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  1. #1
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    Default ONE SHOE FITS ALL

    After viewing this natural balance how to apply the NB shoe that Rick burten kindly posted, i feel its a worthy topic for discussion & hopefully it will be discussed sensible , as a traditionally trained farrier i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion

    http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/misc...ide-Al-1pg.pdf



  2. #2
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    a qualified farrier offers a complete service
    and services to what the horse in question -- needs



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack mac View Post
    as a traditionally trained farrier i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion
    Well, I am a "traditionally trained farrier" too. But I digress...

    Please expound on these alleged "big differences & concepts" between traditional & NB farriers.



  4. #4
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    Jac Mac,
    Have you ever seen a horse shod by someone who has been trained and approved by Gene Ovnecik? Are there any farriers approved by Gene Ovnecik in your region?

    Yes or no is sufficient.
    Katy



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack mac View Post
    ...i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion

    http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/misc...ide-Al-1pg.pdf
    OK, for the non-farrier members of the horse industry (i.e. most of the posters on COTH), will you tell us the hoof preparation and shoe placement guidelines for "traditional farriers"? Otherwise we have nothing to compare the NB method to.



  6. #6
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    What's the point of the thread's title, then? Honest to God, this is starting to get so tiresome.

    i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers
    Give us a little credit, will you? Most of us are very well aware of the different theories and concepts of shoeing horses. Most of us learned these things from our farriers with whom, I daresay, most horse people converse on the topic for oh, let's say a couple of hours every 5-7 weeks as their farrier is working and the topic is "at hand". We ask questions, they provide answers. "What's this I hear, Mike, about these Natural Balance shoes?" a horse owner might ask. Or "You know, Lynn, I think this horse's feet could do with XYZ", the farrier might say. INTERCHANGE AND DISCUSSION. It actually happens in real life, without the histrionics and drama-queen antics of the fundamentalists.

    Which is why, although I usually peek in these threads to maybe hear something new or (if I'm in the mood) giggle at the foolishness, I make decisions with MY FARRIER.
    Click here before you buy.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CookiePony View Post
    OK, for the non-farrier members of the horse industry (i.e. most of the posters on COTH), will you tell us the hoof preparation and shoe placement guidelines for "traditional farriers"? Otherwise we have nothing to compare the NB method to.
    Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot. All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.

    Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.

    Jack has some very enlightening things to say about that style of shoeing. It's my hope that he'll be allowed to talk.
    George



  8. #8
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    Default

    I think it would very useful for Jacko to show us the differences with picture aids...
    I dare say that he would be willing to shoe to the NB protocols to offer as a comparision, awful lot of big words in them instructions.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
    Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot. All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.
    What is a "natural bs zealot"? How about "people who don't know how to properly trim a foot, or fit a shoe, often fit the foot to the shoe.

    Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.
    Not of any interest at all, because it was never in any doubt.

    Jack has some very enlightening things to say about that style of shoeing. It's my hope that he'll be allowed to talk.
    That's fine if he wants to have a real discussion without automatically making widespread conclusions and accusations.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
    Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.

    George
    Newsflash.
    Visit my barefoot blog:
    http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
    "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
    Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot.
    A too broad generalization that forgets the first tenant of farriery. To wit: "It Depends"
    All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.
    Again, you tar with too wide a brush. Please offer substantiation for that comment.

    What I find to be a more common occurence is that those who, for whatever reason(s) do not like, do not understand, are not willing to learn, and are subject to a whole host of personal prejudices when the subject/topic arises, make statements such as that which you just made.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Watts View Post
    Jac Mac,
    Have you ever seen a horse shod by someone who has been trained and approved by Gene Ovnecik? Are there any farriers approved by Gene Ovnecik in your region?

    Yes or no is sufficient.
    Katy
    1 yes 2 they abandoned it 5 years back.



  13. #13
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, in your NB protocolo how to fit a NB shoe it depicts only one diagram, I'm assuming the procedure applies to all four hooves being fitted the same way?, & if this is the case, doesnt any one who advocates for NB find it a little strange for nature to produce four hoofs that would be identical on all four limbs?, when clearly the knee elbow & shoulder joint work in opposed direction to the hock stifle & hip , we know a horse lands heels first in his front limbs, dose he's hind hooves follow the same action? ,& if not wouldn't this necessitate a different shaped & structured hoof ,& wouldn't this all so mean the hind hooves would display a different wear patten then that of the front hooves ?



  14. #14
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    I've never seen a horse shod behind with NB shoes, although I'm sure it is done. One of mine wears them in front because it suits her, the other one does not. Whatever.
    Click here before you buy.



  15. #15
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    Theses are all the things you are taught not to do when traditional trained as the practice of has been proven for more than a century to lead to crippling lameness in the horse, & if you wish to keep a horse sound for the duration of his nature life.When finishing the foot, only remove the flares that are
    obvious from the mid portion of the hoof wall down
    .its called dumping & boxing the foot its been written about for over a hundred years as one of the most destructive things you can do to a hoof capsule performed regular it leads to contraction & eventually side bone (Fig.
    4-A) Undercut the remaining hoof left over the shoe.dumping the toe another crippling destructive affliction condemned by writings for over a hundred years a (Fig.
    4-B) This will give you the appearance of the Naturally
    worn bare foot. This statement is one of the most contemptible as a farrier i have ever read, it imply to purposely set out to not keep the hoof in pristine condition & encourages one to insidiously systematicly & destructively give the hoof a worn out appearance, which in my book is tantamount to abuse



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    I've never seen a horse shod behind with NB shoes, although I'm sure it is done. One of mine wears them in front because it suits her, the other one does not. Whatever.
    so then what your saying in you supporting this theory to be correct, that only your front half of your horse needs to be balanced the other half doesnt apply or matter is that what your saying ?



  17. #17
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    Hey Jack,
    Have you noticed as I have that the proponents of this style are also usually people who turn their noses up at forging?
    George



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack mac View Post
    1 yes 2 they abandoned it 5 years back.
    That would not be possible because the certification process is only about two years old.

    Ar you sure you are not confusing the NB protocols/shoes with the poorly made, unalterable, lousy rip-off copies of NB shoes known as "Cytek shoes"? If so, and that is what has gotten your undies all wadded up, then I can well understand why.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack mac View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, in your NB protocolo how to fit a NB shoe it depicts only one diagram,
    Yes, there is only one diagram and that is of a front hoof. Since shoe fit is dependent on correctly trimming and mapping the hoof, the parameters of the fit remain relatively constant. That said, one does not merely pull a shoe out of the box and nail it home, It often requires modifications, especially when dealing with narrow, boxy feet. Also take note that the toe of the NB "Center Fit" shoe is manufactured such that it is not as wide as the toe of the original NB shoe.
    I'm assuming the procedure applies to all four hooves being fitted the same way?,
    Not quite. Though the concepts involved in the trimming protocol, trimming to the live sole plane, removal of distortions, mapping, remain the same, the fit is somewhat different because the hind foot is shaped differently than the front.
    if this is the case, doesnt any one who advocates for NB find it a little strange for nature to produce four hoofs that would be identical on all four limbs?,
    Now that you know that your assumstion is incorrect, the answer should be obvious to you.
    And, anyone who trims or shoes horses on a regular basis, especially if that someone is a professional, knows that most of the time, nature doesn't even produce a paired(front or hind) pair of feet that are identical.
    we know a horse lands heels first in his front limbs, dose he's hind hooves follow the same action?
    Generally speaking, yes. But, as always, It Depends.
    if not wouldn't this necessitate a different shaped & structured hoof ,& wouldn't this all so mean the hind hooves would display a different wear patten then that of the front hooves ?
    It Depends.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack mac View Post
    Theses are all the things you are taught not to do when traditional trained as the practice of has been proven for more than a century to lead to crippling lameness in the horse, & if you wish to keep a horse sound for the duration of his nature life.
    Absolute rubbish.
    When finishing the foot, only remove the flares that are
    obvious from the mid portion of the hoof wall down
    .its called dumping & boxing the foot its been written about for over a hundred years as one of the most destructive things you can do to a hoof capsule performed regular it leads to contraction & eventually side bone
    No, it does not and it never has. No properly trained traditional farrier is ever taught to "leave the flares"

    Now, I think we can both agree that the American Farrriers Association is a "Tradition based" organization. So, let me quote to you from the AFA's Certification Study Guide which gives the parameters for evaluating the trimming, shoe fabrication, shoe application and finishing the feet for the certification. (the numbers represent the scores that are possible depending on the work)

    "Wall Dressing(figures 25 & 26)
    10 The hoof wall is straight. All dishes and flares removed smoothly from the coronary
    band to the ground or (at least) the bottom two thirds of the hoof.

    8,6,4,2 There are varying degrees of error(e.g., dubbing, over or under-dressing of dishes
    and/or flares) which could be corrected without harming the horse or endangering
    secure nailing."

    Now, it would seem that the 'traditiional' way actually involves more and higher wall dressing than do the NB protocols. Hmmmm........
    (Figure4-A) Undercut the remaining hoof left over the shoe.dumping the toe another crippling destructive affliction condemned by writings for over a hundred years
    This is not dumping the toe. Were you more cognizant about the protocol, you would know that the ?underecut" refers to taking the rasp and from the bottom, creating a slight angle to the portion of the foot that overhangs the shoe. Call it "light rockering" if it suits your understanding better. Surely you are not anti rockered toes are you? After all, that is ever so traditional.
    (Figure4-B) This will give you the appearance of the Naturally
    worn bare foot. This statement is one of the most contemptible as a farrier i have ever read,

    Then I suggest you read more. A lot more.
    it imply to purposely set out to not keep the hoof in pristine condition & encourages one to insidiously systematicly & destructively give the hoof a worn out appearance, which in my book is tantamount to abuse
    Your book is wrong. This procedure does not give the hoof a "worn out appearance", nore does it change the hoof from a pristine condition. Unless of course, that pristine condition includes flare, dishes and other distortions such as underrun heels and run-out toes.

    And let me repeat, yet again, for the record, the NB protocols do not advocate or teach "dumping the toe", "dubbing the toe " or any other such tomfoolery.
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Dec. 23, 2007 at 09:31 PM.



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