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  1. #1
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    Question Thanks for all input!

    A big thanks to all who gave input without attacks, insults, or offense. Unfortunately you good folks were the minority. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
    Last edited by sublimequine; Mar. 27, 2008 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Too many "Well bless your hearts" to hand out, too little time!
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  2. #2
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    I'm with you. I refuse to put a flash or crank on my horse, and the plain noseband I use is so loose it's essentially useless. Dressage is about willing harmony between horse and rider. There's nothing willing and harmonious about stifling your horse's ability to object. If my horse is trying to evade the bit, the problem is ME, not HIM.

    I'd love to see what those top horses did if they were allowed to show their resistance. It would certainly be amusing to see some dressage queens (and kings) dethroned!



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by amastrike View Post
    I'm with you. I refuse to put a flash or crank on my horse, and the plain noseband I use is so loose it's essentially useless. Dressage is about willing harmony between horse and rider. There's nothing willing and harmonious about stifling your horse's ability to object. If my horse is trying to evade the bit, the problem is ME, not HIM.

    I'd love to see what those top horses did if they were allowed to show their resistance. It would certainly be amusing to see some dressage queens (and kings) dethroned!
    Good to know I'm not the only one who feels like this! I'm also the same, either my mare goes in a plain noseband that is extremely loose, or no noseband at all.
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  4. #4
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    I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about
    I never thought of it that way.. but you're right!
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about
    Yep, pretty much. That's why I got out of it. There are a few horses and riders I really admire but for the most part I don't watch it. I used to get Dressage Today but found that the issues would go in the trash after a quick scim. I guess that was my clue that my heart wasn't in it anymore. I use dressage principles with my horses and love the concept of the training scale, but that's as far as it goes.

    I'm with you sublime, but watch out, the vultures shall now swoop in and tear our carcasses assunder.

    I bet if they got rid of all the cranking that goes on in the top levels, we'd see a lot more run aways. But that's just my personal theory of course.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Yep, pretty much. That's why I got out of it. There are a few horses and riders I really admire but for the most part I don't watch it. I used to get Dressage Today but found that the issues would go in the trash after a quick scim. I guess that was my clue that my heart wasn't in it anymore. I use dressage principles with my horses and love the concept of the training scale, but that's as far as it goes.

    I'm with you sublime, but watch out, the vultures shall now swoop in and tear our carcasses assunder.

    I bet if they got rid of all the cranking that goes on in the top levels, we'd see a lot more run aways. But that's just my personal theory of course.
    I know, I'm kind of waiting for the hardcore folks to come in and rip me to shreds for asking... hopefully not.
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  8. #8
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    You can borrow one of my flame suits . The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by amastrike View Post
    You can borrow one of my flame suits . The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...
    I kind of wondered about that as well. I've never ridden in a flash, and occasionally I do ride with a bit (big hackamore fan), and I've never had problems with instability with the bit...
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  10. #10
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    I guess if your hands move constantly (be it intentional or not), the bit is going to do a lot of moving. Maybe the flash is to disguise bad hands? (Which is not to say that my hands are amazing, of course.)



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by amastrike View Post
    I guess if your hands move constantly (be it intentional or not), the bit is going to do a lot of moving. Maybe the flash is to disguise bad hands? (Which is not to say that my hands are amazing, of course.)
    But you'd think in Dressage, especially in levels where a flash is required, bad hands would NEVER be present.. right?
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  12. #12
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    Do a search on this forum. This issue has been beaten to death.

    You can also educate yourself by reading the classical dressage texts. Or if you don't want to read, look at the pictures in any book about the Spanish Riding School. All of the young horses in training wear a dropped noseband until they go into the double bridle.

    So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  13. #13
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    I'm sure they are infinitely more knowledgeable than I am... but it doesn't make them infallible.



  14. #14
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    I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.
    Treat Jockey for Spellbound and Smidgeon



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    Do a search on this forum. This issue has been beaten to death.

    You can also educate yourself by reading the classical dressage texts. Or if you don't want to read, look at the pictures in any book about the Spanish Riding School. All of the young horses in training wear a dropped noseband until they go into the double bridle.

    So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.
    You still didn't answer WHY it is used. And I never said I knew more about training than them. In the first like 2 sentences I said I was no expert. That's why I came here, to ask folks who have a better idea on the subject.

    I also already said the post was not meant to incite anything. If you're going to try and be nasty, please don't even bother. I don't want this to turn into a flamefest.
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
    I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.
    So you think it's maybe more just 'tradition' than anything else?
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by amastrike View Post
    You can borrow one of my flame suits . The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...
    She has been replaced by Arthur Kottas, whose column I enjoy



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sublimequine View Post
    You still didn't answer WHY it is used. And I never said I knew more about training than them. In the first like 2 sentences I said I was no expert. That's why I came here, to ask folks who have a better idea on the subject.

    I also already said the post was not meant to incite anything. If you're going to try and be nasty, please don't even bother. I don't want this to turn into a flamefest.

    As I said, you can do a search.

    The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit. All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them. It is the trainer's job to prevent these evasions from becoming a habitual response. Once the evasion becomes a habit, it is almost impossible to eliminate. So some of the cranked shut nosebands that you see come from riders trying to correct a bad habit that came about because the horse was improperly trained. Sometimes of course, it is also used to try to cover up bad riding. In neither case is it successful as you have noticed.

    Lisa Wilcox who was trained by an SRS instructor says she uses the flash to help keep the bit steady in the young horse's mouth so that there will be less movement and less bouncing around on the bars of the mouth. I am sure that is also one of the reasons if not the reason that the SRS uses them.

    For more info--there have been numerous threads on exactly this same subject. Do a search.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
    I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.
    It's sad that people would actually do that.. It's fun to be involved with your horse and make decisions and LEARN. Flash/cranks are standard equipment for dressage... I bought my dressage bridle in pieces so I could get what I wanted (#1. NO flash/crank).



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.
    Is a dropped noseband equivalent to a crank+flash? I'd think not.



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