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  1. #1
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    May. 6, 1999
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    Default Thread on Bill Moroney's Hunter Breeding Comments?

    Did I miss a thread that is talking about this? Is it in one of the other hunter-related threads? Or on the h-j forum instead of here?

    If it's just not out there yet, I'm most intrigued by what he says about breeding and "realism":

    If breeders in this country set realistic prices for the quality of horse they are trying to sell, then we should see an increase in sales in this country...The most important part of this equation is realism....You don’t want to insult the intelligence of a potential buyer by overinflating prices because someone else has higher prices...Anyone can ask a king’s ransom for a horse, but it’s only worth what someone will pay for it.
    Seems to me that what he's saying is that the problem with breeders here is that we overprice our stock. I think his justifications (the economy and European competition) are quite valid and might also apply to stud, handling, shipping and other add-on fees. Like the housing market, which Moroney mentions, somethings gotta give. I wonder how many of us will still be at in when we get to the other side of the country's "economic downturn."

    I also agreed with Moroney when he talked about how the 3-year-olds in IHF competitions were being warmed up/schooled. I recently made the mistake of mentioning that my 3-year-old was doing his changes nicely--which got him drilled over and over again by one trainer whose rider simply didn't have the timing/touch (and outside rein contact, alas) needed to let a naturally balanced baby do his changes comfortably. What bothered me wasn't that his left-to-right change suddenly evaporated (although it did). What really bothered me was exactly what I think bothered Moroney: that a three-year-old was even being ASKED to do so much!

    And like him, I'm sure the IHF babies were talented--just like mine. But it's a huge, huge problem for our industry, IMO, when talent encourages babies to be overworked. Moroney emphasized how, at the IHF, many babies seemed underschooled and THEN were overworked as they warmed up to go in the ring (because they hadn't had enough schooling before going to the show).

    IMO, USEF/USHJA would do the industry a huge favor by keeping statistics on horses, not just when and where they won, but how old they were and how long their careers lasted (horses and ponies alike). I appreciate what he wrote, but I also think something objective--empirical, if you will--is needed to reinforce the negative implications behind his arguments:

    How many of the horses who have done the IHF do we really see going on to be champions at our major competitions over fences 3'6" or higher? I don’t think there are many compared to the number of horses going through this program. That’s a sad statement.
    Sportponies Unlimited
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 19, 2005
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    "Seems to me that what he's saying is that the problem with breeders here is that we overprice our stock. I think his justifications (the economy and European competition) are quite valid and might also apply to stud, handling, shipping and other add-on fees. Like the housing market, which Moroney mentions, somethings gotta give. I wonder how many of us will still be at in when we get to the other side of the country's "economic downturn." "

    I think a problem here is that it costs alot to raise a horse to three years of age. (That includes stallion owners who have costs and give LFG over a two or three year period unlike in Europe; per diem costs, breaking/training costs, etc)

    Maybe what is gong to give is the fact that the dollar will get so weak it will make up for the higher costs of raising stock over here? (That is if we survive the economic downturn...but any downturn in the USA would affect horse breeders globally, not just locally I would think.)



  3. #3
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    I totally agree with the overpricing of hunter prospects by breeders/dealers/agents. When talking with a well-known hunter person about some of my youngsters, he told me that he prefers to do business with dressage breeders anymore because their pricing was much more realistic and there weren't nearly as many commissions to pay.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    What I always find crazy, is you hear that an American horse is overpriced at, say $15,000 because they can find that horse in Europe for $12,000. OK, maybe you can, but you still have to pay to get it here, unless you plan to move to Europe.

    I do think many horses are overpriced, but not from the breeder. The next person in line doubles and triples the price. A friend of mine sold a filly for $5000. about 10 years ago. She was shipped across the country, and before she got off the van, I saw a big fancy ad in the Chronicle listing her at $25,000.

    I have not read the article, but would LOVE to. As for the pushing the youngsters, it is the reason I no longer nominate my stallion for the IHF. I wish there was a way I could nominate him so his youngsters could ONLY show in hand, or jump at 4.

    Pushing is not about the training, but drilling to make it show worthy, and win worthy. I have no problem doing changes on a talented youngster or jumping them at 3, but the key is OCCASIONALLY, not many, and VERY few with any height (2'+).

    One of my 3 1/2 year olds was only 20 times under saddle when a person trying him came across a diagonal and asked for a change. He did it quietly and clean. She asked again the other way, and again, the same. If they are naturally balanced, and the person is good, it can be easy. Now if she had not gotten them, and wanted to keep trying, I would have halted it. The question is how much drilling would it take before that same pair would have felt confident putting it in the IHF finals? To me, it should be, ok, he can do them, so just ease it in there about once a month.



  5. #5
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    Jun. 9, 2003
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    Alabama
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    There are always going to be promotional/quick return on investment "opportunities" that are not necessarily in the best interest of the animal. IHF and any other "futurity" is directed towards the young horse (usually 2 or 3 years old). Unfortunately, this allows a way to showcase the talents of a young horse (or the parents) thus giving that bang for the buck attitude a new outlet. Those opportunities exist in all the disciplines -- what happens to the young reining or cutting horses that are pushed to perform beyond what their young bodies should be asked to do? The Thoroughbred racehorse industry in the US breeds for the earliest maturing youngsters and the shorter distances, to the ultimate detriment of the breed. So, I suppose the h/j and dressage market is following suit -- I wonder what the impact will be down the road -- will those youngsters that show a propensity to mature faster and show their ability to compete earlier become more mass-produced from parents that accomplish that whether they last later or not? It is always that paradox -- going after the quick profit or looking at the big picture and long term plan to produce the best athletes. It's all about the money when it comes down to pushing the young ones.
    JMHO!
    PennyG



  6. #6
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    I am regularly seeing weanlings going for 10-12K, without having been to a show. Yearlings are being priced at 15-30K, again, with very little exposure. Two year olds, if started under saddle, I see priced at 50K, and being sold. I think these prices are pretty steep myself. Others' thoughts? Also, I am speaking of HB youngsters. And these prices, for weanlings and yearlings, are from the breeder, or once removed.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    I am regularly seeing weanlings going for 10-12K, without having been to a show. Yearlings are being priced at 15-30K, again, with very little exposure. Two year olds, if started under saddle, I see priced at 50K, and being sold. I think these prices are pretty steep myself. Others' thoughts? Also, I am speaking of HB youngsters. And these prices, for weanlings and yearlings, are from the breeder, or once removed.
    WOW! I am in the wrong part of Virginia.



  8. #8
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    Sep. 27, 2000
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    There is a thread over on Hunter-Jumper, called "IHF - Critical Comments."

    direct link to above thread



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr. 25, 2006
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    out west
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    In any sport, there are always people that will take advantage and overuse themselves or an animal. Unfortunatly there are people that would rather win now, then have an animal that will win in a couple of years. That isn't just in the IHF, as TKR said, it is in cutting futurities, reining, QH shows, paints, you name it, they all have futurities for young horses and the same thing happens!

    As far as over pricing IHF babies, of course they do! People will pay it! Same thing with a promising 4 yr old that has not shown, but has a good jump and is good looking selling for 40 to 60k! It happens all the time! I am not saying its right, but again, it follows the trend of any other extreme sport. People will do what it takes to win! What about that broodmare that sold at Keeneland for 10.5 million! We should be happy that we don't have to pay that! (yet...)



  10. #10

    Default

    I have written a letter to the editor on this topic and I am going to be very honest.

    I have read Bill Moroney's article several times and had to pinch myself to make sure I was not dreaming. While I have the utmost respect for Bill and all he has done for the horse industry, I feel he has decided to focus on ALL negative aspects and attributes of HB. If I were a North American breeder I would be upset to say the least.
    I agree with one of his statements regarding the IHF. It makes perfect sense to have 2-3 year olds hack and 4-5 year olds jump. Schooling breaks and "ringtime" are a problem EVERYWHERE... all venues. Why single out the HB shows?
    I disagree that all judges are capable of judging HB. They could be educated if they had a desire.
    Now... I will put on my flame suit... But why would Mr. Moroney presume to tell North American Breeders what to charge for their horses... using the US dollar loosing ground abroad as justification. These remarks actually coming from someone who worked very hard to get to this position in his life. I am dismayed by the hypocracy from Mr. Moroney who was someone who joined in the charge across the pond by purchasing plenty of horses for HUGE six figure price tags. This mind set has set the tone for the ( IN MY OPINION ) inflated prices on horses today.
    three questions...
    1. Does Mr. Moroney have a breeding program?
    2. Does Mr. Moronry have first hand knowledge of showing HB horses?
    3. Is Mr. Moroney aware of the thousands of quality horses bred on this continent every year?

    There are point chasers in all showing vevues, not just HB. Some will do anything to be Number 1!

    I have always been an advocate of buying North American progeny. If one third of the effort was spent searching the countryside and paying agents to look just as hard here... well who knows what would come of it.. but I'd wager it would be awesome.

    Mr. Moroney ... Please focus on the positive aspects and support the people on this side of the pond, and start by really looking to see what's out there. I have been involved seriously in HB for the last 3 years. I have met some amazing people... each one more passionate that the next. I have only uncoverd a tip of bounty.

    Sorry for the rant, but as I said I respect Bill Moroney and I ask that he really take the time and fully understand the ramifications of his remarks. I do not believe he intended to come across in a manner that I was disturbed by.

    Please now more than ever, keep our money here... we need to stop "outsourcing".
    ~ Bill Rube ~
    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
    Check us out on Facebook



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 18, 2000
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    ~~~Virginia Horse Country~~~
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    Yeah!! Yeah!! SilverBalls, right on!!!
    Last edited by talloaks; Dec. 19, 2007 at 02:03 PM. Reason: can't spell
    http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill



  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    I totally agree with the overpricing of hunter prospects by breeders/dealers/agents. When talking with a well-known hunter person about some of my youngsters, he told me that he prefers to do business with dressage breeders anymore because their pricing was much more realistic and there weren't nearly as many commissions to pay.
    One of the reason that dressage breeders prices are more realistic is that many of their youngsters are not cut out for the dressage ring but the hunter ring. Therefore, they have no use for the horse and don't want to keep paying the freight on something that is not going to fit into their program. I have been fortunate enough to purchase two of these failed dressage horses and have benefited greatly.

    http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/36...600x600Q85.jpg

    and

    http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/15...600x600Q85.jpg

    I also agree with SB that people just need to beat the bushes and comb the countryside looking for their next superstar.



  13. #13
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    out west
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    Clearround, tell me where you found yours! I will take a couple
    Your baby on your picture site is adorable, what is the breeding?



  14. #14
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    WOW! I am in the wrong part of Virginia.
    I see weanlings regularly sold in this area for around 12K, but it seems that their price does not budge mutch between then and the time they are started under saddle at 3. Then, if they are solid WTC, I have seen a lot of asking prices for the nicer ones at around 30K, but I only know a few breeders who get this much (these are very nice prospects).

    To determine how to price a horse, I look at what horses of similar quality / training go for. There are some in my barn, however, that I wouldn't sell at any price.



  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Samotis View Post
    Clearround, tell me where you found yours! I will take a couple
    Your baby on your picture site is adorable, what is the breeding?
    Thanks Samotis. I can't take credit for finding either horse. Each was found by my respective trainers. The chestnut was found in a field in germany and the bay was found here after being imported as a dressage horse.

    My colt is by Escapade. He is a looker isn't he ? (proud momma that I am). He is by Escapade and is just a big puppy dog. Is he currently living in CA with Spacely (Stacey) and will come east to PA in late March.



  16. #16
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    I have written a letter to the editor on this topic and I am going to be very honest.

    I have read Bill Moroney's article several times and had to pinch myself to make sure I was not dreaming. While I have the utmost respect for Bill and all he has done for the horse industry, I feel he has decided to focus on ALL negative aspects and attributes of HB. If I were a North American breeder I would be upset to say the least.
    I agree with one of his statements regarding the IHF. It makes perfect sense to have 2-3 year olds hack and 4-5 year olds jump. Schooling breaks and "ringtime" are a problem EVERYWHERE... all venues. Why single out the HB shows?
    I disagree that all judges are capable of judging HB. They could be educated if they had a desire.
    Now... I will put on my flame suit... But why would Mr. Moroney presume to tell North American Breeders what to charge for their horses... using the US dollar loosing ground abroad as justification. These remarks actually coming from someone who worked very hard to get to this position in his life. I am dismayed by the hypocracy from Mr. Moroney who was someone who joined in the charge across the pond by purchasing plenty of horses for HUGE six figure price tags. This mind set has set the tone for the ( IN MY OPINION ) inflated prices on horses today.
    three questions...
    1. Does Mr. Moroney have a breeding program?
    2. Does Mr. Moronry have first hand knowledge of showing HB horses?
    3. Is Mr. Moroney aware of the thousands of quality horses bred on this continent every year?

    There are point chasers in all showing vevues, not just HB. Some will do anything to be Number 1!

    I have always been an advocate of buying North American progeny. If one third of the effort was spent searching the countryside and paying agents to look just as hard here... well who knows what would come of it.. but I'd wager it would be awesome.

    Mr. Moroney ... Please focus on the positive aspects and support the people on this side of the pond, and start by really looking to see what's out there. I have been involved seriously in HB for the last 3 years. I have met some amazing people... each one more passionate that the next. I have only uncoverd a tip of bounty.

    Sorry for the rant, but as I said I respect Bill Moroney and I ask that he really take the time and fully understand the ramifications of his remarks. I do not believe he intended to come across in a manner that I was disturbed by.

    Please now more than ever, keep our money here... we need to stop "outsourcing".
    Holy cow, Silver Balls, I actually agree with you here : ).

    I *do* think some horses are pushed to early/hard for the IHF, and personally no longer would show a 3 y.o. over fences in it (been there, done that, and had a horse ruined doing it by a top BNT). But I agree that this phenomenon is not unique to HB by any means (I do have serious concerns about some of the age division young horse dressage tests / showing, for example).

    Re sales, I think the biggest obstacle to selling the youngsters is not current pricing, but a lack of a network linking buyers and sellers. I have H/J friends who tell me they have looked high and low for prospects (unsuccessfully), and are so happy when I refer them to sporthorse breeders I know and are impressed with the quality (and not put off by price; to the contrary they often think they are reasonable). There are of course always examples of barn blindness, or simply "drop dead" pricing (i.e., instances where the buyer does not really want to sell but will under exceptional circumstances). But there are probably just as many instances where a real bargain can be had due to special circumstances of the seller. You just have to know where to look.



  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    Holy cow, Silver Balls, I actually agree with you here : ).

    Re sales, I think the biggest obstacle to selling the youngsters is not current pricing, but a lack of a network linking buyers and sellers. I have H/J friends who tell me they have looked high and low for prospects (unsuccessfully), and are so happy when I refer them to sporthorse breeders I know and are impressed with the quality (and not put off by price; to the contrary they often think they are reasonable). There are of course always examples of barn blindness, or simply "drop dead" pricing (i.e., instances where the buyer does not really want to sell but will under exceptional circumstances). But there are probably just as many instances where a real bargain can be had due to special circumstances of the seller. You just have to know where to look.
    Exactly
    ~ Bill Rube ~
    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
    Check us out on Facebook



  18. #18
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    It isnt just IHF. It isnt HB either ...

    Look at the yearling lunge line Futurities in the AQHA and APHA.

    Look a the 2 year old HUS (Hunter Under Saddle) in the AQHA and APHA disciplines, as well as the 3 year old HUS Futurities as well. All big money events and all VERY well attended ... and what a lot of breeders specifically breed for ... Heck - why ANYONE would want to school a yearling on a lunge line in small circles is quite beyond me ...

    So far no IHF or HB person that I have ever heard of stuffs their babies with steroids as weanlings, yearlings and 2 year olds, treadmills them for hours, all to get that huge muscle mass on immature musculoskeletal systems. Maybe I am naive and it really DOES happen - who knows - I had always thought that was pretty much the exclusive domain of the halter people ...



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
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    SilverBalls post is so right on, it's crystal clear.

    And it isn't JUST HB.

    Regarding the pricing point; as mentioned here many times before, established and successful breeders can regularly get more for their stock due to their own reputations.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  20. #20
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    GREAT POST BILL!
    Zillionair Cremello JC Thoroughbred & Pure White Gold All White Palomino Dual Thoroughbred & APHA
    http://www.norsire.com
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