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  1. #41
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    Jan. 4, 2000
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    We don't have a monopoly on the word, but dressage collection and saddle seat collection are not the same.



  2. #42
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    Nov. 1, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post

    I'd also beg to differ about quarterhorses being the most versatile. That title has to be taken by the Thoroughbred. They have been world and olympic class in every sport imaginable.
    You are so right.
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  3. #43
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodeoQueen View Post
    Stolen Silver, apparently you haven't been exposed to the quarter horse - the most versatile horse in the world.

    Most versatile horse in the world? Nah. That would be taken by Arabians, most likely. Never heard of a quarter horse that could do saddleseat

    Most of those bashing saddleseat here have likely never had the privelege of watching a really good one or haven't been able to observe the training of one. There is no abuse involved, or "jacking their front ends", etc. Pretty inflammatory language from people who evidently don't know much about it.

    Let me put it this way...all disciplines have their abuses and poor riding etc...judging all western pleasure or saddleseat or eventing or whatever by one or two examples of abuse is as ridiculous as saying because someone saw a Dressage horse doing rollkur that all dressage is abusive.



  4. #44
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    Mar. 12, 2005
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    It's quite funny that no one is defending the big lick TWH scene isn't it?



  5. #45
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    Dec. 20, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    It's quite funny that no one is defending the big lick TWH scene isn't it?
    Oh god, don't get me started on that!! I love the flat shod stuff though.



  6. #46
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Western South Dakota
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    I think SLC has said it best but here is my .02 worth.

    Some of us have come to Dressage from other disciplines and the most important thing that we have learned is that Dressage is DIFFERENT We don't say that other disciplines are bad. OK once in awhile we see something that stands our hair on end and we may say that is bad, but for the most part we try to be open minded We really do like to see people enjoying what they do with their horses.

    What we don't like is that so many people want to say that ____________(insert chosen discipline here) is the same as Dressage. The truth is that Dressage is not slow reining or slow barrel racing or whatever. Dressage addresses issues that until you do it, you won't (can't) understand. I am talking about bringing a horse up through the levels, not just doing training/first level.

    For us, Dressage has proven to be "better". We do jump quite a bit but it is the Dressage that is our "thing".

    I have to ask, though, why is everyone so into "claiming" Dressage? You will never hear us Dressage people say, "Why of course we use Western Pleasure basics in our training programs"



  7. #47
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    Aug. 28, 2007
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    Massachusetts
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    I have ridden mainly dressage but have also dabbled in hunt seat, some eventing and non-competitive trail riding.
    I can't say that I have a problem with other disciplines, as long as the horses are trained correctly and the use of artificial means to acheive it (big lick, soring, rollkur etc).
    I have to say that saddleseat is my least favorite and probbly the only discipline that I do not want to try.
    Reining on the other hand- that looks like fun!



  8. #48
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Just from me. I have dabbled in Western, tried my hand at polo (disaster!), done some trails, came from an h/j background.

    So really, I have not formally trained in any other discipline but h/j.

    However - and this has happened only with correct training, so maybe it is more broadly applicable - nothing has improved myself or my horse more than the low level dressage we do.
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  9. #49
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    Mar. 23, 2005
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Dressage simply means "training" - or have we forgotten that?

    The fundamentals of dressage simply teach a horse to use itself in the most efficient (and pleasant for the rider ) way. Driving from behind, lifting the back to keep those muscles engaged, responsiveness...these are beneficial to any equine athlete.

    Dressage does address issues that you won't see addressed in other disciplines if they aren't being taught with correct fundamentals. That's the whole idea behind using dressage to build those fundamentals, regardless of discipline.

    Yes, a world champ WP horse and a winning GP dressage horse look - and are "finished" - completely differently. But both [should] have the same fundamentals. That's the point.

    Maybe the problem is that dressage people claim those fundamentals as their own. I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find a dressage person (or any other knowledgeable rider) who didn't defined roundness, suppleness, throughness, etc as being "dressage principles," when honestly they are just principles of any discipline ridden (or driven ) well. So, tell you what: as soon as the dressage world stops defining those things as being dressage, I'll stop saying I use dressage basics when training for any discipline. Until then, if I want to give an honest, understandable explanation of my training technique, I'm going to have to say that I start every horse with dressage.

    ETA: Rugged Lark's sire was a TB - so I say Ted is right!
    Proud member of the EDRF



  10. #50
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    Mar. 2, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by vestito View Post
    Clean changes, unlike so many hunters I see at the shows who go half way around the ring, cross cantering.
    I laugh and appreciate the hunter "change" comment. I agree, far too many hunters cross canter and pull into thier changes. However a GOOD hunter, that jumps well, off his hindend isn't going to being crossing cantering or popping out heavy changes. I know my trainer would prefer my horse to cross canter, unbalanced, but rocked back over pulling down and falling on his forehand into a change. He was taught "bend to the inside kick with the outside" to change, but that's not a proper change. His change will never be as fabulous as his big brothers (an I1 horse) but his big brother wouldn't be half as fabulous over a fence. (His big "brother" is my mom's I1 horse, thier not related by blood. ) A good change can be done on a straight line, without all this over bending and pulling seen (more) in the lower level hunters.

    A funny story told to me by mom's friend (a dressage trainer, who really knows her stuff, but not so much about other disciplines). We were talking about one who's needs a new home, as a hunter. However this horse doesn't have a change. It's a wobbly, pully, unbalanced attempt at a change that results in one a couple strides after asked. Her response was "well who cares, he can be a hunter!". Chances are, if his change is that bad his jumps will reflect it.



  11. #51
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    Dec. 20, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoDQhere View Post
    Some of us have come to Dressage from other disciplines and the most important thing that we have learned is that Dressage is DIFFERENT We don't say that other disciplines are bad. OK once in awhile we see something that stands our hair on end and we may say that is bad, but for the most part we try to be open minded We really do like to see people enjoying what they do with their horses.

    What we don't like is that so many people want to say that ____________(insert chosen discipline here) is the same as Dressage. The truth is that Dressage is not slow reining or slow barrel racing or whatever. Dressage addresses issues that until you do it, you won't (can't) understand. I am talking about bringing a horse up through the levels, not just doing training/first level.
    Dressage is different? Everything is different! Cutting is different from reining. Reining is different from barrel racing. I don't think anyone is saying that all the disciplines are the same, just that they have found it helpful to incorporate dressage principles into their work. Why is it a problem that other people should benefit from dressage, even if they are not 100% devoted to it in mind, body and spirit? Is dressage like modern art, where if an outsider tries to talk about it we just pat them on the shoulder and tell them, "There, there, you just don't understand"?
    For us, Dressage has proven to be "better". We do jump quite a bit but it is the Dressage that is our "thing".
    Dressage is better? I don't feel this way at all. I don't hold dressage up on a pedestal. I don't think it is a magickal way of communing with equus, and I don't think it is like dancing with faeries. But it is a damn good way of training a horse! (Sure beats Parelli... ) There's no need to be resentful that dressage is so inclusive. It is a good thing!



  12. #52
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    Oct. 26, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier06 View Post
    I laugh and appreciate the hunter "change" comment. I agree, far too many hunters cross canter and pull into thier changes. However a GOOD hunter, that jumps well, off his hindend isn't going to being crossing cantering or popping out heavy changes. However this horse doesn't have a change. It's a wobbly, pully, unbalanced attempt at a change that results in one a couple strides after asked. Her response was "well who cares, he can be a hunter!". Chances are, if his change is that bad his jumps will reflect it.
    Actually, a hunter with a bad lead change (or only half of one ) will NOT sell well and will NOT pin except in very low levels/little competition. My older horse (who was "schooling first/second level"--I have no idea levels of what because it certainly wasn't dressage ) flat-out lost classes due to his lack of a clean lead change. Once that was installed (via dressage), he would hold his own in the ribbons.
    "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."



  13. #53
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    Jun. 28, 2007
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    Default Endurance

    Here is my third/fourth level dressage horse competing in LD Endurance. He is only trained in the arena and hacking on trails, not endurance trained, but he still came in 25th out of 47 starters! Says a lot about dressage, doesn't it!?

    http://s228.photobucket.com/albums/ee203/Atheta21/



  14. #54
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    May. 9, 2007
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    Boerne, Texas
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    For versatility try a mule! Lots of fun. The shows are fun and we used to try for all around not just w. pleasure etc. Rail classes, equitation, games, put to cart., jumping..it was fun. I will say when we started dressage with our mule in preparation for eventing...she won 4H state western pleasure for several years. It improved her movement so much! DRessage is good for all disciplines!



  15. #55
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    Jul. 29, 2005
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    I should know better than to get involved in a thread like this

    I always thought there was one correct definition for collection. Because the vast majority of the equestrian population misuses the definition to mean slow/frame/whatever doesn't mean there are several definitions.

    I feel I have the right to claim my fundamentals as dressage-like After all, I've taken dressage lessons, watched countless videos, read books and articles and have gone to dressage shows. And I train and show - get this - western pleasure horses :0

    The breed of horse I show does do saddleseat, although it's not my forte. I have worked at a ss barn and have been to all the top shows of this breed. There are very few horses that can do the discipline ideally. The horses that are not athletic enough to do it the right way are taught to "get a pretty front end" by picking them up in the bridle and hollowing their backs. Some who see a pretty front end forget the rest of the horse and ooh and aah. It's a big, well known problem in this breed, though many are trying to change it at this time. It's not typically done because a trainer doesn't know better, rather it's done to give a horse with perhaps no other career option a reason to hang in there. Stay tuned.

    The discipline I don't really get, and I'm sorry, is the hack classes at the h/j shows. I've seen videos of some of the big shows and most of the horses appear to be naturally good movers, but are ridden very forward to get the "see, mine is tracking up" look without actually driving through the hocks and up over the topline. It's peculiar to me to see all of that good energy go forward and be gone!

    I go to a lot of endurance rides (though can't consider myself an "endurance rider" as I've only done about a half-dozen 25s). I do it just for fun because my parents are really into it and it's fun family time (though they leave me in the dust with their 50s and 100s). I have to say the endurance crowd is a tough one! Sure, there are a few horses (usually the top ones at the big rides) who have some great basics, but most are brave, competitive horsepersons who are in it for the thrill, and the hotter and the wilder the horse, the more he may be capable of finishing "fit to continue"



  16. #56
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    Apr. 6, 2006
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    Plainview, MN
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    The KWPN for some reason only known to themselves has just ruled that a stallion must be considered dressage or jumper, not both and crossing between the two books is not encouraged. Bizarre. It is widely said that dressage horses regularly need an infusion of jumping blood to keep the power in the quarters.
    Wrong. Specialization in the KWPN has been done because it is reckognized the dressage horses, jumpers (and hunters too, here in NA there is a hunter division as well) have different demands in their sport and different things that will make them best for that sport. Any breeder is more than welcome to cross between any of the KWPN books, including the Gelders and harness Horse book as well, and the KWPN will recommend a breeding direction based ont he foals pedigree, but that can be chnged at the keuring when the foal is presented and the jury and owners confer about it. So the reason is known and the breeder is free to cross breed between 5 different types as they please.

    And for anyone who has any questions about saddle seat riding please feel free to ask. I admire all good riding, but saddle seat is my favorite seat to ride, it should be a graceful and minimalist way to ride (lower legs are off the horse, not constantly squeezing/spurring, hands should be light, its about staying out of the horses way and letting him perform).



  17. #57
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    Dec. 20, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showbizz View Post
    I always thought there was one correct definition for collection. Because the vast majority of the equestrian population misuses the definition to mean slow/frame/whatever doesn't mean there are several definitions.
    Maybe WE are the ones who are misusing the term?
    The breed of horse I show does do saddleseat, although it's not my forte. I have worked at a ss barn and have been to all the top shows of this breed. There are very few horses that can do the discipline ideally. The horses that are not athletic enough to do it the right way are taught to "get a pretty front end" by picking them up in the bridle and hollowing their backs. Some who see a pretty front end forget the rest of the horse and ooh and aah. It's a big, well known problem in this breed, though many are trying to change it at this time. It's not typically done because a trainer doesn't know better, rather it's done to give a horse with perhaps no other career option a reason to hang in there. Stay tuned.
    Yup, top saddleseat horses are a rare find. It's relatively easy to get the front-end action, but that's only scratching the surface. The hind-end is what is really important. Trailing hocks are a huge no-no, and you're absolutely right that lesser horses will hollow their backs to compensate for their weaknesses.



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