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  1. #41
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    Mar. 25, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatOnLap View Post
    I probably wouldn't advertise that.

    I liked Equibrit's definition of "On the bit".
    There's an old Booger cartoonist named LaVieEnBoog who would do a smashing cartoon of that if she lurks here.
    We need to get the stick art artists up here to diagram out what is really meant by this.



  2. #42
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    Jan. 30, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoot&Tick View Post
    Do you ever use a surcingle, lunge with the bit, tie their head around.
    Actually this is a fair question after what Coby van Baalen's barn is about.

    Hoot, maybe this will help, I'm choosing videos over books so you can "see":

    (1) A Matter of Trust Vol. I
    Volume I covers the basic guidelines for equine behavior, movement,
    gaits, physical and mental characteristics of the horse as well as the
    training plan for the first year. The first half looks at the horse, the
    rider, timing of the aids, movement and correct use of seat and aids.
    The second half gives a detailed lesson plan for establishing a solid
    foundation.
    115 minutes VHS or 230 minutes DVD
    http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

    (2) A Matter of Trust Vol. II
    Volume II introduces collection, correct frame, rythm, tempo, and self
    carriage. The video uses slow motion close-ups and detailed descriptions of movements with accompanying graphics.
    60 minutes VHS or 175 minutes DVD
    http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

    Or check out anything Walter Zettl has written. Good luck and happy new year to you.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct. 17, 2006
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    USA
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    84

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    Hmm, it does help to read the whole post/reply, doesn't it.
    Sic em, Charlie!



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
    Posts
    213

    Smile

    ((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

    Please tell me your joking...

    You have to ask?????



  5. #45
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    Oct. 23, 2007
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    Area V111
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    How do dressage riders get their horses heads tucked in and their necks arched?

    The awnser is that they don't THINK about their horses head.

    They start with teaching the horse to maintain a steady rythm in his gaits. They teah the horse to relax his muscles. They teach the horse to strectch down on his own. They teach the horse to move streched and freely. They teach the horse to use both sides of his body evenly. They teach the horse to rock back onto his hindquarters. They teach the horse to reach his hind legs farther and farther under himself. They teach him to rock farther and farther back on his hindquarters. They teach him to stay relaxed and supple but to pull his body together like a coiled spring. They teach him to understand his own body so that he can move in all directions.

    And as the horse learns all those things he becomes lighter on his forehand, his neck comes up out of his shouder and since he is relaxed and supple, his head loosens to where it is quite comfortable which happens to be just in front of the vertical.

    Dressage is about teaching the horse to be a willing partner and making him an athlete. A willing partner is one who trys to do the right thing and WANTs to please you.

    You are not going to make a willing partner by forcing the horse into anything.
    Team Awesome fo sho!



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct. 17, 2006
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    USA
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    84

    Red face

    Yes I did, I had a bit of a slow moment going on, and didn't even read your whole post. May I say that I felt horrendously stupid after reading that?
    Sic em, Charlie!



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2007
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    Triangle Area, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .
    it's not SLC, and nope, not on youtube, and dangit no miracle just thought you'd like to know that it does exist
    http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/photogal...4&gid=1&min=27
    here's a link to the whole gallery
    http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  8. #48
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    Sep. 6, 2007
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    San Diego
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    I guess Klimke was not a dressage person. Side reins/surcingle is a useful tool for training a horse to seek the bit (back to front). It's only a problem if used incorrectly (to tie the head down, to force the horse onto the bit, if used front to back).

    Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .


    She should market her "secret" and make a gabillion dollars!

    If the OP is serious, which I'm still not sure, Klimke does have a good book called: "Basic Training of the Young Horse". It's very informative.



  9. #49
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    Jul. 19, 2001
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    just thought you'd like to know that it does exist
    WHAT exists? Riding a horse set in a frame without tack is cute but it's no better than riding a horse set in a frame with tack. You have to have an elastic connection/ contact to complete the circle of the aids.

    More evidence that people don't 'get ' it.



  10. #50
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    Mar. 1, 2005
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    maryland
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    I think this is a spinoff of a topic Horse Care, in response to When Lungeing, Roundpenning and Groundwork Don't Calm Your Horse Hoot and Tick replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoot&Tick View Post
    You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

    I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

    You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.

    Hoot&Tick: nobody I know of talks about "breaking a horse's face". The kind of people I like to ride with also don't force a headset (which is what I think you might mean?) When everything else is in place in dressage, the head should follow naturally.

    Can you explain how tightly restraining the horse's head during pre-ride roundpen work calms a horse? What is the reason for this working?



  11. #51
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    Mar. 27, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post
    Unfortunately,if you take the OP seriously, you are in grave danger of creating a monster.

    That is what I was about to say.
    Obviously from the other posts this is a old subject with this person.

    Me thinks someone is bored today and trying to light a fire under some DQ butts.

    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  12. #52
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    Jul. 19, 2001
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    True. I was taking it at face value. OOps.



  13. #53
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    Jan. 4, 2000
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    There ya go again egon! If there is any possible way to find something to pick at, you'll find it, LOL!

    No, a skilled trainer CAN use side reins and other training aids when necessary - but he doesn't use them to force his horse into a fake posture.

    As the saying goes, 'Only skilled trainers can use these things correctly, and they don't usually need them'.

    I spent 20 years in one barn, and never saw the draw reins get used by that trainer. Not once. She said she had used them once - ten years before. That's not alot.

    As for side reins, yes, they are, in fact, very often misused, and yes, experienced people do tend to use them more wisely and more beneficially.

    We had a gal at one barn who loudly yelled, 'Look, my horse is in a 4th level frame!' when she longed him with short side reins. His hind legs were trailing along like a daschund's in a slipped disc buggy, and his back was hollowed out like the Little Rascal's horse, ROFLMAO!

    She didn't even KNOW how incorrect it was. Ignorance is bliss, I guess - ha ha! Til she went to a new trainer who told her the truth, then she was REAL pee-oh'd, ROFMLAO!

    S/he now knows better. Like other successful trainers, she uses seat, rein and leg aids, doing very ordinary exercises, no extreme bends or cranking the horse's head around, or tieing his head to the side, to produce that 'dressage look'.

    THAT is the point.

    What people like Hoot and Tick need to learn, is that these side reins, draw reins, surcingles, yadda yadda yadda, do not produce an on the bit horse - the skill of the rider does....and most of the time that rider does that using very, very simple equipment.

    And yes, one can ALSO do it wrong with just a plain snaffle bit, too!

    What people are mixed up about is they think that dressage is produced by artificial means - extended trot with roller chains, piaffe with a whip on the legs, the head posture by pulling back and forth on the reins.

    It just doesn't work.

    A trainer I worked with said to a Young Rider after she got a blue ribbon with her pony at a little show, by teaching her pony to hold its head in by ying-yangin' on the reins, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time'. She further said, 'You can fool some people who don't know, you'll never fool anyone that understands how it's supposed to be done'.

    Even if someone thinks it looks pretty, tieing the horses head to one side and teaching him to hold his head in like a trick isn't dressage. It doesn't score well, and it doesn't serve as a sound basis for more advanced training.

    Another poster ran over here too to tell us just how stubborn Hoot and Tick is, and that she's been told 'MANY TIMES' that this just isn't how a dressage horse is developed.

    I smell troll - a pair of trolls, in fact, we've got bigger fish to fry today than to get all up in arms about a couple of people who like to pick at eachother on the internet. As if that's something new these two invented.

    I have no sympathy for people who don't want to learn - but I have even LESS sympathy for people who loudly go around informing everyone else that that's the case.



  14. #54
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by MayS View Post
    Hoot&Tick: nobody I know of talks about "breaking a horse's face".
    To be fair, it IS a Western term - "Get the horse broke in the face", meaning get him to give to the SLIGHTEST hint of contact. For those folks, it IS desirable, given their disciplines. For the rest of us, it's not desirable.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  15. #55
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    The best way I know of to get a horse 'broke in the face' is to hit it REALLY hard in the face with a 2x4!!!



  16. #56
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    Sep. 6, 2007
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    San Diego
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post




    Another poster ran over here too to tell us just how stubborn Hoot and Tick is, and that she's been told 'MANY TIMES' that this just isn't how a dressage horse is developed.

    I smell troll - a pair of trolls, in fact, we've got bigger fish to fry today than to get all up in arms about a couple of people who like to pick at eachother on the internet. As if that's something new these two invented.
    Another Round is a troll? Is that who you're referring to? Where'd she run over from? The Litterbox?

    I don't think either are trolls. H&T just has an unfortunate way of phrasing her posts. LOL.



  17. #57
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    Jul. 14, 2003
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    MA
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    Personally, I don't care what western trainers do or what they call it. Whatever it is, dressage trainers don't do it. Concepts are completely different. Terminology is completely different.

    So OP, forget about it. If you want to learn dressage and not just carry on an internet flame war--then read a book, learn the concepts, get a trainer, whatever.

    The rest of you, don't feed the trolls.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  18. #58
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    Oct. 6, 2004
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    You are asking the wrong people for advice. We don't use tie downs to force our horses to put their noses on the ground. This is why I now hate to see QH shows. I grew up with QHs at my first barn and loved how they went with a natural head set.....not anymore!

    I think all the trainers that do this to their horses need to come to my house and rig up my 17.1 1500 WB tank and they will find out what broke in the face is all about!
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart



  19. #59
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Spotsylvania, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomoreusernames View Post
    ((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

    Please tell me your joking...

    You have to ask?????
    Yup, that is kind of scarry
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  20. #60
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    Oct. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    You are asking the wrong people for advice. We don't use tie downs to force our horses to put their noses on the ground. This is why I now hate to see QH shows. I grew up with QHs at my first barn and loved how they went with a natural head set.....not anymore!

    I think all the trainers that do this to their horses need to come to my house and rig up my 17.1 1500 WB tank and they will find out what broke in the face is all about!
    I have pretty much the same experience... just substitute the 17.1 WB for my old 16.1 TB. I still remember my first few months on that horse... trying to learn how to correctly bring a horse onto the aids after having my QH mare. I was going around and around, circles...straight lines...serpentines with said TB's head straight up (because I was bugging him with my hands trying to place his head). Finally in one short side of a serpentine I happened to ride him deeper into the corner and soften my hands... He came under himself and his head came down. My trainer yells "see... now *that* is "on the bit"". ah hah... lightbulb turns on



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