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  1. #1
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    Default 3rd level double/ qualifications info from Janet Brown-Foy

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (I posted this on the eventing forum first as they were worried about ULR being able to do 3rd/4th without sacrificing great time/money away from their events schedules (harder is some areas than others ).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRry1KLvJ2U

    What this link for a good idea of what Brown thinks the proposal will look like. Its very informative (includes double bridle at 3rd level and qualifications info) She stated "10 points" to move up (means you can move up with two weekends if you score in the upper sixties).

    This set of videos is also a very interesting to watch! Thanks so much to the poster! Look at their other videos, its training (A) through FEI (S).



  2. #2
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    Default

    Two thoughts on the video:

    1. When I was in college, I was preparing for a career in science. That is different than preparing for my hobby. But more importantly, lets not forget that a "C" is a passing grade, Janet, and no one was held back a grade for getting a C. They advanced to the next level. Why does she think that the system of standards for dressage should be higher than for college? Or higher than the previous USDF medal system? Or the previous GAIG/USDF Qualifying system?

    2. Only two weekends of showing if you score in the high 60's at third level? Piece of cake, right?
    Last edited by J-Lu; Dec. 16, 2007 at 11:37 AM. Reason: kant spel rite



  3. #3
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    Default

    I wholeheartedly agree with J-Lu. In addition, I'm completely unconvinced that there is sufficient "problem" to be solved by imposing qualifying points. A review of published scores from recognized shows indicates that almost NO one is scoring at below "satisfactory" levels currently. USDF/USEF (e.g., TDs, Judges, show managers) should dismiss problem riders from shows, not burden the rest of us unnecessarily. The national organizations can't keep up with their recordkeeping requirements now and won't be able to handle the extra burden. Rules like this will drive AAs and Juniors out of the national organizations by imposing time/cost/other bureaucratic requirements, will hurt trainers and breeders who sell trained horses that AA buyers and Juniors won't be able to show, will encourage over-showing, long-hauling and stressed horses, will hold back talented riders and horses, and is "un-American" in that it would create a dressage "class system" that is totally contrary to the ethic of open opportunity that this country stands for. And for those of us AAs or Juniors with busy professional lives or school obligations who only manage to show 2 or 3 times per year, Janet's idea of 10 points would likely take us between 3 and 5 years to accumulate, because even the professional riders rarely score 69%+. Does this woman realize how ridiculous it sounds when she says she intends to impose a requirement that would apply to every rider that is tougher than for championship classes and medals? When a 5 is "sufficient" and a 6 is "satisfactory," scores in that range ought to indicate that one is not harming the horse when riding or executing the movements. If they don't, the organization has a judging problem, not a competitor problem.



  4. #4
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    Jun. 12, 2006
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    Default

    I really don't have much to say about the rule changes, but THANK YOU for the links to these videos!

    WOW! Very informative and I love to watch the rides!

    Mountain View Farm
    Diva 5-7-07, Dolce 5-19-08, Devo 6-10-09

    When handling yourself....use your head. When handling your horse....use your heart!<3




  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisM View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with J-Lu. In addition, I'm completely unconvinced that there is sufficient "problem" to be solved by imposing qualifying points. A review of published scores from recognized shows indicates that almost NO one is scoring at below "satisfactory" levels currently. USDF/USEF (e.g., TDs, Judges, show managers) should dismiss problem riders from shows, not burden the rest of us unnecessarily. The national organizations can't keep up with their recordkeeping requirements now and won't be able to handle the extra burden. Rules like this will drive AAs and Juniors out of the national organizations by imposing time/cost/other bureaucratic requirements, will hurt trainers and breeders who sell trained horses that AA buyers and Juniors won't be able to show, will encourage over-showing, long-hauling and stressed horses, will hold back talented riders and horses, and is "un-American" in that it would create a dressage "class system" that is totally contrary to the ethic of open opportunity that this country stands for. And for those of us AAs or Juniors with busy professional lives or school obligations who only manage to show 2 or 3 times per year, Janet's idea of 10 points would likely take us between 3 and 5 years to accumulate, because even the professional riders rarely score 69%+. Does this woman realize how ridiculous it sounds when she says she intends to impose a requirement that would apply to every rider that is tougher than for championship classes and medals? When a 5 is "sufficient" and a 6 is "satisfactory," scores in that range ought to indicate that one is not harming the horse when riding or executing the movements. If they don't, the organization has a judging problem, not a competitor problem.
    GREAT post.



  6. #6
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    Default

    I think they are failing to take a lot into consideration. Just a few are that not everyone has unlimited time and funds to campaign a horse and that the grading system is weighted towards people with higher quality horses and can reward that more than just good riding. It defeats the purpose of what they are trying to do.

    Why not just give the judge the authority to blow the whistle on someone who is "abusing" the double bridle or riding so badly that it is abusive to the horse or a horse that is acting up so bad that they could injure themselves or someone else? God knows I've watched riders with such poor control of their bodies that they spurred the horses in the sides every step during sitting trot. We've all watched people at all levels who had no business being out there and we've all seen horses that were so bad as to be dangerous.

    In eventing, a technical delegate has the ability to stop any rider and eliminate them on the spot for dangerous or "abusive" riding. Give the dressage judges that authority as well.

    I'd much rather see a system in place on judging the riders than just using the total scores of a test. Make it so that you have to score at least a 6 in collective marks as a rider to move up in several tests or something much simpler than this scoring system.



  7. #7
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    Default

    The video is the same one that was first linked to the other post and whether it is 10 points or 20 points, I agree with Dennis-it is "un American". Most of the AA riders are doing this for fun, it is their hobby and an outlet for their otherwise stressed and busy lives so the point of inflicting this PENALTY is for what reason?!! I agree that if a judge sees someone abusing the double, they have the right to either eliminate that person or give them low scores, for the rest of us to suffer is ridiculous for what we pay the USDF/USEF to be members!

    By every thread and every posting I have seen to date, it is obvious to me that this is not a popular decision for many reasons:

    1)USEF and USDF cannot even get/keep our scores correct now (see other thread).
    2)THIS RULE IS STILL NOT THE RESOLUTION FOR DOUBLE BRIDLE ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!
    3)It will unfairly hold riders back due to not enough shows in their area or they will over extend themselves and their horses by attending too many shows to chase their points.
    4)Many individuals that used to volunteer their time have said they will cut that, hmm, who will be helping out at these shows if that happens?
    5)Schooling shows will be overwhelmed!

    Frankly, I am now at a time/age that if they put this rule through, I will speak with my feet and not pay them another dime. As a rider, I pay to compete in dressage classes, as a breeder, I am generally showing my young horses(not only do we have to pay entry fees, but these youngsters must have a lifetime number for qualifying for year end awards-add these costs up), might not add up to enough impact just myself, but if everyone were to do this, they would eventually be broke! How many times have we paid to have a new logo, new stationary, etc. for USEF to change their name?!

    Again, since I am a "Participating Member" (which I am told I HAVE to be) why am I not participating in a vote on this rule? Somehow I feel like I am not participating here.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post

    Why not just give the judge the authority to blow the whistle on someone who is "abusing" the double bridle or riding so badly that it is abusive to the horse or a horse that is acting up so bad that they could injure themselves or someone else? ....

    In eventing, a technical delegate has the ability to stop any rider and eliminate them on the spot for dangerous or "abusive" riding. Give the dressage judges that authority as well.
    Judges have it. They are loathe to use the authority because it really makes a mess of schedules. So, if they think the ride isn't downright dangerous or absolutely abusive, they often choose not to stop the ride, but alert the TD of the competitor's number to watch for the rest of the show (especially in eventing, they want the TD to know about potential problems before the pair get on the X-C) and make very sure the competitor understands the problem through not just scores, but direct comments on the test sheet.

    Judges are absolutely required to stop a test if there is any sight of blood. At all.

    If there is any doubt, the judge holds the rider and calls for a TD to make final determination. The TD may allow the rider to return to the arena and re-ride or decide to eliminate.

    This rule seems to me about "clearing out the top" not truly the safety of competitors and good treatment of horses. More bad stuff happens in the warmup, anyway, at any level.

    I agree with DennisM's post.
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  9. #9
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    Default

    DayDream Believer brought up a good point. How many times do we see riders abusing spurs with their floppy legs?
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  10. #10
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    Default

    I had already posted this link on another thread at least a week ago.

    This clinic where the films were made took place in New Jersey in October. Therefore the proposed "standards" that were passed out at the USDF convention in Florida at the end of November/first of December post-date this film.

    Since this film was made and since the convention, much has transpired re people talking about the proposed rule change and standards. Things are not the same as they were when the film was made.

    The film was interesting in that it showed that this proposal and "standards" were being discussed with a small group way back in October. My point was that we never heard about it right before the USDF convention where lots more people had a chance to talk about it. If we had been kept more informed we could have sent our delegates to the convention with MUCH more feedback for the members of the USEF Dressage Committee, most or all of whom were at the USDF convention.

    So while the film was interesting, it's old news. It does provide, to me, further evidence that this is about the double bridle and abusive riding, at least to Janet.

    Again, I say--empower judges and protect them when they call it as they see it. They are afraid to use the rule re abusive riding, or to give riders below a 5 or 6, for fear of retribution, complaints to USEF, and not getting promoted or asked back to judge. I have that in writing.



  11. #11
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    Default

    PS

    God help me if I have to ride in front of some of the people I've bugged by my stance and actions regarding this proposal!! I'm not implying that they would judge me unfairly but I am sure they won't cut me any slack, either. Not that I, or anyone, deserves it...



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    Two thoughts on the video:

    1. When I was in college, I was preparing for a career in science. That is different than preparing for my hobby. But more importantly, lets not forget that a "C" is a passing grade, Janet, and no one was held back a grade for getting a C. They advanced to the next level. Why does she think that the system of standards for dressage should be higher than for college? Or higher than the previous USDF medal system? Or the previous GAIG/USDF Qualifying system?

    2. Only two weekends of showing if you score in the high 60's at third level? Piece of cake, right?
    In my college, "C" gpa got you kicked out of most of the good schools - you could scrape by in general ed or communications, but if you wanted to be in Business or Engineering or many of the Science fields, you needed at least a C+ to stay in the school. I don't think we can compare college to dressage.

    What I hope does happen is the rules committee pays attention to what is going on in the dressage community, and they realize perhaps this proposal won't really work? I also hope they rethink the double at 3rd level and simply get RID OF IT. I personally am not opposed to a system that requires you hit certain score requirements before you move up the ranks - but I realize, reading the posts here, maybe 20 points is WAY TOO MUCH. And USEF is not ready to handle the paperwork! Janet's original estimate of 10 points seems much more reasonable. But USEF needs an infrastructure in place to process and analyze scores before they implement such a requirement.

    The two big California GMOs are doing a pretty hard campaign w/ their membership - hopefully other regional GMOs are also getting into the fray. Make your voices heard by contacting the Rules Committee. In writing...



  13. #13
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    Oct. 9, 2003
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    [QUOTE=J-Lu;2870648]Two thoughts on the video:

    But more importantly, lets not forget that a "C" is a passing grade, Janet, and no one was held back a grade for getting a C. They advanced to the next level. Why does she think that the system of standards for dressage should be higher than for college? :



    Because the college professors don't have to grade you in the same ole test, weekend after weekend, after you've graduated!
    dq140



  14. #14
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    Default

    In another of those videos, I was astounded to hear Janet Foy (and steffen agreeing with her) that if the horse doesn't stretch his frame in the lenghten trot she doesn't care and gives a good score. Where is dressagae headed with these people making these decisions? It is no different than the horse who is trained correctly to keep his balance on a stretchie circle!!! Then in the next breath she says she wants the training correct before the riders move up the levels. If you don't have enough self carriage to let the horse stretch down in the lenthened trot, by God, you shouldn't move up to any kind of level from that!! As well, in my mind, any "GOOD RIDER" as she calls them, should be able to ride a GP test in the snaffle BRIDLE. What a bunch of baloney these two clowns are!!!
    dq140



  15. #15
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    Default

    C is a passing grade. In college, they impose rules on grades to limit the number of people in the program. So saying you must have a C+ to stay in the program isn't because a C means one is incompetent, it's because they only have a certain number of slots available for the program and this culls the herd.

    So, are they saying they want to limit the number of riders?



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    C is a passing grade. In college, they impose rules on grades to limit the number of people in the program. So saying you must have a C+ to stay in the program isn't because a C means one is incompetent, it's because they only have a certain number of slots available for the program and this culls the herd.

    So, are they saying they want to limit the number of riders?
    That won't happen for long as the USDF, show managers, and the dressage clubs will lose too much money
    dq140



  17. #17
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    Unhappy

    Instead of forcing riders to make the scores, before moving up, I suggest they feed the judges some starch. We have all witnessed riders who had absolutely no business riding First, much less Third or Fourth, in the arena attempting to perform. I realize they never got good scores, but how many judges sent them from the arena?

    As said before, there are many good ammie riders, living in areas where recognized shows are hard to come by. It costs them a fortune to show each time. Even if they make all their "good" scores in one w/e. That can put them out of a move up for month, or a year.



  18. #18
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    I'm on a rampage now! And while we're at it, lets make up a class for GP riders, snaffle bridle only, who can't move up to a rated GP test or international shows until they score over 60%. That would settle things right up!!! Maybe it would get rid of some of these people who are now setting the stage for dressage!!
    dq140



  19. #19
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    Default

    The whole problem of this mess starts with the major error of allowing the double bridle at 3rd level. Take the double of 3rd level and still leave the snaffle as an option for 4th level.

    Then go back basics of the rider performance awards, don't move up until you have cmpetitively competed at "x" level with 4 or more scores of 60% or higher (not necessaily winning the class but in the top end of the class) to move onto the next level on that particular horse.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebecca yount View Post
    Again, I say--empower judges and protect them when they call it as they see it. They are afraid to use the rule re abusive riding, or to give riders below a 5 or 6, for fear of retribution, complaints to USEF, and not getting promoted or asked back to judge. I have that in writing.
    Afraid or unwilling ... yes, I agree that complaints are a huge issue, especially since the USEF doesn't have a strong history of supporting its officials from the first-hand accounts I've heard. And of course, not being asked back is very influential.

    To TDs as well as to judges.

    I don't know how to "fix" that.
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