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  1. #41
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    FriesianX and NOMIOMI1:
    Good posts. I often wonder about those that venture across the pond or mortgaged the house to buy their next horse and then discover they can't sit the trot claiming "it's so uber" LOL!!! And they show locally and hit a few rec shows after spending 75K. Double LOL! Whatever.

    However, if one wants to get out of second level and run with the big dogs their going to need a horse that can too. I think this is a given NO? And I am sure this is what Cindy was trying to convey.

    I have to comment on Cindy though. Just recently my little white mare and I attended a clinic with her. Yes, this little mare was certainly outclassed by the much nicer horses that were there. After all, I plucked her from a farmer’s field not for her exquisite movement (lol) but because I couldn't stand looking at her in that condition any longer. So, although I love this gal, and she gives me 100%, I am not delusional, I know what she is and isn't. But she is a hellova great ride and her confidence is building each time out.

    Anyway, Cindy did not look down on this little mare. Why would she? She works with all different horses and riders. She got on her and did a fabulous job with this mare and gave me a lot of input, some good, some not so good but all very helpful and constructive.

    I am not understanding all the hullabaloo going on here. I do believe that Janet Brown-Foy made pretty much the same statement in one of her recent videos concerning this issue and no one came undone over it.

    Dune: I just saw your post and I roared over it because I too have picked up fantastic horses that I could never afford because the owner couldn't ride it after spending all that $$$. LOL! IT's that damned "uber trot". So, yea, keep on buying those expensive horses.



  2. #42
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    I see this more in the hunter/jumper world and you really can get horses for a song and dance over there. A horse in our barn sold for less than half of what he is worth after placing well at his first A show because they want to go buy a jumper across the pond. He is a very safe and cute 4 year old hunter that still needed some miles but was sold well within my price range. Of course he sold in one weekend and will go on to do very well. I know of two people who have shown at most 2ft 6in and are buying 4ft horses this year and have maybe one rated show under their belt. TO each his own I expect. I foresee alot of schooling shows on horses well over 30k around here!
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  3. #43
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    Who says everyone who buys an expensive horse can't sit its trot? This central assumption that so much of this very faulty logic is based on - that's total bull! Nonsense!

    Quite a few people I know are doing far, far better on their 'expensive, imported' horses. Better balanced horses, even with huge gaits (and who says they all have huge gaits anyway, that's utter rot), are far easier to sit than the unsuited, on the forehand horse who can't balance and tightens the back up to compensate, tossing his rider around at every stride, or the long heavily built ungaingly, uncollectible horse that rattles ANY rider all over the place. That is EXACTLY the kind of horse you see so many people 'can't sit to' properly.

    I've seen people leap up in riding ability riding these better quality horses. The modern types are incredible to ride - a rider can sit and look far, far more elegant on one of these animals.

    A friend of mine just bought a 'very expensive' horse and it's UNBELIEVABLE the difference in how well she rides just in one month. This is not exceptional. This is how it IS, more often than not.

    I think it's pure jealousy that leads people to generalize that everyone who gets an expensive horse can't sit its trot! What nonsense!



  4. #44
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    Apr. 11, 2006
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    Southern Ontario
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    slc -- I'd like to believe that people are so careful in handling their personal finances, but I don't think the facts bear this out. Consumer debt and default on that debt are at an all-time high. I haven't read the article, but I'll still take the position that it seems to promote an attitude that can have disastrous consequences. People who are showing at upper levels aren't getting their horse-buying advice from a magazine and don't need the author's blessing to buy a pricey horse. The message "go in debt for a nice horse if you want to move up the levels" works on the low-level, not-rich rider with a nice safe QH who wonders if the barrier between her and 3rd level is a high dollar horse. Then you see people who gouge their retirement savings for a schoolmaster they can't ride anyway (I saw it happen). Anyhow, my original point still stands -- houses, cars, boats and plasma tv's don't suffer when we feel buyer's remorse, but horses often do.



  5. #45
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    You have some really good points. But I'm going to maintain on two other points - 1 - the magazine article is not going to alone change anyone's behavior, and 2 - expensive horses are not always so hard to sit - quite the contrary. people do quite often improve their riding by leaps and bounds with such horses. AND sit far better.

    I do know many very irresponsible people who handle money badly - but they handle all their financial decisions badly - their horses, their children - everything. everything suffers fairly evenly. i don't feel that anything - an article, a person, anything can change someone who is fundamentally and chronically not able to make responsible decisions - it comes out of a lack of impulse control and planning, and there you're getting into their early training and - neurology.



  6. #46
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    Dec. 20, 2003
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    I'm rather conservative when it comes to going into debt for anything. I do currently have a mortgage and a car payment (got a new car this spring, because my husband's 1992 Ford Taurus was ready to die, so I gave him my 98 Mustang). That's it. I really don't want to be in debt any further than that, and I do not live paycheck to paycheck.

    I think it's rather risky to go into debt on an animal. What would you do if the horse broke its leg or coliced and died tomorrow? I realize many people would purchase insurance on the horse, however, if you're going into serious debt to buy the horse, how many of you have the extra cash around to pay for insurance for the full amount as well? In addition, if it's only a $20 or 30K schoolmaster, it may be uninsurable. I, for one, would not take that risk.
    Random horse pics http://www.flickr.com/photos/glfprncs/
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  7. #47
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    Nov. 1, 2005
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    I think people's goals, abilities and financial situations are too different to generalize. Would it make sense for ME to go into debt for a horse? None whatsoever.

    Would it make sense for a talented young adult, who wants to make a career out of horses to take a risk on an expensive and talented young horse. Maybe. I would not automatically rule it out.
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  8. #48
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    Jun. 1, 2001
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    Rosco, GA
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    Quote Originally Posted by class View Post
    cars can "die" too. that's why people carry insurance on them.

    sorry, but i don't see my horses as a little side project or a hobby. i see them as a necessity. kind of like a car. i don't have a car payment, but i do have a horse payment. although, i'm really not sure exactly how it is any of your business what other people do with their money?
    None of our business untill imprudent loans start to destroy the economy. I guess sub-prime loans are none of my business either.



  9. #49
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    Nov. 19, 2002
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    Sorry SLC: I forgot your the Grand Mystic Puba that knows all, hears all, and sees all, even reading someone's mind. LOL!

    There are plenty out there that can sit very well on their imported/expensive horses so please don't try to stir up crap. K?

    I am referring to those that can't and there are plenty of them out there too.

    So glad your "friend" is doing well on her new horse. No, this is not how it usually is even if you want to play that in your head.

    What usually happens is this wonderful horse will go along nicely for awhile and then finally falls apart because it is not being ridden correctly and then someone like Dune comes along and picks it up for a song. LOL!!!



  10. #50
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    Jul. 14, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2 View Post
    I don't see any way in which that article is 'promulgating irresponsibility'. People are not entirely stupid. No one is going to read that and say, 'Dayyum, I'm gonna get me a loan and buy Brentina!' so easily. It is more a nod to people considering it, able to do it, that there are times when that is what is needed. I really do not feel a paragraph in a magazine article is going to make people any more or less responsible than they already are.

    No one is going out there and finding team horses in backyards. Horses have always been expensive, and good horses are more expensive. For certain kinds of goals, this is what people do need to do, and it often means a loan or taking money intended for something else.

    I don't like to see kids skipping college in favor of riding of course and often post stay-in-school advice here - unless...unless it's a very talented individual, and a real structured, intelligent program intended to wind up giving them a very solid livelihood.

    Banks giving loans generally enforce a certain level of responsibility. A person has to have a certain amount of backing to get a loan - collateral -a house, something they can put up of value. People do not lightly enter into something that could take away their collateral.

    Too, loans for discretionary purchases are not handled quite the same by banks as house and car loans aided by the automotive companies and federal housing agencies. My understanding is that banks are not all that cavalier about them.

    A bank doesn't ask 'do you have enough money for vet bills' directly, however, I have had a couple friends who went to the bank to try and get a loan for an expensive competition horse and were denied (both youngsters in college or just out), with the same argument I've heard given to some new home buyer wannabes - 'You can't afford to keep it up'.

    The only person I ever knew who got loans on things they couldn't really manage, had put fraudulent information down on the application. Unless one is willing to be fraudulent one is unlikely to get a loan for something they can't maintain (in a few months, even for a house, LOL!).

    The interest puts such a requirement on people (as well as the possible long term fallout of not keeping up) that I know no one who wants to enter into a loan so lightly or irresponsibly, and surely even fewer banks, who give loans to people who are not capable of managing what they buy (except houses, and that's going to go away).
    Things have really, really changed in this regard, slc. Please do see the documentary "Maxed Out." It was a 2006 release and is available on DVD now.

    Credit card companies have become predatory lenders of the worst sort. They will give multiple credit cards to college freshman with part time jobs and no credit history. In fact, you get a higher credit score if you only make minimum payments. This is how they make money. Most of the cards "fine print" allow them to jack up the interest rates without prior notice(to as much as 28%) if the creditor obtains more credit, because they say their risk has changed. it is truly appalling.

    I have no problem with people buying the best horse that they can afford that is suitable for them. In fact, I have given people the same advice, whether they need a schoolmaster to learn on or just want to be competitive.

    The only problem that I had with the article was telling people to buy a horse on credit. Although I am sure that there are exceptions, in most cases, this is a very irresponsible practice.

    Financing "necessaries," like a car to get to work or a home to live in, is quite different, in my view. It must be noted that the advice in the article is not from a disinterested observer, but rather from a person who sells horses. I wonder how business is doing?

    http://www.braeburnfarms.com/forsale.htm
    Last edited by Eclectic Horseman; Dec. 19, 2007 at 01:27 PM.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  11. #51
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    slc -- I certainly agree with much of what you say, especially point 2 -- sometimes the more expensive horse is exactly the right choice (IF you can afford to keep him and keep him tuned up so he holds his "value"). In the case I alluded to, the horse and rider were not a good match, so it was a disaster all around -- rider would have been happier and wealthier had she kept working with her humble QH. And yes, rational people will not be swayed into making a major error by a subtle message in a magazine. But as you note, some people are impulsive and irrational -- a bit of licence from any source is all they need to justify their foolishness.
    Last edited by fargaloo; Dec. 19, 2007 at 01:20 PM. Reason: wasn't clear who I was responding to!



  12. #52
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    If the majority of people are less than average in the show ring then generalizing about peoples lack of ability as well as money would be correct. Lets just pretend that the majority of people we are discussing do dressage, are average riders, and are in regular training with a good trainer. Then spending 25k in my opinion is still a bit much when your still perfecting contact, departures, and aids. You still have to spend money on training, shows, and board. Add that up and your looking at your first year with your new horse in training and showing regularly for 40k on the low side. If you are mediocre and end up with scores you deserve I think that this might be a bit off putting. "Ive spent all this money and have gotten not much further than I did on my 7k horse".

    My question is this why the huge jump from 5k to 30k. Why not sell the ones you ACTUALLY do grow out of and buy something a bit more athletic for not much more?
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  13. #53
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    Those of you that say this is "nobody's business" need to wake up and crawl out from under your rock!!!

    I have PERSONALLY been a victim of someone who "financed a hobby" so to speak. He was my landlord, overextended himself and sent SIX properties into foreclosure that he owned.....would you like to know how much notice I was given that I would be evicted? The initial time was 15 days that finally stretched to 3 weeks. All because some dumb@ss at a bank kept allowing him to finance stuff he couldn't afford.

    So DO NOT sit there and tell me that this is NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!! It is part of the credit crisis. People who have to go into debt to buy a horse should not be doing it UNLESS that horse is to be their means of livelihood. Buy the best you can AFFORD, not the best they will let you finance.

    Cars: most people need a car to get to and from work. Not many of us need a horse to get to work.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it"



  14. #54
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    oh lord. i was going to ignore the first person that said it was there business because i just felt sorry for their poor excuse for an argument. but now many people are claiming it is there business.

    you must be the same people who feel it is your business if people don't wear helmets, smoke cigarettes and overeat to the point of obesity. afterall, if it has an effect on your insurance premiums it must be your business. but wait, even people who ride horses are risking higher medical costs because of their hobby, so maybe you should start preaching about that, afterall it is your business and it could effect you however indirectly.

    all i can say is you must have A LOT of business to attend to. i would start with the war on iraq, that is costing you about a trillion times more than any costs related to someone defaulting on a $25,000 horse.



  15. #55
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    To me, borrowing for x horse is no different than borrowing because for x car. What I mean is, we "just" need something with wheels and other simple features. But, we typically get more than that, and often borrow to do so.

    People spend/borrow on what they want to. If the lender decides to take the risk, so be it. That's between borrower and lender.
    "Fool! Don't you see now that I could have poisoned you a hundred times had I been able to live without you." Cleopatra VII



  16. #56
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    Sep. 21, 2007
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    My question would be how paying off that loan affects the ability to care for the horse properly, pay for training and have (horse-)emergency money. I opted for a loan when my boy needed emergency surgery (at the precise time I had gotten laid off and was in the middle of a divorce).... and that did delay our resuming training after he was healed, but way better than the option to lose him

    Obviously that's a choice everyone needs to make to their very own circumstances and comfort zones, but my philosophy is: get as good a horse as you can afford, b/c a one that's not build to do the job or doesn't have the desire to do the job is just as expensive to take care of as one you're enjoying. But I also don't agree with over-horsing. The average AA who wants to get out of training level and considers 3rd the goal doesn't need a 25-50K horse.
    Last edited by InsideLeg2OutsideRein; Dec. 19, 2007 at 02:39 PM.
    "Reite dein Pferd vorwärts und richte es gerade.” Gustav Steinbrecht



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by class View Post
    oh lord. i was going to ignore the first person that said it was there business because i just felt sorry for their poor excuse for an argument. but now many people are claiming it is there business.

    you must be the same people who feel it is your business if people don't wear helmets, smoke cigarettes and overeat to the point of obesity. afterall, if it has an effect on your insurance premiums it must be your business. but wait, even people who ride horses are risking higher medical costs because of their hobby, so maybe you should start preaching about that, afterall it is your business and it could effect you however indirectly.

    all i can say is you must have A LOT of business to attend to. i would start with the war on iraq, that is costing you about a trillion times more than any costs related to someone defaulting on a $25,000 horse.
    Well since you asked, I can certainly voice my opinion on the above topics but since this is a horse BB.....

    If you want to live in your own little world with your head in the sand, that's fine, but I personally don't. And if it takes responding negatively to a completely irresponsible editorial like this in a magazine then hey...we have to start somewhere.

    You can feel sorry for my argument all you want, I feel sorry for you that you don't give a damn and think nothing you do could ever negatively impact someone else. That's the attitude that causes the problem in the first place---don't care how your actions relate to others.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it"



  18. #58
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    Aug. 19, 2005
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    In a way, I can understand the author's point of view on some of what she write, but in no way would recommend anyone take out a loan for a horse, go in debt for a horse, etc. But, it truly is no one's business what someone does with their money. To each his own.

    I know a woman who is on Horse #5 in as many years. She buys cheap, always thinking "diamond in the rough". She dumps the horses at an auction for a fraction of what she paid initially because the horse turned out dangerous, or just isn't what she wants. She could have spent that cash on an animal of more quality if she wasn't in such a hurry to get a horse. The latest horse, I hear, is also a pickle.

    There are quality animals around for amazing prices if you just take your time and really look. My last two were complete and absolute steals - one of them is 4th level!



  19. #59
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    Feb. 8, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
    Yes, you should buy the best horse that you can afford. BUT if you have to get a loan to buy the horse, you cannot afford it. This society is so comfortable with debt - and has such an instant gratification mentality - it scares me. What happened to saving cash up over time to buy that horse (or any other luxury item for that matter) when you actually have the money?
    I agree completely.



  20. #60
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Not being able to sit the uber horse's trot is one thing. On the financing, I think the scenario goes more like this:

    Nice ammy lady has a nice TBX (not crossed with WB) and is doing well at 3rd level. Horse's soundness becomes an issue, so she retires him. Says, "This time my dream horse, my WB." Budgets about $25K. Moves to barn of BNT. When she goes to buy new horse, does trainer find her an already 2nd or 3rd level horse to move on with (no); does she find her a younger horse with great potential locally (no); does she find her a trained horse or horse with good potential within 3,000 miles (no). She hauls her off to Europe, insists she MUST buy THIS horse, talks this near retirement age woman into MORTGAGING HER HOME to buy a $40,000+ YOUNG horse..... which, of course, is too much horse for her in general, so the trainer gets a nice young prospect to ride, and for $40,000, a woman who was showing competently and winning at 3rd level gets to be a "horse show mom" and pay for the privilege.

    I've seen this happen several times... sometime with lower level people, sometimes with higher. One does wonder about the motivation behind that editorial.....



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