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  1. #21
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    i think what h&t is describing is the western equivalent of rollkur.
    I used to board at a WP barn and have seen it practiced, I personally am not a fan since most western horses travel behind the verticle evading the bit rather than accepting contact.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
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  2. #22
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    Well, I'm not trying to defend Hoof here, but I think some people are getting up in arms over the term "broke in the face" without considering what that means and getting emotional about it. We often say a horse is "broke" to ride or "green broke" and nobody (well, at least people I know) don't get upset over the term or consider it barbaric. I consider "broke in the face" simply another discipline's term for getting the horse to yield to the bit and "keep their head down." It doesn't necessarily mean that this term equates bad horsemanship or use of cruel methods - although it very well could be. Forget how the individual words are put together and evaluate the term based on what it means (and not what picture it conjures up in your head.)



  3. #23
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    I think some people are getting up in arms over the term "broke in the face" without considering what that means and getting emotional about it.
    I think H&T described what she meant very well. It seems, from her mouth, that 'grabbing' a horse's face and pulling it around, or tying it down, or tying it to the side is a style of discipline meant to teach a horse a lesson about behaviour, and about headset. You can re-word it, if you like, but I think H&T's words should speak for themselves, and are not at all as simplistic or thoughtful as you have re-interpreted it. Tieing a horse's head around isn't what you are describing, and she knows this.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    Dressage people who have any understanding of dressage at all, don't use ANYTHING to 'get the horse on the bit'.

    Nothing. Nada. Not side reins, draw reins, martingales, nothing.


    I respect and agree with pretty much everything you said, but this statement is just way over the top. You can't just throw such a broad and over-generalized statement like that out there that is obviously SO untrue and not get some backlash. I know dozens of top dressage riders in several different countries that use these things (side reins, long reins, draw reins, martingales, etc) with great success. If you use these things as training tools then it doesn't make you less of a dressage rider. If you use these things to achieve or force a certain frame, then you are probably using them incorrectly. Using these things is not inherently incorrect dressage riding but how one uses them can make a difference.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
    i think what h&t is describing is the western equivalent of rollkur.
    I used to board at a WP barn and have seen it practiced, I personally am not a fan since most western horses travel behind the verticle evading the bit rather than accepting contact.

    You summed it up much better than I could. I do have personal experience with horses trained using the techniques she describes. All were afraid of the bit and resented being asked to flex or yield. Frankly, I now use those techniques as a measure of 'trainers'--those who practice it are automatically off my list.
    ---------------------------



  6. #26
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    Dressage people who have any understanding of dressage at all, don't use ANYTHING to 'get the horse on the bit'.

    Nothing. Nada. Not side reins, draw reins, martingales, nothing.
    I guess Klimke was not a dressage person. Side reins/surcingle is a useful tool for training a horse to seek the bit (back to front). It's only a problem if used incorrectly (to tie the head down, to force the horse onto the bit, if used front to back).

    Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .



  7. #27
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    Here's a novel idea. Why don't you do what your friends are doing and take lessons too? That way, you will learn what to do and why we do it. You will learn that "on the bit" is not about the horse's head, but about engagement from behind. It doesn't happen overnight. Tying your horse's head down never achieves anything except a tense and sometimes pissed off horse. It only teaches them to resent you.

    If you resented someone, would you want to put forth your best effort to please them? Think about it.



  8. #28
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    "broke in the face" is western jargon
    "on the bit" is dressage jargon.

    If your dressage horse was truly "on" the bit, he'd pull you over his head.
    The jargon means submissive and attentive to the aides while in self carriage.

    "Broke in the face" is exactly that. In western equitation, ideally the aides are as light as possible, so as to be practically invisible. In western pleasure, the horse is expected to carry himself and be very obedient and appear effortless. Sound familiar to some dressage riders?

    The way of going may be somewhat different, but the terms are equivalent, if highly idiosyncratic.

    Those who truly understand dressage by having ridden and trained it, will know there are many many ways to achieve this. There is a tried and true method of achieving it through classical training scales. However, even the most classical trainers will sometimes recommend the use of side reins, long reins, surcingles and longeing.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



  9. #29
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    Place the bit on the floor.
    Place horse on top.

    Voy la - horse on the bit.

    That should suffice for you!



  10. #30
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    With my youngsters, I don't worry too much about where their head is, and I certainly do not do anything to force it into place. My primary focus is on getting them forward and relaxed. Once you have got them forward and supple through the back, they tend to naturally want to be round through the topline. The goal is to get them where they are carrying themselves and respond to the lightest of aids.
    Amen Vern!!!
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  11. #31
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    "on the bit" is dressage jargon.
    I LOATH that term......... if its ever used around here, someone gets a smack in the back of the head.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  12. #32
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    'on the aids ' is a better description



  13. #33
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    The thread where this "debate" started:
    http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=127448

    "Broke in the face" is indeed a Western term. Those who said the difference between Western ridden horses and Dressage ridden horses was right - the amount of contact on the D horse would pull a W rider over his head.

    It IS desirable for the Western horse to be so "broke" in his face that he needs milligrams of pressure from a looped rein to to what he's asked, and most of his cues come purely from seat aids, nothing else. To have a Dressage horse like that would mean a lot of dressage couldn't be done in the manner in which it's required. Western folks think their horses are impulsive and engaged and carrying themselves, and the REALLY good ones can be. But the degree to which they are is NOTHING like what's required of upper level Dressage horses, and that higher degree requires more contact. Dressage horses are soft in the jaw, not "broke in the face". They accept the contact required and don't pull against it.

    Now, that all said, I'll stand by what most folks on the other thread said - no, you don't "grab the horse's face" with side lines and tie his head to the saddle or between his legs and work him until he submits. I don't care if it's Western or English riding, I don't care who does it, it's not the best thing to do.
    ______________________________
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  14. #34
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    If getting my horse "broke in the face" was my objective, it seems like the best way to go about it would be to whack it across the forehead with a two by four. The harder you whack, the broker it gets. Voila.

    I disagree with the people who say that people who know what they are doing NEVER ride in side reins and the like, as I have seen skilled riders on both sides of the Atlantic ride in them, and I regularly see professional bereiters use them here in Germany. However, the key point here is that these pros REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. For someone who is just learning, use of these artificial aids will obscure the feel. You need the feel first, THEN after a lot of practice you can use feel first and the artificial aids second to tweak small aspects of your overall ride. I would certainly not use artificial aids without the supervision of a professional if I were the OP.

    For the OP, there's really nothing anyone can type in a box that will teach you this. If you really want to learn, save up some cash for lessons, and post a post asking about good trainers in your area.



  15. #35
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    ((We often say a horse is "broke" to ride or "green broke" and nobody (well, at least people I know) don't get upset over the term or consider it barbaric.))
    There is nothing to be upset about here.

    Broke in the face is a whole 'nother story.
    Sic em, Charlie!



  16. #36
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    If getting my horse "broke in the face" was my objective, it seems like the best way to go about it would be to whack it across the forehead with a two by four. The harder you whack, the broker it gets. Voila.

    Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventura
    I have never heard the term "broke in the face" before, and I grew up with QHs.
    I probably wouldn't advertise that.

    I liked Equibrit's definition of "On the bit".
    There's an old Booger cartoonist named LaVieEnBoog who would do a smashing cartoon of that if she lurks here.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



  18. #38
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    needing to get a horse broke in the face.
    Could you possibly be talking about getting a horse used to the bit?

    And tying the horses head to the saddle or it's tail (a WP thing) does not result in a "give to the bit". All you are doing with that technique is exhausting the neck, kinda like roll-kur.
    *** 4 More Years ***
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  19. #39
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    ((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

    Please tell me your joking...
    Sic em, Charlie!



  20. #40
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    Unfortunately,if you take the OP seriously, you are in grave danger of creating a monster.



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