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  1. #1
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    Mar. 1, 2005
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    Wellborn, Florida
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    697

    Default I do not understand the thinking

    I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". Do all eventers think thatmental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2000
    Location
    Chantilly,va.
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    10,869

    Post I hear you

    I hear your frustration; It is a question of eduction and training for the

    "coaches:" sorry to say, I have had similar experiences with Olympic medal winners; Did you notice the latest ad for GMs' horsemastership series in Wellington this season? He will be having Susan Harris doing her "visible horse/rider " demo, whichwas designedfor this. my experience has been with coaches who have students try out horses, and put them in a vise grip/head lock; making it impossible for them to jump; my [poor horses don't know what's happening, after all they've been trained to carry a rider around on totally loose rein, if necessary;to "ride themselves
    " to , over and away from the jumps

    I
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2006
    Location
    BC Canada
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    283

    Default

    First off I'm NOT an event rider, but I have many friends who do event. Personally, as a jumper rider (who loves derbies) I want my horses to be quiet and forward at the same time. I expect and train my guys to jump what is put in front of them. I train my jumpers on event courses a few times every year for a change of scenery, experience and to teach them things such as drops, hills etc. Kudos to you for putting in the time, effort and training to create well rounded young horses. Not all event riders are looking for out of control horses. My good friend is an event rider and coach and her horse did 2 years of dressage prior to starting out on event jumps. She wanted him to learn to be balanced, collected, strong and flexable before she asked him to do any XC. As a result, shes placed in every event she entered on a green horse and her horse isnt over excited or crazy over the jumps - and yes, she always come in under time as well.



  4. #4
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    People's Republic of MD
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    376

    Default

    Firstly, I am not a trainer. If there was a trainer spectrum, I would be on the far end right near the words NOT TRAINER. Luckily, I work with a great REAL trainer, more importantly, my girls work with this trainer as they are the ones that own the "real" event horses in my house. The REAL event trainer insists their horses go just as you have described. There is no racing around like bats out of hell. Forward? yes. Crazy? No. There is lots and lots of discussion whether we are in the jump ring or cross country schooling on the difference between the two and how we get to nicely forward, but never allow crazy. When I get to purchase my next horse, it will go just as you have described.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2006
    Posts
    814

    Default

    My trainers insist that a horse be in front of your leg at all gates.

    They want impulsion NOT speed.

    That being said they like a horse that "takes" you to the fence but that has more to do with attitude than anything else.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,240

    Default

    Unfortunately a lot of not-very-good trainers think that in order to be an event horse, it has to basically be running away with you and jumps whatever is in front of it in order to avoid slowing down.

    These are people who think the quote "Let the fence be the bit" means "if 3' doesn't slow your horse down, crank it up to 3'6"." Don't get me wrong it is one of my favorite quotes! but I want to put "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

    Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

    Jennifer



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2005
    Location
    Pa
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    1,607

    Default

    [QUOTE=szipi;2940503]I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". [QUOTE]


    Okay.... flame suit on and zipped.......
    First..... why would you feel this way just because your horse was not "their kind of horse" which is what their statements would mean to me. I am not trying to discredit your feelings on the matter but I think when you are breeding, or training and selling horses you have to accept that not everyone is going to like your horses and/or have the same opinion about them or training methods as you do. I am sure you are frustrated but everyone unfortunately has their own taste as to what they want. Also why does it have to be one extreme or another. I don't see too many event prospects on a day to day basis ripping around out of control and stiff, crooked, and charging fences. I really honestly from your statement do not see where this was implied by them basically saying your horse was quieter then what they were looking for, or too quiet for THEM, or that to THEM the horse wasn't eventing material. Sounds like you need to maybe not take their opinions so personally and accept that not everyone wants the same things in a young horse. Eventually someone will come along and it will be a match....sometimes it just takes a while. Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.


    ****"Do all eventers think that mental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com


    I don't think that is what conditioning means at all. I think at least as I was lead to believe it is the process in which you get a horse fit meaning trotting hills, controled canter sets, and gallops...but babies (3 &4 yr old) really don't need to be doing gallop sets to go Novice and I certainly don't think there are people out there "runnning them off their feet" at least not anyone who knows what they are doing. I am not sure where you were going with that statement..... that confused me.

    As for trotting the whole x-co because you can still make the time.... thats fine if you plan to stay at Novice and/or you are timid or just learning. It really is best and essential that they learn to canter a course if they are going to ever move up and/or truely be an event horse. The idea is to get them going forward at a nice balanced canter and trotting sometimes sets them up to suck back at fences. I have bred, raise and trained alot of young horses for eventing and I never trotted an entire x-co course. My babies learned to canter single fences at home first and when first starting out competing they DID trot the downhill fences, and occaisionally would break to trot looking at something but most of the course was done at the canter. Speed trotting around a x-co course really isn't any better for their legs. JMO ...



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Posts
    841

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by szipi View Post
    Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event".
    From looking at your website, it appears you are more geared toward the EQ/hunter/jumper rings. Or at least towards that kind of sales.

    As opposed to these disciplines, eventing has a wider range of acceptable temperments and attitudes for their horses. Some of us enjoy riding hotter horses and are lucky that they fit into our sport My feeling would be that you are running into riders or trainers who prefer a more sensitive or hot personality. I don't think this is necessarily representative of all eventers, but it is not uncommon either.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2007
    Location
    Andover, MA
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    5,548

    Default

    total newbie comment here, and my apologies to anyone who has already seen it. I am getting the impression that at the high levels, eventers do need a little "hot" to really be competitive. My trainer-in-all-but-name got her current eventer, who is lovely, because his original owner/trainer realized that he is just too quiet/mellow to really "go" at high levels. She has no intention of going higher than Prelim on him, and knows he may end up being a bit too slow even for that level.

    On the other end of the scale, at the lower levels there are many good horses available at reasonable prices. There are old schoolmasters who need to take it easy, young horses who need more miles, "off" breed horses that will be fine up to BN but may not have the speed for anything higher (I am thinking of the lovely little Fjord mare who has won BN at the AECs a couple of times. Amazing horse, but I doubt she can get around a Training, or possibly a Novice, course within time.), horses who will take care of their rider even if s/he is mostly in the dark about how to properly do a good X/C round.

    So if you are competing in the former market, you somehow need to show that your horses *do* have that boldness and speed. And in the latter market, there's a lot of competition that may be lower-priced. But it sounds like you have good horses, so best wishes on figuring this out.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    335

    Default

    A dear friend of mine has a beautiful gray TB gelding who is has half the fire of my Irish sport horse. They are VERY successful, almost always finished first at training level and have placed 4th and 2nd at their first two prelims.

    I watch her warm up for cross country and worry b/c they slowly gallumph around. She gets him fired up right before they go in the start box with a fast gallop and a few smacks of the whip and they are off. He is so relaxed and so calm. I don't know why event riders think their horses have to be half nuts to have the fire to event.

    That being said, I like a horse with a bit more fire. But that's just me. My dear friends horse is absolutley amazing and loves his job but goes about it like the turtle in the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race. We could all learn a thing or two from horses and riders like these.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep. 6, 1999
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
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    5,246

    Default

    Maybe the wrong riders are looking at your horses? That's the only thing I can figure out because all the trainers I know would LOVE to have a rideable athletic horse under them.
    And not 'hot' in terms of temperament. 'Hot' as far as can go all day long and ask for more the next day.
    And not 'boldness' in terms of go no matter what. Boldness as far as they like to figure things out and love a challenge.
    One thing that a lot of eventers DON'T like is BIG. That's not real handy out on x-c. They can be tall, sure, but not BIG.
    The eventers would love to have a jumper. That 4'3" is really big now and they need a good jumper at the end of the day.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 27, 2002
    Location
    Texas
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    5,175

    Default

    I have a friend who is a very lower level rider who rides with an ULR. She really needs a nice little quiet horse to show her the ropes and allow her to have FUN, because she is very much a beginner physically and mentally.

    Instead, she rides this ball-of-nervous-energy horse, because her trainer has convinced her that in order to event, she needs something HOT. She was so nervous on this horse last fall when we went x-c schooling, that she only jumped two jumps, and spent most of the ride clamped down in the fetal position. The rest of us were out there having fun on our quiet, well-schooled lower level horses. It was really sad, because I could tell that she was envious of our horses, who would hack around on the buckle and stand quietly, but were also well-prepared to "wake up" and do their x-c jobs correctly with plenty of enthusiasm and impulsion. But her trainer has convinced her that she needs something "hot," so she won't even consider a horse like one of ours. I will never understand that mentality.

    I'm just a lower level warrior, but I don't think that an event horse needs to be a fire breathing dragon to be successful.



  13. #13
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    PA
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    Default

    Just because a few feel that way doesn't mean all eventers do.....I like sensitive rides. I want FORWARD well installed....I hate it when I take off my leg and a horse's instinct is to stop like a golf cart. That does not mean that I like horses who are tense or run aways....hello...that makes it kinda of tough to be competitive in dressage.

    But I like a horse who goes to their fences and takes you to their fences without running to their fences.

    But this is just the type of horse I personally like...it was the kind of horse I liked in the jumpers and the kind I like to ride generally. Put me on a lazy slug or on a horse that pulls like a tank...and I ride like crap. Other people ride those types of horses very well....and it doesn't mean that a horse who is not my type of horse isn't a very nice horse for someone else.

    I would not classify all eventers off the statements of a few. And the last thing ANY eventer who knows anything (and values their own safety or at least wants to be competitive) wants to be sitting on is something crazy.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 16, 2008 at 01:55 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 20, 2007
    Location
    USA
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    331

    Arrow hmm

    I agree that I like a horse that really really wants to take me to a fence. I have loved three horses that could be classified as tanks; I don't mind it. I like standing up a bit and saying, "Easy, wait, wait. Alright." That's a personal thing. I really dislike riding horses that act like golf carts (as someone mentioned) w/ no weight in their contact. I like a lot of contact in the bridle, and just a light leg (like, keeping horse straight, nice tight form). That's just me.

    I see the distances so much better when the horse is saying, "Oh yeah, let me jump it...from here? No? From here? No? Fine, from here? Let's smoke it!"

    Ralph said it was like a horse taking you by the collar and saying, "Come with me"...I always liked that expression.

    That said, I don't appreciate a horse that acts like an idiot in warm-up or doesn't listen. I'm not into spooky, huge barreled horses who need to be coaxed into situations. I like bold, I like a smaller barrel, I like a compact feel-not a big, round, nervous-nelly. The key to riding the aforementioned tanks was the fact that while they loved to jump, and wanted to take me to the fence, they also listened and kept a good brain about it all. I want a horse that communicates out there w/ me, not just lopes along and pops over jumps la-de-da or takes off and using jumps as speed bumps.
    The Mighty Thoroughbred Clique
    Freaky Farm Hermit Clique



  15. #15
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    Mar. 23, 2000
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    Wayne, IL USA
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    Default

    You know, it is really hard for breeders. You can have ten people look at the same horse and get ten different answers as to why he won't work for them. Not every horse/rider combination is a good match. You breed and market the best horses you can and try not to take the business aspects personally. I know that is easier said then done when you have so much into these horses.



  16. #16
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    Jan. 25, 2000
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    Ohio
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRuss1996
    Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.
    Well said.

    It could be that your horses just aren't the right animals for eventing.

    With the prices on your website- people should expect a lot.



  17. #17
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    Sep. 12, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
    as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.



    I agree.

    Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

    On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.



  18. #18
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    Feb. 1, 2006
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    Missouri
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdCharm View Post
    ... "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

    Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

    Jennifer
    BRAVA! Well said!

    I was thinking on reading the original post, that perhaps these "trainers" can't imagine a young horse having that much skill/knowledge at a young age, so they assume it means the horse has no fire, no drive. [?]



  19. #19
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Default

    Are people looking at your horses as "lower level future-packers", or "potential upper level eventers"? Makes a difference.

    But either way, one of the key attributes of a good eventer (upper or lower level) is the ability to "think for itself", and not wait for direction from the rider. Reading between the lines, THAT may be what your horses seem to be missing.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  20. #20
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    May. 23, 2006
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson View Post
    I agree.

    Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

    On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.

    A good event horse should be forward "AND" thinking.



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