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  1. #21
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    Interesting exercise. I wonder if it could be done in a variation to help the trot too?
    ~Amy~ TrakehNERD clique
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  2. #22
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    look here you not the only one with the problem as its a common problem
    most people do find a horse is stiff one sided becuase they often ride how they write you have to give as in you give then the horse becomes even
    look here have explained using the half stride to help balance your horse in each transition you do- as it collects the horse up giving him clear signals something going to change
    http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=126952



  3. #23
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    Default EEEEE

    Oh...god....this comes under the heading of 'Life in the Key of EEEEEEEEE!'

    We started calling them 'e-points' because there was one instructor we saw years ago who would yell, eeeeEEEE-No! when she saw this sort of thing going on. We loved her but oh god did we love that EEEEEEE even more. I don't think she realized she was doing it...

    DON'T DO THIS!!!! PLEEASE don't leg yield like that - wait til you have help unless you can get this connection forward and solid, and then do leg yields with the horse properly framed in the aids - which you can ONLY do if you have a solid connection. .

    The statement 'you don't want to move his haunches' is correct - but only partly.

    To straighten a horse, you NEVER push the hauches around to line up with the front end. Instead, you move the SHOULDERS. That's critical to straightening work. How do you move shoulders? The answer is - '
    well, how do you do a circle?' Doesn't how you do a circle tell you how you control shoulders...because 'the outside rein draws the circle line' (and no, not always daintily, especially when it's been underused for a long time).

    ----example ------
    Years ago we were at a clinic in which a horse was going all around the ring - long sides on the straight, as well as around the corners (which are parts of circles), the hind quarters were ALWAYS in off the track. The rider was trying to straighten the horse by putting her INSIDE leg way, way back, and pushing the haunches OUT - back to the track. The clinician, Kay Meredith, made it VERY clear - this is incorrect. The rule is always - 'oppose the haunches with the shoulders' and this never changes. Having had a lot of dressage lessons, I was completely confused that anyone would ever even TRY to do that (and this person was an instructor teaching ALOT of local riders!!!) - and I have to say I was stunned by the debates here and the 'but WHY' questions on this issue. As my SO whispered at the clinic...'Oh SH**!'

    People just resist this idea for some reason I can't exactly understand. Anyhow, Kay painstakingly explained to the person that they just can't get decent results that way, and the horse, when ridden correctly, using the outside rein to bring the shoulders into line, was VERY happy to go straight.
    -----------------

    However, you do, in a very limited and careful way, move the haunches by putting your outside leg further back and pushing ONLY the haunches over. This is a turn on the haunches. This however is NOT something you do to straighten a crooked horse - again, you move the shoulders to straighten your horse. OCCASIONALLY, when circling, you have to 'guard' the haunches on the outside with your outside leg a little back of the girth, just to keep your horse from having his haunches fly out on turns like the back of a fire truck!

    A fire truck actually has a guy in the back that steers the BACK of the fire truck - the dressage riders outside leg behind the girth OCCASIONALLY has to perform this function.

    The leg yield is NOT moving the haunches in the same sense as a turn on the haunches,, and the rider's leg is NOT taken way back - it should ideally be right at the girth, aiding the horse in time with his stride, in response to which, the horse moves his hind leg over, under himself, and goes sideways, JUST A LITTLE BIT, JUST A STRIDE AT A TIME, and you are sitting up there with your outside rein WORKING OVERTIME trying to keep him all straight and his shoulders NOT popping out and that may seem like a HECK OF A LOT of outside rein!!! Especially if you ALREADY have a fundamental issue of not using it enough...then the leg yield becomes not a leg yield, but an opening up of the old kimono, as they say in the corporate world!!!!

    Instead of a nice straight controlled little balanced side step, you get your horse holding up a SIGN that says, 'Mommy does not use her outside rein! Over here! Look at me! See my shoulder flying out???!!!'

    The leg yield is NOT about moving haunches. It is about 'pressing the horse's hind legs inward'. The fact that the horse side steps is almost completely immaterial!

    the key movement that teaches the horse what 'leg aid' means - it means to get his legs under him. Fortunately it's also a very nice suppling exercise - BECAUSE it teaches the horse to put his legs under him it supples his hind legs! Not that the horse so much swings his legs forward up under him, but in towards the centerline of his own body.

    The problems you're having are typical of someone who works on their own alot.

    The 'wiggle' thing is not good - I'd advise you to stop leg yielding and lateral work til you get someone to give you a framework and some guidance.

    What you have is incorrect. Sorry. And it's VERY important that it be corrected. Your horse isn't going to 'put it together' in time - you need to stop with the leg yielding, and get him forward into a connection with the bridle.

    What you are describing PROVES you do not have a sound connection on the foreward. No if's and's or but's - this does not happen if you are schooling off a correct, forward connection.

    If you are schooling off a forwward, correct connection, you practically have to STRUGGLE to get your horse to leg yield even one tiny step over, and you do it in a rhtthm that is exactly the same as your other work, with a VERY TINY amount of movement to the side (or a very tiny angle, if you're doing it along the wall, which is usually harder for riders new to this work to maintain a rhythm, and the RHYTHM IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN GOING SIDEWAYS!!!! EEEEEEEEEE!!!!

    Teaching a horse to go sideways from your leg pressure is NOT what a leg yield is about. I know that sounds contradictory, but it's the truth, and until you have a REAL connection in the bridle, your horse WILL be wiggly.

    I've watched for YEARS as people who work alot on their own delightedly show me how 'goosey' their horse is off their leg, and how quickly the horse runs to one side when they use one leg way back on the horse's side - I know people who have gotten their horses so goosey off their leg that another rider can't even get on the horse and walk it down the long side of the ring on a loose rein! The horse is wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor!

    I recall years ago we went to see a really super European dressage trainer - sorry I don't recall who he was. But this very eager home schooled rider came into the ring and proceeded to have her horse just go all over the ring sideways....he watched for quite some time, silently, and then said very quietly, in a polite voice, 'Do you work by yourself alot?' DEAD silence among the railbirds, LOL.

    I can recall with great embarrassment a girl riding her mom's horse, explaining to me how 'highly trained' the horse was, that it went sideways all the time, and how she was 'learning to ride such a highly trained horse'. She was 'learning to ride the highly trained horse' by holding her leg from the knee down, out in the air, because the horse was taught to be so wierd and goosey off her leg, instead of going forward normally*.

    Imagine the predicament, sitting there yelling, 'Well bless your HEART!' when you know the training of the horse is totally wrong, there's no connection with the bit, and that the whole dang thing has to be redone and fixed before the poor girl can EVER show the horse...dear god...LOL....repeat after me.....'WELL BLESS YOUR HEART!'

    *When your horse is 'framed by the aids', he moves forward willingly into the bridle, and the rider's legs and reins can direct and channel him. If you train your horse to ricochet off your aids like a pinball every time you touch him with the leg or rein, he is not 'on the aids', he is actually 'OFF the aids'. To ride a horse in dressage, he has to live right next to the aids hand in glove - connecting with the bridle, connecting with your leg, which has a conversation with the horse - breathes with the horse, works in harmony with the horse.
    Last edited by slc2; Dec. 29, 2007 at 08:56 AM.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetempies View Post
    Then alternate days with forward and lateral work.
    I wanted to add to this - even on days when you work on some lateral work, DON'T until you (re) establish forward first
    ______________________________
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  5. #25
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    slc, as I said before, I am NOT having the problem during leg yields and I am NOT asking for leg yields that go side ways, I am asking for a YIELD, then we go straight, then a couple of strides of YIELD, then straight. The way I read what you wrote was that I was asking all of the way across the arena with a dramatic sideways motion. NOT the case. Also, I NEVER said I was correcting the shoulder bulge with movement of the haunches. I have been trying to move the shoulders to straighten him, I never said anything about moving the haunches to straighten. I SAID we have been working on turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches... at a completely separate time. I am NOT getting dramatic leg crossing when he yields, nor am I trying to.

    I am not trying to argue or deny help, I just want it to be clear what is going on and it is my fault for not being clear right off of the bat. He is popping his shoulder when I am working in at a regular trot, not doing anything else but circling. It happens at a certain point in the arena regularly and sometimes at other points of the arena, but with much less frequency. The shoulder popping is COMPLETELY separate from the yielding other than the fact that he starting to do it around the same time I started teaching him to yield to my leg. I was asking if there were other ways to straighten him in ADDITION to trying to move the shoulders. I keep firm contact with my outside rein but he is evading.
    ~Amy~ TrakehNERD clique
    *Bugs 5/86-3/10 OTTB Mare* RIP lovely Lady, I miss you
    *Frodo '03 Anglo Trakehner Gelding*
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  6. #26
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    I understand that, it doesn't matter.



  7. #27
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    counterflexion is your friend.




  8. #28
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    getting a connection is your friend before counter flexion is your friend



  9. #29
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    dont do circles till you have the horse striaght forwards and balanced hes young
    its the same thing if you lunging a young horse to much on the circle is adding stresses and starins on undeveloped legs

    same to with any unfit horse-- large large llarge if no areana then mark out an area in a field with cones or tyres to represent corners 60x80 at least and work the horse in shortening and lenghtening strides so he learns to shift his weight from hind leg to other hind and work him butt to poll keeping his hocks underneath him --



  10. #30
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    However, you do, in a very limited and careful way, move the haunches by putting your outside leg further back and pushing ONLY the haunches over. This is a turn on the haunches.
    nope



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    getting a connection is your friend before counter flexion is your friend
    Actually, slc2, this is what counterflexion does. It is an exercise that helps to straighten the horse and improves the connection while softening the poll and improving balance. True flexion to counter flexion to straightness is a great exercise if done in a flowing way. Having actually read through Bugs-n-Frodo's posts, I think this will exercise will help her catch/manage her horse's bulging shoulder better and help prevent the horse from resorting to this evasion through training. He'll 'get' the exercise.


    J.



  12. #32
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    Default Just a thought...

    Bugs...double-check what is happening with YOUR outside shoulder whenever he does this. Many times the horse pops his shoulder because the rider is popping THEIR shoulder or the weight aids are not quite correct. I went through this same thing very briefly with my young horse, too. It was clear that he was understanding the weight/seat aids so well that when I was not ABSOLUTELY correct he would do EXACTLY what I was inadvertently telling him to do. Easy to fix. I have also known another horse that would pop his shoulder whenever I had too much weight in the inside stirrup, and fall in a bit through the shoulder if too much weight in the outside stirrup. So also check the weight distribution in your irons. If nothing else, at least it might rule out a few more things...



  13. #33
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    I actually think that counterflexion is the RIDERS friend because it teaches them what it means to have effective outside aids.

    Regarding the riders outside leg, that leg should always be sure that the haunches are not drifting out or pushing on it. But it does not push the haunches in, unless asking for travers. It's a fine line but important.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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  14. #34
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    [quote=EqTrainer;2900629]I actually think that counterflexion is the RIDERS friend because it teaches them what it means to have effective outside aids. quote]

    Yes, which is why I think it'll help the rider initiating this thread.



  15. #35
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    I think if the horse isn't connected to the bit, you can;t ride any counter flexion.



  16. #36
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    Actually slc2, sometimes counterflexion can be a good way to get a horse on the bit when you have the bulging/hollowing problem. it is a good suppling exercise for young horses and helps them learn straightness. like J-Lu eloquetly stated...

    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    Actually, slc2, this is what counterflexion does. It is an exercise that helps to straighten the horse and improves the connection while softening the poll and improving balance. True flexion to counter flexion to straightness is a great exercise if done in a flowing way. Having actually read through Bugs-n-Frodo's posts, I think this will exercise will help her catch/manage her horse's bulging shoulder better and help prevent the horse from resorting to this evasion through training. He'll 'get' the exercise.



  17. #37
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    i still don't agree with you. you can't get a horse 'on the bit' by counter flexing unless that basic connection is there first....unless 'on the bit' means getting the horse to 'assume the position'.



  18. #38
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    i still don't agree with you. you can't get a horse 'on the bit' by counter flexing unless that basic connection is there first....unless 'on the bit' means getting the horse to 'assume the position'.

    Forget ' getting the horse on the bit ' ( sigh) for a second and just think about the connection and the rider discovering the importance of the outside aids and developing an understanding of the inside leg to outside rein principle.


    The use of counterflexion for the issues raised here makes perfect sense. It can be a real eye opener for the rider. It has many benefits including showing the rider she can get off the inside rein and the world won't end, showing the rider the importance of the outside aids (includng no more popping shoulder), and, as you then add in the bend from the inside leg to outside rein on the circle, and go from true flexion to counter flexion and then back again, and so on, often there can be a 'lightbulb moment'. It's the type of exercise that a smart trainer will employ with success.



  19. #39
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    No slc2, counterflexing is not about cranking the horse's head to the outside. If the horse is bulging the shoulder out/hollowing to the inside then the horse is not on the bit. in counter flexing the rider gets the horse to straighten their bodies using their legs and their seat to get the horse to change bend to the outside (just like in an inside bend). i think that in many cases what causes the bulging to happen is the horse is not wanting to carry with their inside hind leg. when you counterflex the horse has to carry with that leg.



  20. #40
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    i think that in many cases what causes the bulging to happen is the horse is not wanting to carry with their inside hind leg. when you counterflex the horse has to carry with that leg.
    I think of it differently. I don't think counterflexion helps the horse to carry with the inside leg. That's not the purpose. If anything it makes it easier for the horse to NOT carry with the inside leg. Counterbend, different from counterflexion, actually helps to engage the outside hind if it tends to trail out. You have to pick the right exercise for the issue at hand.



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