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  1. #1
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    Jan. 30, 2008
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    Default How to teach ones?

    Hi, My daughter is showing at PSG and I-1, and she is trying to teach (with her instructor of course) ones to her horse. I also ride, but not as well as she does! LOL

    She is having an issue where she can get her gelding to change and then change again (we call it a flip flop) but getting a third change is hard. Any suggestions on how to teach the horse to do the third, fourth fifth etc flip?

    The trainer has her going down the long side and then having her change, and then in mid change ask for the other lead, but when she tries to ask for the third lead, it gets discombobulated.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks!



  2. #2
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    Sep. 18, 2005
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    IMHO, this is not something that a rider without prior experience can teach a horse without prior experience. At least one of the two has to have a clear sense of how to perform this movement for the other to be able to learn. My suggestion would be to invest in training rides to have the ones taught to your horse by a professional. After the ones are pretty reliable, then your duaghter can learn how to ride them. IME, that would be the best way to not confuse the horse and fry him out. If the aids are not consistent and the rider does not have the experience to reinforce, rebalance, etc. at exactly the right time you can create probelms. Better to teach it correctly from the start than to cause a mess that you have to un-train and re-train. Worth the investment in the training for sure.



  3. #3
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    Mar. 25, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly in NJ View Post
    IMHO, this is not something that a rider without prior experience can teach a horse without prior experience. At least one of the two has to have a clear sense of how to perform this movement for the other to be able to learn. My suggestion would be to invest in training rides to have the ones taught to your horse by a professional. After the ones are pretty reliable, then your daughter can learn how to ride them. IME, that would be the best way to not confuse the horse and fry him out. If the aids are not consistent and the rider does not have the experience to reinforce, re balance, etc. at exactly the right time you can create problems. Better to teach it correctly from the start than to cause a mess that you have to un-train and re-train. Worth the investment in the training for sure.
    Couldn't agree more. The rhythm needed to do clean and consistent ones requires a sense of that rhythm in the rider.It takes time and patience for both horse and rider.



  4. #4
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    Jan. 4, 2000
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    I think one's are the point where most people would tell you that you have to practice them on a trained horse before teaching your own horse. But this girl is already getting a pair of changes so the situation is a little different.

    I don't really think riding a confirmed horse that already does ones actually helps that much, especially if they're easy to get to do it. The easier they are to get to do it, the less they help with the process. With a really schooled horse, you don't actually get to get 'a sense of the rhythm' at all, you just swing your legs like mad and horse thinks, 'oh, time to do one's'. You don't have to be that precise at all, you have to be much more prescise to teach it than to ride it on a schooled horse. My own experience was that doing them on a trained horse had NOTHING to do with teaching my own horse. AT ALL. It was just too easy. Do the exact same thing on the untrained horse, nothing at all happens.

    As long as the rider is doing well getting 4's, 3's and 2's, and has ridden the ones a time or two on another horse, I don't think going round and round practicing them on an easy horse does a doggone thing, though a time or two might give the rider more a sense of confidence.

    Some people never do them on another horse before teaching their own. One gal told me she did them the first time on her home trained horse with a magazine in one hand and the reins in the other, LOL. I don't really think THAT'S true but anyhow.

    The other problem is, of course every horse is slighyl different, needing the aid at a very slightly different time. Don't believe me? Watch videos of top competitors in slow motion. Each horse actually has a slightly different timing. Some you ask at exactly the same point as the other tempe changes, some not. That's the other reason it helps more to get on one's own horse once one has the basic idea.

    The bottom line is that you either trust your trainer or you don't. It doesn't sound like she's doing a bad job.

    What you describe happening is pretty much how it usually goes. It isn't unusual for it to take a while, either for the horse, the rider or both. Even for a professional riding the horse themselves. This tack-tack thing doing two changes is the way most people start it.

    My own feeling is that the key isn't any special trick or any one exercise, just the quality of the canter and the response to the aids - to get the horse very straight and in general responding promptly to the aids. Sometimes going back and doing quick changes and walk canter transitions will speed up the hind legs. The other training going on at the same time tends to complement it, making the hind legs faster and stronger, such as half steps and other collection work.

    A good professional can judge if the rider is capable enough and the horse responsive yet calm enough. Some are, some aren't. It would really upset some people, others do quite well.

    Of course the other thing is that some horses never get so they can do one's. That does happen. But the training process allow for a lot of time before it will be done in competition, the horse is only PSG, right? He won't have to do them in competition for several YEARS.

    But if the rider is willing she will learn a heck of a lot more trying it herself, even if eventually the trainer has to step in and ride the horse some, that's not a bad thing either. Even if there are some difficulties or it takes some time, the rider will learn more and be more able to understand and be more a partner in training her own horses, than a consumer.
    Last edited by slc2; Feb. 10, 2008 at 09:17 AM.



  5. #5
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    Mar. 4, 2007
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    SW MI
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    Ones CAN be taught by someone who has never done them to a horse that has never done them. I did with my Trak gelding. We started where your daughter is, with the two changes and then had trouble with the third. Usually this happens because the horse gets crooked. You can get the first couple, but each time the horse gets more crooked until he can't do the next one. If her instructor has done ones and has taught other riders to do ones, just keep on going the direction she is going. The ones are way more difficult to do than twos because you have no time to see that they have gotten the lead change before you have to ask for the next one. It will take some time, but it can be done.
    Judy Gargano



  6. #6
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    Sep. 18, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    With a really schooled horse, you don't actually get to get 'a sense of the rhythm' at all, you just swing your legs like mad and horse thinks, 'oh, time to do one's'. You don't have to be that precise at all, you have to be much more prescise to teach it than to ride it on a schooled horse.
    I beg to differ. Especially if you have a really good and really sensitive schoolmaster. If someone was to get on my horse and swing thier legs like mad, he'd be thinking "Time to get this a** off my back", not "Gee, I'll do a line of 15 perfect ones".

    I do agree that teaching it does require more precision. That is why I think it is EASIER and KINDER and more FAIR on the HORSE if he is taught by someone who is as precise and experienced as possible when he is first learning to keep is less confusing for the HORSE.

    I'm not saying it's impossible for a green on green pair to ever get the ones together, I am just saying what I think would be the best way. They are paying for the lessons anyway, so why not have the trainer ride the horse for 20 minutes at the end of each session to school the ones until they are solid?



  7. #7
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    Brookline, NH, USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    With a really schooled horse, you don't actually get to get 'a sense of the rhythm' at all, you just swing your legs like mad and horse thinks, 'oh, time to do one's'. You don't have to be that precise at all,
    I'm not an FEI rider (not even close!), but I've been lucky enough to sit on a few FEI horses, and each one was like sitting on finely tuned sportscar where aids had to be given with great tact and subtleness. The "Swing your legs like mad" statement boggles my mind. Employing that tactic sounds like the perfect way to get launched to the moon.



  8. #8
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    Default

    That's what Eva Marie Pracht told students who took lessons on her old FEI horse. And that's what I was told by an instructor about riding her GP horse as well.

    I'm not sure either instructor really meant what you guys are suggesting - that she was telling people to flail at a sensitive horse's sides and drive it crazy - hardly.

    What she meant I think, was first of all to make the rider relax and laugh a little, and not think it was so impossible, but also to give the aid more quickly than you're used to - that one needs to give the aid quickly or one will never get the rhythm, and yes, there actually are horses that are extremely easy to get to do one's.

    In any case, even if they are NOT so easy and do require a very sensitive aid or a perfect rhythm, I still maintain, it's very different to ride a trained horse than an untrained one.



  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    I'm not sure either instructor really meant what you guys are suggesting - that she was telling people to flail at a sensitive horse's sides and drive it crazy - hardly.
    It's not what WE are suggesting. It is what YOU suggested in YOUR post.

    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    I still maintain, it's very different to ride a trained horse than an untrained one.
    Well, I think the most basic of walk/trot riders has that concept figured out already.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    In any case, even if they are NOT so easy and do require a very sensitive aid or a perfect rhythm, I still maintain, it's very different to ride a trained horse than an untrained one.
    So, back to my first response on post #2. SLC, do you think that it is better (for the HORSE) for the experienced trainer to teach the horse, or for a rider who is not experienced riding ones to teach the horse?



  11. #11
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    Default

    You're trying to get me to state some absolute either 'do it' or 'don't do it' rule? I can't. That's just not right. To repeat, I feel it depends on the person, horse and instructor. Each individual is going to feel differently about it, and choose differently. In this case, you have a rider who is doing very well, has already gotten the first step done, has an instructor...and you want her to stop doing what she's doing? It makes no sense to me. She is doing fine - why tell her to stop?

    As you might observe, one poster already posted on this thread that she taught her horse ones with absolutely no prior experience. Unless you want to inform her she's lying, then....it does happen. Your experience has been different? That doesn't mean that it always fails. But it matches what I posted - that each person will feel differently and choose differently. Just because a person chooses to give it a try, doesn't make her wrong.

    And there are those for whom this just isn't right. Some people would find it too intimidating, or some horses are just very difficult to teach new things. Of course everyone is different. In this case, I'm all for the gal going ahead. In another case, I might not be. Here, it's already going well.

    Obviously, though, this rider, the daughter of the original poster, HAS taught her horse 1-time changes. Her next hurdle is the same hurdle it always is, to get 3 of them.

    Frankly, it sounds like she's doing pretty good so far.

    So, I would say that for her, this choice is working.

    So there's another one.

    I had a horse that is very laid back and tolerant, and I think a mannekin from Macy's could have taught him to do 1-time changes.

    He never got upset by any of the change work. My friend's horse she had at the same time got hysterical if anything new came along and asking for a quicker response to the aids made him have Blanche Dubois-style hysterics that involved him not just making a few commentaries with a hind foot or tail now and again, but throwing himself against the arena wall. She asked for help. That worked for her.

    either the mother trusts the instructor is handling this right or she doesn't trust the instructor is handling this right. My own feeling is that if the instructor has taught this girl to this stage, she probably is capable of continuing to do so.

    Just knowing that these things take time may help the mother to relax and not worry. I think that with a nice trainer and a nice horse, an inexperienced rider who wants to work and keep trying, can do a whole lot. There was a very young lady who used to post here who worked with Diedrich von Hopfgarten with her pinto pony, and she had never done anything like this before, she had him doing all the work and she had a great time doing it.

    The key is wanting to and having the guidance. If the situation were different, if there was no trainer there, if someone said 'I have no one helping me and I'm having a terrible time doing ones on a horse that doesn't know them and i've never done them', I would advise them getting some help. If they further said anything that made it sound like they were endangered, I'd say hey, why don't you get someone else to ride the horse for a while.

    I feel that a good trainer will know when to let a rider try herself, and when to step in and help. I don't feel you can make an absolute rule about what is right for each rider to attempt themselves and what is right to get the trainer to ride thru.

    And if they are ALREADY doing well on something, why have them stop?

    To say someone who's doing well at teaching the ones and has supervision there helping - WHY would I say 'ok, stop that, have someone else ride the horse, because people aren't supposed to do this'. It makes no sense to me.



  12. #12
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    Mar. 25, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    I think one's are the point where most people would tell you that you have to practice them on a trained horse before teaching your own horse. But this girl is already getting a pair of changes so the situation is a little different.

    I don't really think riding a confirmed horse that already does ones actually helps that much, especially if they're easy to get to do it. The easier they are to get to do it, the less they help with the process. With a really schooled horse, you don't actually get to get 'a sense of the rhythm' at all, you just swing your legs like mad and horse thinks, 'oh, time to do one's'. You don't have to be that precise at all, you have to be much more prescise to teach it than to ride it on a schooled horse. My own experience was that doing them on a trained horse had NOTHING to do with teaching my own horse. AT ALL. It was just too easy. Do the exact same thing on the untrained horse, nothing at all happens.

    As long as the rider is doing well getting 4's, 3's and 2's, and has ridden the ones a time or two on another horse, I don't think going round and round practicing them on an easy horse does a doggone thing, though a time or two might give the rider more a sense of confidence.

    Some people never do them on another horse before teaching their own. One gal told me she did them the first time on her home trained horse with a magazine in one hand and the reins in the other, LOL. I don't really think THAT'S true but anyhow.

    The other problem is, of course every horse is slighyl different, needing the aid at a very slightly different time. Don't believe me? Watch videos of top competitors in slow motion. Each horse actually has a slightly different timing. Some you ask at exactly the same point as the other tempe changes, some not. That's the other reason it helps more to get on one's own horse once one has the basic idea.

    The bottom line is that you either trust your trainer or you don't. It doesn't sound like she's doing a bad job.

    What you describe happening is pretty much how it usually goes. It isn't unusual for it to take a while, either for the horse, the rider or both. Even for a professional riding the horse themselves. This tack-tack thing doing two changes is the way most people start it.

    My own feeling is that the key isn't any special trick or any one exercise, just the quality of the canter and the response to the aids - to get the horse very straight and in general responding promptly to the aids. Sometimes going back and doing quick changes and walk canter transitions will speed up the hind legs. The other training going on at the same time tends to complement it, making the hind legs faster and stronger, such as half steps and other collection work.

    A good professional can judge if the rider is capable enough and the horse responsive yet calm enough. Some are, some aren't. It would really upset some people, others do quite well.

    Of course the other thing is that some horses never get so they can do one's. That does happen. But the training process allow for a lot of time before it will be done in competition, the horse is only PSG, right? He won't have to do them in competition for several YEARS.

    But if the rider is willing she will learn a heck of a lot more trying it herself, even if eventually the trainer has to step in and ride the horse some, that's not a bad thing either. Even if there are some difficulties or it takes some time, the rider will learn more and be more able to understand and be more a partner in training her own horses, than a consumer.

    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    You're trying to get me to state some absolute either 'do it' or 'don't do it' rule? I can't. That's just not right. To repeat, I feel it depends on the person, horse and instructor. Each individual is going to feel differently about it, and choose differently. In this case, you have a rider who is doing very well, has already gotten the first step done, has an instructor...and you want her to stop doing what she's doing? It makes no sense to me. She is doing fine - why tell her to stop?

    As you might observe, one poster already posted on this thread that she taught her horse ones with absolutely no prior experience. Unless you want to inform her she's lying, then....it does happen. Your experience has been different? That doesn't mean that it always fails. But it matches what I posted - that each person will feel differently and choose differently. Just because a person chooses to give it a try, doesn't make her wrong.

    And there are those for whom this just isn't right. Some people would find it too intimidating, or some horses are just very difficult to teach new things. Of course everyone is different. In this case, I'm all for the gal going ahead. In another case, I might not be. Here, it's already going well.

    Obviously, though, this rider, the daughter of the original poster, HAS taught her horse 1-time changes. Her next hurdle is the same hurdle it always is, to get 3 of them.

    Frankly, it sounds like she's doing pretty good so far.

    So, I would say that for her, this choice is working.

    So there's another one.

    I had a horse that is very laid back and tolerant, and I think a mannekin from Macy's could have taught him to do 1-time changes.

    He never got upset by any of the change work. My friend's horse she had at the same time got hysterical if anything new came along and asking for a quicker response to the aids made him have Blanche Dubois-style hysterics that involved him not just making a few commentaries with a hind foot or tail now and again, but throwing himself against the arena wall. She asked for help. That worked for her.

    either the mother trusts the instructor is handling this right or she doesn't trust the instructor is handling this right. My own feeling is that if the instructor has taught this girl to this stage, she probably is capable of continuing to do so.

    Just knowing that these things take time may help the mother to relax and not worry. I think that with a nice trainer and a nice horse, an inexperienced rider who wants to work and keep trying, can do a whole lot. There was a very young lady who used to post here who worked with Diedrich von Hopfgarten with her pinto pony, and she had never done anything like this before, she had him doing all the work and she had a great time doing it.

    The key is wanting to and having the guidance. If the situation were different, if there was no trainer there, if someone said 'I have no one helping me and I'm having a terrible time doing ones on a horse that doesn't know them and i've never done them', I would advise them getting some help. If they further said anything that made it sound like they were endangered, I'd say hey, why don't you get someone else to ride the horse for a while.

    I feel that a good trainer will know when to let a rider try herself, and when to step in and help. I don't feel you can make an absolute rule about what is right for each rider to attempt themselves and what is right to get the trainer to ride thru.

    And if they are ALREADY doing well on something, why have them stop?

    To say someone who's doing well at teaching the ones and has supervision there helping - WHY would I say 'ok, stop that, have someone else ride the horse, because people aren't supposed to do this'. It makes no sense to me.

    In case you didn't read the new rule in the revised rules section SLC I will point it out to you.

    3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
    Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal attacks, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable.
    Speaking from someone that both ridden a trained horse and taught my own horse as well as judged some of those "wild flinging legs" you have described I would point out that many of those horse also swing their haunches in time with the riders legs.

    If I am to assume this is how you taught YOUR horse then it is no wonder you didn't succeed in dressage.

    Personally SLC if you can't give information without going into numerous diatribes maybe looking after your new barn with its 1,000 rules would be more productive.



  13. #13
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    Oct. 17, 2005
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    IN
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
    If I am to assume this is how you taught YOUR horse then it is no wonder you didn't succeed in dressage.

    Personally SLC if you can't give information without going into numerous diatribes maybe looking after your new barn with its 1,000 rules would be more productive.
    Maybe I missed something here, but I didn't see any personal attacks or snipes in SLCs posts.
    I sure see them in your own post though. I know there are numerous people who just can't stand SLC but why can't you guys just ignore someone, they're on a BB for crying out loud. I can't imagine how you people handle those you don't like in person.



  14. #14
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    Jun. 26, 2004
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    Back to the how to teach them question it really helps if you have a quick, short collected canter and go along singing the tempo to yourself with the word "change" for a while before you start the ones. For example, go thru the short side and down the long singing (either in your head or out loud) "change, change, change...." in the rhythm of the canter, then at one of the middle letters ask for a quick change, change, change in the rhythm. Often the reason that the third change does not work after the nice "flip flop" is that the aid rhythm for the third change is too slow. I find that really singing the tempo is a big help.



  15. #15
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    Sep. 17, 2002
    Location
    Fallbrook, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
    In case you didn't read the new rule in the revised rules section SLC I will point it out to you.

    .

    Personally SLC if you can't give information without going into numerous diatribes maybe looking after your new barn with its 1,000 rules would be more productive.

    Jeez,

    do you guys always have to pick on SLC? It spoils the threads far more than reading the posts. Was your point that you think they are too long, thus, "a diatribe"? Having her entire posts quoted is pretty pointless. We already read her posts. That was her contribution about teaching one's, and, it was on topic. Bashing slc is not on topic. Live and let live, for crying out loud!

    Now, MY contribution for this topic would be to look at some of the videos. Both the Rudolf Ziellinger canter video and the some of the USDF convention tapes have info and input on teaching ones.

    I, personally, would hire a pro, because teaching singles makes me nervous, although riding tempi's does not. Go figure.
    Jill
    www.eurofoal.homestead.com
    European bloodlines made in America



  16. #16
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    Aug. 25, 2005
    Location
    Northeast
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    10,186

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly in NJ View Post
    IMHO, this is not something that a rider without prior experience can teach a horse without prior experience. At least one of the two has to have a clear sense of how to perform this movement for the other to be able to learn. My suggestion would be to invest in training rides to have the ones taught to your horse by a professional. After the ones are pretty reliable, then your duaghter can learn how to ride them. IME, that would be the best way to not confuse the horse and fry him out. If the aids are not consistent and the rider does not have the experience to reinforce, rebalance, etc. at exactly the right time you can create probelms. Better to teach it correctly from the start than to cause a mess that you have to un-train and re-train. Worth the investment in the training for sure.

    With all the posturing and foot stamping going on, this is still the best response.

    Call me Simon(Cowell)!



  17. #17
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    Jan. 23, 2004
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    Could you all do me a favour and STOP quoting SLiC's posts in your own?

    It totally ruins the entire point of the Ignore Function.

    Cinder



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurofoal View Post
    Jeez,

    do you guys always have to pick on SLC? It spoils the threads far more than reading the posts. Was your point that you think they are too long, thus, "a diatribe"? Having her entire posts quoted is pretty pointless. We already read her posts. That was her contribution about teaching one's, and, it was on topic. Bashing slc is not on topic. Live and let live, for crying out loud!
    I don't pick on anyone but to spout such nonsense like this--

    With a really schooled horse, you don't actually get to get 'a sense of the rhythm' at all, you just swing your legs like mad and horse thinks, 'oh, time to do one's'. You don't have to be that precise at all, you have to be much more prescise to teach it than to ride it on a schooled horse. My own experience was that doing them on a trained horse had NOTHING to do with teaching my own horse. AT ALL. It was just too easy. Do the exact same thing on the untrained horse, nothing at all happens.
    Will have every person not familiar with the way a person with feeling will teach this movement into wildly throwing their legs all over the place.

    What SLC described is the most unprofessional diatribe of utter foolishness that unfortunately some one will try on their horse. If that horse goes wild, bucks or any other such dangerous behavior possibly causing injury or death then it will be indirectly her fault.

    I have just seen too much dangerous information coming from this person to the point that she even said to ignore a threatening stalker of a young female kid because he will just go away.


    It is my right and opinion to inform any young dressage wannabe that following such irresponsible information is risky.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrygoround View Post
    With all the posturing and foot stamping going on, this is still the best response.

    Call me Simon(Cowell)!
    You better believe it is.



  20. #20
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    Jan. 30, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickeydoodle View Post
    Back to the how to teach them question it really helps if you have a quick, short collected canter and go along singing the tempo to yourself with the word "change" for a while before you start the ones. For example, go thru the short side and down the long singing (either in your head or out loud) "change, change, change...." in the rhythm of the canter, then at one of the middle letters ask for a quick change, change, change in the rhythm. Often the reason that the third change does not work after the nice "flip flop" is that the aid rhythm for the third change is too slow. I find that really singing the tempo is a big help.
    Mickeydoodle, thats the kind of information we need, thank you!!!!! I think that in our case we will be having the trainer get on the horse while also having my daughter working on it too. My daughters ambition is to become a trainer herself, so in her case I think it will be beneficial for her to try and teach her horse them and have the trainer get on only if its really not working.

    Mickeydoodle, thats really great advice, thank you so much!!!!



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