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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
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    MA
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    12,712

    Default

    [quote=YankeeLawyer;2916575]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper'sMom View Post

    That comment was quite stunning. I am sorry, but the arrogance of these people is just astounding to me.
    You're not alone.
    I guess I should stick to Native Costume classes with my Arabs, eh?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2007
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    2,094

    Default Let me make one thing very clear

    I have been in this business for over 25 years now. I have given many judge-clinics, produced videos and dvd's for the judge's graduate program in Holland, wrote books and articles about judging the freestyle to music, stayed in hotels for weeks with judges, trainers and riders. I NEVER ever heard that judges like to give LOW scores, even stronger; they hated to give LOW scores. Believe me they all want to give the 8's, 9's and 10's.



  3. #43
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    Dec. 19, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by angel View Post
    I would say, Theo, that most riders over here do not compete above levels that they have been led to believe they are capable. On the thread you posted, one of those folk awhile back posted pictures of her riding. For the level that she was supposed to be showing, it was dreadful. Yet, she has a regular instructor who is encouraging her onward! As a rule, I do not see problems in the ring to the degree these pictures showed. However, I do see problems in the upper levels that are the direct results of missing parts in the lower levels. I tend to think that the problem in this country is more about how the judges are awarding scores. There is too much touchy, feely going on. Whether I would see the same things in your country at your lower levels I cannot be sure. But, I can tell you that the upper level videos that you post show signs of missing parts in the training as well.

    Can you be more specific PLEASE ?

    Furthermore there are many videos of level 2 and 3 rides on my website !



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Deep South
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    14,830

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    Quote Originally Posted by freestyle2music View Post
    I have been in this business for over 25 years now. I have given many judge-clinics, produced videos and dvd's for the judge's graduate program in Holland, wrote books and articles about judging the freestyle to music, stayed in hotels for weeks with judges, trainers and riders. I NEVER ever heard that judges like to give LOW scores, even stronger; they hated to give LOW scores. Believe me they all want to give the 8's, 9's and 10's.

    We are all very much aware that dressage in general is absolutely wonderful in Holland and Europe in general. Too bad that is not the subject of this thread. Unless you have extensive experience in the US dressage scene, I would suggest you keep your opinions to yourself!



  5. #45
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    Feb. 9, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by freestyle2music View Post
    What puzzles me is how USDF/USEF is going to permit non-US resident riders/horses in shows above 3rd Level where there is going to be a minimum point requirement.
    Foreign riders have to present a letter from their national federation stating at which level they are qualified to ride.


    I can see the European countries doing this for their CDI-level riders, but I sure don't see Canada doing this for their 3rd level riders who happen to want to show at a US show. What a pain!



  6. #46
    Bold Jax Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by freestyle2music View Post
    OK let me dream a little : I can't imagine that many dressage-riders deliberatly compete above their own or their horses levels ??????????????????????

    Before I continue is this a wrong assumption ?
    Oh yes they do! It's all ego based for the rider and a trainer who either lacks the balls to set the rider straight or is afraid to be completely honest and lose a client. I remember once watching a rider at the Del Mar Nationals. Just because she bought a sale horse from Guenter Seidel, the rider thought that she should be able to go in and and do a PSG or I freestyle. OMG, what a train wreck! And I know the rider's trainer told her she wasn't near ready for this. I couldn't believe someone could be that foolish.



  7. #47
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    Dec. 19, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post
    We are all very much aware that dressage in general is absolutely wonderful in Holland and Europe in general. Too bad that is not the subject of this thread. Unless you have extensive experience in the US dressage scene, I would suggest you keep your opinions to yourself!
    I was refering to the post of Bold Jax

    And for the rest of your post, I don't even want to take the time to answer that.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2005
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    29

    Default communication

    Part of my post was a comment on the lack of communication from DC. Had anyone heard of this last summer? I saw this on this BB around xmas if I'm not correct. I personally was stunned.

    I would be willing to go to Louisville, KY, but I am not an elected person from my fellow peers. Someone please tell me why our elected Regional people didn't/haven't opened some sort of mass communication for this rule change.

    AHJA had a rule change concerning their helmet rule not too long ago. I know that that was a very volatile subject going either way no matter who you talked to.

    I pay my dues at the local level, I volunteer, I pay my USEF/USDF dues. Where is my representation for a rule change that could forever affect the way we all "go" to shows.

    I thought I would post the mission statement from the USDF website, the competitors handbook, but somehow it's under revision.

    I copied this from revisions to the bylaws posted on USDF.org on November 1, 2007.

    "Section 1. Whenever at least 30% of the Participating Members or at least 20% of the
    Group Member Organizations indicate by written request to the Executive Board that an
    action be taken, or that an action be discontinued, the Executive Board shall submit such
    request to the current Presidents of each Group Member Organization and to each current
    Participating Member by mail ballot. Such ballot shall be mailed not less than fifteen days
    prior to the last date on which such ballots must be returned. "
    Racheal



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2002
    Location
    SW USA
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    438

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    I completely agree with piaffegirls previous statement. This is a ridiculous complicated rule change with ramifications far beyond the simple passing of as of yet undecided standards. And Ms. Foy's comments were rude. I am sorry that she is tired of seing cowbred ponies in dressage. I am certain that since she has worked sooooo hard for 20 years at her sport that she would like to personally go tell the next hapless amateur that is on a quarterpony that she needs to replace it immediately !!!! I have worked to hard for you to muck up/f***up my damn Olympic discipline. Perhaps the best way down the path to "true & classic dressage" is to license the damn instructors. Not the existing system but an actual academy that they need to "graduate" from. Just getting in could be elitist enough !!! Also I would personally like to attach a bullshit meter to the forehead of all applicants. If your shit meter is activated the majority of your term you are out !!!! If your shit meter is activated only in the presence of a client you are out immediately. If your shit meter is activated in front of a current dressage comittee member you IMMEDIATELY move up to the next level.!!!! They need their energies directed elsewhere...this problem is not the 5000 lb elephant that is in the room.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2005
    Posts
    29

    Default what my husband wanted to say

    Miss Doir, my husband is cheering, he wanted to say all of what you said and more, but I told him we should be diplomats, we should try and emulate what our leaders (DC) are doing.

    I'm sorry, had to say it.

    Anyone reading this who cares about the health of our (not Europe's) USDF should be telling all your friends you show with to email USEF (acook@usef.org) and our emails will get to the DC this upcoming weekend.
    Racheal



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2002
    Location
    SW USA
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    438

    Default

    Since I am on a rant whatever happened to dressage being able to benefit "every" horse. I grew up showing QH's. I now ride my Ferrari WB. If all I could afford or for that matter desired to ride was a cowpony or the "majikal Arab" so often referred to here I would be just as happy. Would I be successful or able to move up? Depends on your definition of success. When I went in search of my dream dressage horse I kissed a lot of frogs. Tried one horse that was trained to GP I would never have even considered putting in my barn at any level of training. To say he was conformationally challenged was kind. I would have never wasted my time and efforts in that direction to bring him up the levels. But someone did. Maybe it was all they had to work with. Or maybe they found him to be thoroughly enjoyable and fun and really enjoyed every step of the challenge. He just was not my cup of tea. Nor I his for that matter which he made VERY clear !!! I really do not want the DC prescribing a numerical formula to measure my successes against. That is I believe the purpose of receiving a score for riding a test in the first place. Oh which by the way I will have already paid for by the time the judge gives it to me. If I am too stupid to realize that I am doing a terrible job of riding a level by my score that is my problem. Would I be doing a diservice to my horse by riding poorly? Probably. Is he kept/fed/taken care of at great expense and having all his needs met? Probably. Could he do much worse than having a poor scoring dressage rider bug him?? You betcha!! I am not in favor of dumbing down the sport by ANY means. I merely suggest that we are shoveling poop from the bottom up as near punishment for the lack of good training and education being readily available in this country. Their focus is misguided. Solve the bigger issue...good training....high standards...easy to access competent professionals...a ready supply of capable and affordable mounts..these are the bigger issues given our geographic challenges and the size of our sport here. Stop trying to mimic other countries when their models are not comparable. Ever heard the term apples to oranges. What we need on the DC and board at large are INNOVATORS not imitators. Get a clue !!!!



  12. #52

    Default Is there something else going on here?

    This all seems very strange......is 3rd level a prerequisite for moving forward in the USDF's judging program or some other group outside of competitors?

    Now, having asked this question..... I can remember Axel Steiner judging a show in the Pacific NW where many of the 3rd level competitors, amateurs and professionals alike, were given scores in the 30's and 40's. It was an eye-opener for me. I don't think he was asked back, but my trainer thought his scores were right on the mark.

    Clearly, the committee felt this was a way to pass a rule that would then be administered by USEF rather than USDF.....again, is there something here we are all missing.....



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2000
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    2,419

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    Yes, there is something you are missing.

    THIS IS NOT COMING FROM THE USDF.

    It is coming from the USEF only. Now, it is confusing because the members of the committee are members of both organizations, but really USDF has nothing to do with it other than they are the ones who will have to do the administration work.

    Because it is a USEF rule change proposal, there ARE NO regional representatives. Everything is done by the Board of Directors of USEF, which are 52 people appointed to be on the board from all the breeds and disciplines under the USEF umbrella.

    There were little rumors and hints of this coming last year, but the first time any of the proposed qualifications were seen in public was at the open meeting of the USEF Dressage Committee at the USDF convention. This committee is NOT under the governance of the USDF, they just have one open meeting at the convention kind of as a courtesy to USDF. But this meeting was the first time any of us saw or heard of any of the actual proposed requirements.

    The best way to be heard is to contact the USEF Board of Directors before the meeting next week. USDF cannot do anything about it.



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2005
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    405

    Default

    There have been many great comments in this thread. I hope you all have emailed them to USEF Board and Committee members.

    It is my confirmed view (and one I have expressed in email messages to the USEF Dressage Committee and Board Members (some of whom have been kind enough to respond personally) that dressage riders shouldn't have to do ANY repetitive classes to earn points, because "points" and a dressage "class system" will not achieve what I assume (which I must do, because I have seen no memo -- and I'm certain that there is none -- from the Committee or anyone else at USEF clearly setting forth what the "competition standards" idea is supposed to achieve and why this is the best way to achieve it) is the goal of any "competition standards" proposal -- to discourage riders from competing "above their level."

    There has been input on this BB about the "problem" of any dressage rider who may attempt to "ride above his/her level." Please do explain, what is the harm of that anyway (assuming of course that there is no dangerous or abusive riding that can and should be controlled by judges, TDs and show managers)? OK, so it would be better for sport if it weren't happening at all, but . . .

    Are numerous horses at or above 3rd Level being abused or harmed any more than, say, the multitude of school horses or Intro Level horses nationwide whose riders can't (yet) sit still or keep their hands still? More than jumper riders in timed classes performing roll-back turns with truly severe bits? More than sliding-stopping curb bit-wearing reining horses? More than gag bit-wearing event horses being slowed from full gallops before tricky solid jump combinations? More than what those same "problem" riders are doing at home?

    I just don't believe it. Moreover, I don't believe the proponents of "competition standards" can demonstrate that there is a problem in dressage at 3rd Level and above that is so pervasive and severe that it requires the introduction of a huge bureaucracy to track "points" for every USEF dressage rider (as opposed to taking already available measures to deal with horse abusers). Are our 3rd Level and above 1000+ pound dressage horses really such hot-house flowers that they must be protected from their riders so much more than any other type of horse competing in other USEF disciplines? The clear answer is -- NO.



  15. #55
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    Dec. 31, 2002
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    SW USA
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    Default

    I would love for someone to email this thread to the USEF powers that be. I am uncertain how to or I would have. If anyone can they should.



  16. #56
    DressagetoDay Guest

    Default

    What makes anyone on this board think that they do not have some other undisclosed reason for implementing this rule change?? What makes anyone think that they do not know of the existence of the various boards/forums and that they are incapable of responding in a public forum??

    They absolutely could condense most of the questions / problems since most of the people are saying the same things and having the same issues with the "proposed" rule change and post answers to them or assign someone the job.

    If they did not think there would be problems with it why was it brought up at the last minute??

    I cannot imagine being on a committee and having my head so much in the sand that I would not realize that this brilliant idea was going to create havoc among the membership. Since I do not view any of these people as stupid I would assume that they waited until the last minute so nothing or little could be done to stop the changes and it would minimize the repercussions and the resulting work load.

    Obviously, OUR committee members are NOT in touch with the needs of the rank and file of this organization or they just do NOT care. So what are they doing there?? I see complaints about oh God I had to spend 3 hours answering all of these e-mails where MEMBERS complained. DUH, If you come up with a stupid and very controversial issue then expect to have a lot more work to do.

    Ok So why aren't they asking all of the members to vote on this change? It is very apparent that most of the membership is actually quite upset in one form or other by this. If someone has to publish a reminder for everyone to be nice and polite there are clearly some pretty upset people.

    I am upset otherwise I would not be sitting up all hours of the night writing about this!

    Please note WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE OLYMPICS HERE no matter what the committee members might insinuate or state. We are talking local / possibly regional shows NOT the qualifying rounds for the Olympics or even for any other International or even National event.

    Those shows already have qualification systems in place.

    I for one think that this should be voted on by the entire dressage membership before they get to add ANY performance standards at all.

    AND I think very important that since they are so dead set on having this implemented: They should ALL re-qualify! No Grandfathering at all! Want to judge / compete, everyone re-qualifies. After all no one in Germany (our supposed dressage system gods that we must all bow down before and copy), in our lifetimes anyhow, ever got grandfathered in.

    that would certainly put a monkey wrench in the works wouldn't it


    HUMMM Why was that Maybe because they have been doing this for hundreds of years that way. Probably left over from the feudal system where only the upper classes could ride. Knights were all from the wealthy uppers classes and dressage was started as a way of training a knights war horse wasn't it.

    OH yeah Didn't most of the state studs start out as stables of the kings and queens of the various countries.

    And this works for our country why??

    AND this is not an elitist change?? Who are we BSing here???

    Does anyone have any idea how much this is going to cost to implement? Do they even care??

    Much less if anyone takes serious offence to it and decides to sue the USEF over it. Does anyone have any idea the costs to the USEF to litigate this type of issue? Maybe Yankee Lawyer could submit some projected costs? When the USEF has to defend this type of suit what happens then our fees go up yet again?

    I still have yet to see the justification for this change. Who the heck cares if 90% of the people out there competing at 3rd are getting 40's ?? In this country who is at the shows to watch?? Normally only the other competitors, family and possibly some friends are watching anyhow. IN THIS COUNTRY THIS IS A HOBBY FOR MOST PEOPLE, NOT BIG BUSINESS!! In what way does this help our entire dressage community?

    THIS IS NOT like in Europe where half the country shows up to watch and there is coverage on the nightly news. When was the last time anyone heard on the nightly news that say Robert Dover or Lisa Wilcox got dumped off their horses?? OK NEVER. That is because this is clearly NOT Europe. Even wrestlers get more TV play time here than our top dressage riders do!

    Why can't our dressage committee work on that instead???? A plan for more national TV coverage !! What was televised from the dressage part of the WORLD CUP that was held in Las Vegas????????????? I believe the answer was NOTHING!!!!

    I think the things I resent a great deal about this "PROPOSED" (looks like it is done deal to me, they all have too much vested in it to back down now anyhow) rule change is not only the big brother idea (we know what is best for you!!! So we will put rules in place to make sure you follow them) but the insinuation that unless we change to a German system we will not be able to compete on the world stage. This change has NOTHING to do with that at all.

    If the USEF Dressage committee wanted to make us more competitive on the world stage they would be out getting us federal funding. They would have state run equestrian schools. They would have scholarships to the major universities, they would get our sport televised nationally. They would work on making dressage big business in this country too so it paid to be a top trainer or competitor. Then our really good trainers could afford to tell those clients with no talent that they do NOT belong at the FEI levels nor even at 3rd so we would not need this rule change!!

    Furthermore our Dressage judges are there to judge to a standard. They should not really give a darn about what score they hand out. It they cannot stand giving out low scores stop judging! It comes with the territory. Get over it. They are paid, NOT VOLUNTEERS! It might be boring as hell and the people might not belong there, but it is their da** choice NOT someone else's. Personally, do I want to go and make an ass of myself in public? NO but do I think that if other people want to they should be able to YES.

    We can burn the American flag in this country but we cannot compete at 3rd level or above with PERMISSION????????



  17. #57
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    Jul. 10, 2000
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    PNW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derid View Post
    I can remember Axel Steiner judging a show in the Pacific NW where many of the 3rd level competitors, amateurs and professionals alike, were given scores in the 30's and 40's. It was an eye-opener for me. I don't think he was asked back, but my trainer thought his scores were right on the mark.
    Are you referring to the 2003 show at Devonwood in Oregon?



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2000
    Location
    los angeles ca
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    With the system we currently have, we have managed to promote/grow dressage in the US and to allow the creme de la creme to rise to the top and to earn the coveted bronze/silver status in the international arena. Therefore, I see no reason to start installing barriers for dressage competitors in the US. Let's face it, the US is not a tiny, little nation which currently financially supports its competitors adequately, and we certainly don't offer equal access to competitions and training/education opportunities for all members (heck, we don't even have access to see our dressage team at prestigious international events live on TV!). If these new proposed standards are implemented, we are going to discourage many folks from competing, and would be promoting the mindset that dressage is only for the wealthy and elite who can afford exceptional horses. These new proposed restrictions would discourage competitors from showing. I'm afraid of what's next ...... getting rid of the "All Breeds" non-warmblood awards since many of those breeds do not measure up score-wise?



  19. #59
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    Jan. 5, 2008
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    Texas
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    Default

    Do you HAVE to be a USEF member to show?

    Meaning if you don't want points for year end or whatever, just want to go out and show to be judged on how you are coming along at that level... can't you just pay their non-member fee and ride whatever level pleases you?

    I'm quite disappointed in some of Ms. Brown's comments. Not all of us want to go to the Olympics, ya know.



  20. #60
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    Dec. 20, 2007
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    In a snow drift
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Dior View Post
    I completely agree with piaffegirls previous statement. This is a ridiculous complicated rule change with ramifications far beyond the simple passing of as of yet undecided standards. And Ms. Foy's comments were rude. I am sorry that she is tired of seing cowbred ponies in dressage. I am certain that since she has worked sooooo hard for 20 years at her sport that she would like to personally go tell the next hapless amateur that is on a quarterpony that she needs to replace it immediately !!!! I have worked to hard for you to muck up/f***up my damn Olympic discipline. Perhaps the best way down the path to "true & classic dressage" is to license the damn instructors. Not the existing system but an actual academy that they need to "graduate" from. Just getting in could be elitist enough !!! Also I would personally like to attach a bullshit meter to the forehead of all applicants. If your shit meter is activated the majority of your term you are out !!!! If your shit meter is activated only in the presence of a client you are out immediately. If your shit meter is activated in front of a current dressage comittee member you IMMEDIATELY move up to the next level.!!!! They need their energies directed elsewhere...this problem is not the 5000 lb elephant that is in the room.

    PREACH IT SISTAH!

    I think what Ms. Foy-Brown said was probably the bitchiest things I've ever had the unfortunate mistake of reading.

    I, for one didn't start my dressage endeavors due to it being an "Olympic sport." I started it because I admired greatly the workings of the Spanish Riding School!

    Also, if I'm not mistaken, I believe Ms. Foy-Brown does quite a few clinics/training/symposiums/etc. to students who are married to lawyers/doctors/celebrities/presidential hopefuls, does she not? I bet if they read her rantings that they would probably no longer take instruction from her. After all, they married into their money... she worked for 20 years without a break. I wonder just how much more she'd have to work if she no longer was receiving her income from the spouses of the wealthy. Hmm...

    I took it upon myself to look in the USEF members’ directory from 2006. Janet Foy-Brown is not listed at all, but the rest of the DC board is.

    By the way, who the hell voted for them to have their "board seats" anyway? I never got a phone call/email/formal letter or invitation for my vote and opinions.



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