn. A lady with her so call coach were getting ready to do some jumping. I was just leaving and they were just heading out to the ring.
    I said to both of them that they were in over their head. I was told so politely were to go that I was actually looking forward to the journey.
    Anyway I asked my grandson if he wanted to hang around and watch a wreck.
    Sure enough within 5 minutes the lady was dumped hard but she got back up, back on the horse and went another round.
    This time she didn't get up, I took the horse into the barn, unsaddled it and put the horse back in the field.
    I haven't seen the horse touched again since then.

    4th commandment.
    Don't be angry with me for long. Don't lock me up as punishment. You have your work, your entertainment and your friends. I have only you...

    Which is more cruel?? Me riding the horse for a short session or the horse being ignored for 6 plus months???

    Not a horse in the barn will fail to come to me when I walk into any field. Not a one. Who is the cruel one here???



  20. #20
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    Mar. 18, 2008
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Thanks, I'll pass.
    Lady has an experience eventer that went sour. Every time she tried riding she ended up leading the horse back home. Couldn't get 100 yards from the barn before the fight came. In despiration she talked to the stable owner who assured her I had gentle hands and she turned the horse over to me. I told her to throw her saddle on my guy and follow along.
    Sure enough within 200 yards the fight came, the horse lost that round in under 10 seconds, next fight another 100 yards further on, horse lost that one too just as quick. We went for another hour, her loping along beside me , watching my hands. She realized that I didn't touch the horse until the fight started and then it was over and we were back to leaving the horse alone.
    She had a great ride, thanked me so much for helping with her barn sour horse and showing her how to overcome.
    No there is no need for being rough until the right time and then it is you against this monster, you must overcome if you want to go back to being gentle.
    I have done this countless times for people, overcome a problem but afterwards you go back to the gentle softspoken attitude until the time comes to not be nice.
    Remember a horse is 1200 pounds of solid muscle and we are nothing compared to them so we have to use our brain and overcome but at the same time leave the horse with the knowledge that he can not behave like that.
    Sometimes you have got to be rough to be gentle. What is that old say when you spank a child?? " This is going to hurt me more then in it is going to hurt you""?
    I shoe alot of these horses too and suprisingly they are better for me then for their owners in cross tie manners and handling.
    Wonder why???

    I carried a lady out of a field with a shattered leg once but that is another story.



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