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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 17, 2007
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    anywhere the AF takes us
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    Default Not an ad but a question about levels...

    I have a horse for sale and he is on sale sites. I got a reply to my ad asking me if he could do 4th level work. I doubt it--since I have him priced between 5-8k!!! My daughter does train w/a very repescted dressage trainer. I think she would have told me that we were sitting on a "gold mine" of a horse.

    We event so I don't know what 4th level work is. Horse currently is solid at T level and can do 1st level quite easy. My daughter's trainer said at 2nd level...the rider would have their work cut out for them b/c that is when true collection is asked of the horse.

    What is a 4th level horse? i.e. what is required of a horse that is going 4th and above?

    What would one expect to pay for a 4th level horse?

    Also--for those of you who know the levels of dressage eventing can you give me a break down?

    i.e.

    Dressage

    Intro
    T
    1st
    2nd
    3rd
    4th
    PSG
    I-1
    I-2
    GP

    Eventing

    BN=(i'd gues equal to training)
    N=
    T=
    P=
    I=
    A=



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2003
    Location
    MA
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    6,357

    Default

    You can find all the information that you want about the dressage tests for each level here.

    http://www.usef.org/Contentpage2.aspx?id=dressage

    The market value of your horse will be be more related to breed, age, size, soundness, conformation and current training than any factor relating to his supposed "potential."
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2005
    Posts
    2,607

    Default

    Eventing=Dressage

    BN=Training
    N=Training
    T=1st
    P=high 1st
    I=2nd
    A=third



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2004
    Posts
    36

    Default eventing levels

    If you're inquiring which level at a dressage show is equivalent to the dressage test done by an eventer at an event from what I remember Eqsiu's notes are correct. So the requirements of a dressage test for a horse at a dressage show at Training level are roughly equivalent to the requirements for a horse showing at the beginner novice level at an event.

    If you're inquiring about the relative training of event horses and dressage horses and how they compare ...meaning not the exact dressage movements required of each but rather how "educated" does the horse/rider have to be at the particular level with regard to their respective discipline I'd suggest the following as a benchmark for comparison.

    BN=Training
    N=Training/First
    T=Second/Third
    P= Fourth/PSG
    I=PSG/I1
    A=I2/GP

    But keep in mind if you have a new event horse competing at preliminary versus a seasoned competitor ...that distinction also exists in dressage - a horse that is just starting fourth level is going to be different than a seasoned fourth level horse ready to venture into PSG tests.

    There are a couple of big "cliffs" in dressage where you see the percent of horse/rider combinations drop off. The first is about 2nd level - some horses have a hard time with the introduction of collected and medium gaits as well as the lateral work. The next is at about PSG - there is a big difference in how a competent PSG horse goes versus a competent 4th level horse, again the level of engagement demanded for the collection and throughness of a PSG horse is often the factor. The last is between I1 and I2 where the movements required change substantially (for example I2 requires piaffe and passage).

    My observation is that there is a decent cliff in eventing between training and prelim and that the difference between prelim and Inter. are pretty substantial as well.
    I have no scientific basis for the opinion above just my observations from years of boarding with eventers. It should give you a decent feel for how the skills/knowledge levels of the horses compare across disciplines.

    Hope that helps.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 25, 2005
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    Default

    Eqsui is more accurate on the translation of the levels than Happyrider (sorry Happyrider! ) - training level eventers are most definitely not doing 2nd/3rd level work! W, T, C is really all that is required in eventing at Training level - so roughly equivalent to 1st level due to the expectation for a little more submission, etc., while lateral work, counter canter, simple changes, etc. are required in dressage at 2nd and 3rd - these things are developed progressively at P through A in eventing. Advanced level eventers are doing 3rd, possibly some aspects of 4th, so the other levels from prelim on up are a little off there too.

    If you are being asked whether or not your horse can do 4th level work, you should picture in your mind's eye what the dressage tests at Rolex look like. They are doing 4th level work - a bit more than the Advanced eventers not yet competing at the four star level.
    Treat Jockey for Spellbound and Smidgeon



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 20, 2001
    Location
    San Jose, CA
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    1,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
    Eqsui is more accurate on the translation of the levels than Happyrider (sorry Happyrider! ) - training level eventers are most definitely not doing 2nd/3rd level work!
    I understood what Happyrider was comparing. She was merely comparing the progression through the levels of each sport. A Prlim Level eventing has progressed about halfway through the evening levels, the same as a Third Level dressage has progressed about halfway through the dressage levels. And a GP level horse has reached the top of the sport the same as an Advanced horse has reach the top. She was not comparing the level of dressage training, just the level of progress in the sport.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2003
    Location
    Middleburg, VA
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    13,241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevida View Post
    I understood what Happyrider was comparing. She was merely comparing the progression through the levels of each sport. A Prlim Level eventing has progressed about halfway through the evening levels, the same as a Third Level dressage has progressed about halfway through the dressage levels. And a GP level horse has reached the top of the sport the same as an Advanced horse has reach the top. She was not comparing the level of dressage training, just the level of progress in the sport.
    Zevida, thanks for the clarification...I'm tired and stressed with prep work for leaving for two months, so I was having a hard time grasping Happyrider's break down. I kept thinking she was meaning a Training level eventer should be schooling 2nd/3rd, and was freaking out a little/laughing (most of our training level horses school a very solid First, and maybe a little 2nd, depending on their age and temperament). Your clarification makes a ton of sense! Thanks!!



  8. #8
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    Mar. 16, 2003
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    Wet and Windy Washington
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    Default

    I have a horse for sale and he is on sale sites. I got a reply to my ad asking me if he could do 4th level work.
    Horse selling is, IMO, a nightmare and questions like this aren't uncommon. I was selling my (now sold) 15.3 5 year old as a lower level dressage horse for under 10k and had numerous calls asking if he could do upper level. I almost wanted to start telling poeple 'sure he can, I just like to misrepresent him as lower then he is and sell him for peanuts!' I didn;t think I could advertise him more clearly but....
    I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.



  9. #9
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    Jan. 15, 2003
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    Default

    4th level- at the highest test of the level the horse has to be able to show 3 and 4 tempis, half pirouettes at canter, med and extended trot and canter, halfpass at trot and canter and all the various transitions

    LOL..
    you'll get a lot of these questions, just be prepared with a party line of "it will depend on the rider"

    seriously though, i cant beleive the number of people who will email on a TL horse and ask if it has the ability to piaffe! .. or do the all the GP work...



  10. #10
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    Apr. 1, 2003
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    Cocoa, Fla
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    Default

    Movements at 4th level (Test 1 - Lowest of 4 tests at this level):
    3 Walks, Trots & Canters - Collected, medium, extended
    Canter / Halt transitions
    1/2 Pass (Trot & Canter)
    Shoulder-In
    Reinback
    1/2 Pirouette
    Flying Change
    Sandy in Fla.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 2006
    Location
    Arizona
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    2,269

    Default

    What is a 4th level horse? i.e. what is required of a horse that is going 4th and above?

    Movements at 4th level (Test 1 - Lowest of 4 tests at this level):
    3 Walks, Trots & Canters - Collected, medium, extended
    Canter / Halt transitions
    1/2 Pass (Trot & Canter)
    Shoulder-In
    Reinback
    1/2 Pirouette
    Flying Change


    Yes those are the movements required of fourth level test 1......but what really separates the chaff from the wheat is true collection, engagement (strength) and the power (impulsion) to carry it off. The movements themselves may not appear too daunting but putting them together and actually maintaining the frame of a true fourth level test/horse is something else entirely. My horse can do all those movements and we can even do them all in sequence without totally falling apart; however, it's that other "stuff" that we're really having to work on before I can call him confirmed at that level - of course just to annoy the proponents of the "tabled proposal" I'm showing 4th 1 at a recognized show in a little over a week so I guess it's all relative



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2005
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    2,607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JackSprats Mom View Post
    Horse selling is, IMO, a nightmare and questions like this aren't uncommon. I was selling my (now sold) 15.3 5 year old as a lower level dressage horse for under 10k and had numerous calls asking if he could do upper level. I almost wanted to start telling poeple 'sure he can, I just like to misrepresent him as lower then he is and sell him for peanuts!' I didn;t think I could advertise him more clearly but....
    Or when someone asks me (an eventer, who bred for eventing) if the yearling has grand prix movement. I have no clue. Do I think he'll be able to event advanced? Yes, I feel he has that potential physically. Mentally, he may not want it enough or whatever. I have no idea how grand prix movers differ from a nice mover in general. How should I know if the yearling will someday have the ability to piaffe? It is not my area of expertise. Watch the video I sent you. That and being told the jumper bred hanoverian who free jumped 3'6" easily would end up 2" too short to jump 4'. Really now. 4' may be out of her reach, but it's not because she's shorter than 16.2 hh.



  13. #13
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    Jul. 19, 2003
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    Middleburg, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by reidsporthorses.nz View Post
    4th level- at the highest test of the level the horse has to be able to show 3 and 4 tempis, half pirouettes at canter, med and extended trot and canter, halfpass at trot and canter and all the various transitions

    LOL..
    you'll get a lot of these questions, just be prepared with a party line of "it will depend on the rider"

    seriously though, i cant beleive the number of people who will email on a TL horse and ask if it has the ability to piaffe! .. or do the all the GP work...
    This is amazing to me! We have a decent 1st level horse/schooling 2nd for sale, and I think everyone who has called about her has asked if she does changes. Does she need to do changes?? Since when does schooling 2nd equate to having her changes? I also frequently get asked if she's a 4th+ potential horse...sigh...she's is what she is!

    Selling is a pain!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2003
    Location
    Cocoa, Fla
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by exvet View Post
    What is a 4th level horse? i.e. what is required of a horse that is going 4th and above?

    Movements at 4th level (Test 1 - Lowest of 4 tests at this level):
    3 Walks, Trots & Canters - Collected, medium, extended
    Canter / Halt transitions
    1/2 Pass (Trot & Canter)
    Shoulder-In
    Reinback
    1/2 Pirouette
    Flying Change

    Yes those are the movements required of fourth level test 1......but what really separates the chaff from the wheat is true collection, engagement (strength) and the power (impulsion) to carry it off. The movements themselves may not appear too daunting but putting them together and actually maintaining the frame of a true fourth level test/horse is something else entirely. My horse can do all those movements and we can even do them all in sequence without totally falling apart; however, it's that other "stuff" that we're really having to work on before I can call him confirmed at that level - of course just to annoy the proponents of the "tabled proposal" I'm showing 4th 1 at a recognized show in a little over a week so I guess it's all relative
    I agree - but since OP sounds as if she had no clue as to what Dressage 4th level required (and I suspect her horse can NOT even perform some of those movements based on the thread), I elected NOT to go into a more subjective discussion on HOW the horse executes the movements versus WHAT (i.e. objective criteria) movements are required for 4th level.
    Sandy in Fla.



  15. #15
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    Apr. 1, 2003
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    Cocoa, Fla
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    This is amazing to me! We have a decent 1st level horse/schooling 2nd for sale, and I think everyone who has called about her has asked if she does changes. Does she need to do changes?? Since when does schooling 2nd equate to having her changes? I also frequently get asked if she's a 4th+ potential horse...sigh...she's is what she is!

    Selling is a pain!
    Some lower level horse can do changes because they were taught them when horse jumped (etc...), but YOU are correct - changes are NOT required for 2nd level - not til 3rd.
    Sandy in Fla.



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