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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2007
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    Default Does earnings ever trump pedigree

    If you were going to buy a broodmare would you ever overlook pedigree for earnings over $250K? She is a tough old mare with a ton of starts and raced for a long time. Her pedigree is decent, but not fantastic, but she has great confirmation and is just retiring from the track at 7. I don't really need a broodmare right now. But I can't get her out of my head as she reminds me of a tough old mare that we used to have. She also wasn't all pedigree, but she was tough and gutted out a successful race career. She did well after the track and I relate it to her toughness and heart. I have always liked horses that have raced for a long time and came away sound. I think it hurts the breed to retire horses early cause they are more valuable in the breeding shed.
    Nekoda



  2. #2
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    Default

    Well, I think the first question is what do you want to do with this mare? Breed her, obviously, hehe. But what are you looking to get out of her?

    Are you wanting a mare that will produce salable offspring on a national level (aka something that will bring money at Keeneland)? If so, I think her success will depend on a few factors. First of all, how did she earn that $250K? In stakes races or all in lower-end claiming races? That will really make a difference, as a stakes winning mare is going to be much more attractive on paper.

    What is her dam line like? Even if her pedigree isn't all that impressive, a mare out of a line of producers will always turn heads.

    If you are looking to breed on a more regional level, I would still ask yourself the same questions.

    All in all, the market is still glutted with mares. You can get mares that "have it all"-- pedigree, wins, conformation-- for relatively good deals. So missing part of the package can definitely hurt her chances commercially.

    On the other hand, if you're wanting to breed her for offspring for yourself and you think she has a lot to offer, I'd say go for it. Guts don't shine through on a catalog page, but they most assuredly can be passed along generation to generation. And you can't ride paper.

    ETA--
    And also, I don't know if you're considering selling her as a broodmare prospect, but believe it or not, most buyers would rather purchase a lightly raced 3 year old than a 7 year old campaigner. More years to breed them, easier to get in foal, etc. etc. Kind of counter-intuitive, but that's how the cookie crumbles, unfortunately.
    Last edited by Texarkana; Dec. 11, 2007 at 05:51 PM.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO



  3. #3
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Default

    I agree that it totally depends upon what your plans are for her and her babies. Probably not a good idea if you want to sell her in foal. Maybe not a good idea if you want to sell her foal unless you get lucky and breed her to the latest rising star in his first season. If you are poor like me performance always counts over pedigree because I can't can't afford both performance and pedigree and figure I have a better chance with a mare that could run herself. I wouldn't want her performance to be the only performance to be seen on the whole pedigree however. I like a non descript family that got the job done, not an aberation in a sea of unraced or unplaced horses.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Default

    From a sales perspective: non-stakes earnings will never trump pedigree in the sales ring. A blacktype stakes winning or placed mare with significant earnings can outsell her pedigree, especially at the regional sales.

    What do you mean when you say "decent" pedigree? This has a lot of different connotations for different people. I'm assuming you mean she's by a regional sire and out of a solid, but non-blacktype family with a decent but not top broodmare sire. And, that's what I'm basing my rec's on.

    Personally, I like these hard-knocking mares specifically for state bred programs. What I really look at is her family. I'm not expecting a lot of significant blacktype, but I want to see other horses that could run under the first dam. I want to see a good number of starts, high earnings (say at least $75k) and good speed ratings in multiple horses under the first dam and that trend continued in the second dam. If the mare in question is the only horse in the first two generations that could run, it makes me nervous and I start to think she may have been a fluke.

    IMO, $250k is nothing to sneeze at, even if she earned it the hard way. I'd definitely take a serious look at her. If you're hoping to breed the next KY Derby winner, she's probably not the mare for you, but if you're wanting to breed a bread-and-butter racehorse, she might be.



  5. #5
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    Nov. 7, 2007
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    Default

    The plan would be to breed her to a up and coming stallion that compliments her family and pray for the best. She will attract attention on the regional level but will never be a power house in the auction barn. She ground out most of her earnings in allowance races. I think I have realistic expectations as to what to expect. She would not be the first broodmare that we ever owned and bred.
    There is just something about this mare that I can't get out of my head.
    Nekoda



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Ocala
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyFox View Post
    From a sales perspective: non-stakes earnings will never trump pedigree in the sales ring. A blacktype stakes winning or placed mare with significant earnings can outsell her pedigree, especially at the regional sales.

    What do you mean when you say "decent" pedigree? This has a lot of different connotations for different people. I'm assuming you mean she's by a regional sire and out of a solid, but non-blacktype family with a decent but not top broodmare sire. And, that's what I'm basing my rec's on.

    Personally, I like these hard-knocking mares specifically for state bred programs. What I really look at is her family. I'm not expecting a lot of significant blacktype, but I want to see other horses that could run under the first dam. I want to see a good number of starts, high earnings (say at least $75k) and good speed ratings in multiple horses under the first dam and that trend continued in the second dam. If the mare in question is the only horse in the first two generations that could run, it makes me nervous and I start to think she may have been a fluke.

    IMO, $250k is nothing to sneeze at, even if she earned it the hard way. I'd definitely take a serious look at her. If you're hoping to breed the next KY Derby winner, she's probably not the mare for you, but if you're wanting to breed a bread-and-butter racehorse, she might be.


    I don't know why not. Silver Charm's dam was the hard knocking claimer Bonnie's Poker, who earned over $150,000 the hard way. Sunny's Halo's dam, Mostly Sunny, was a hard knocking claiming mare who made over $30,000, running over 40 times and winning 6. Theres a lot to be said for those kind of mares.



  7. #7
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    Jan. 31, 2006
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    Default

    Nekoda- what is the mares name? so we can all peruse her pedigree.

    I know a mare just like the one you are talking about, same age, and I so want to get her as a broodmare, but the b/f told me NO MORE. Oh well.



  8. #8
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    Nov. 7, 2007
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    Default

    I haven't bought the mare yet and don't want to say too much until I make up my mind.
    But here is a very similar mare. I don't think she has earned quite as much $, but has broken $200K. We considered her for a fox hunter but when we went to look at her, she was sold. The deal fell threw a few days after we bought a different horse. She is quite nice and I do think she would make a good broodmare.
    http://fltrainerlist.proboards104.co...ead=1194188099
    Nekoda



  9. #9
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    Middle Tennessee
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    Default

    I would buy the Katie's Danza mare just to look at her all day!

    But I'm guessing what you're saying is that the mare you want to buy has a pedigree like Katie's Danza-- the strong bloodlines are there, but the sire and dam sire really weren't much of performers themselves.

    I think mares like that are invaluable to regional/state-bred programs. I'd go for it. I think for a state-bred level, the bloodlines and the performance are good enough to make up for the lack of immediate blacktype.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2007
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    21

    Default

    They are quite similar. Katie is very impressive to look at and would turn heads on the hunt field. The trend in our barn is that mares like this get ridden and nobody likes a teenage maiden. The problem has always been that these tough race mares tend to excel as a sport horse. We then say that there will be similar mares coming off the track next year and the cycle lives on.
    I do hope that someone buys Katie as either a sport horse or a broodmare.
    Nekoda



  11. #11
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    Default

    Katie is the one that I was considering.

    She's just stunning.



  12. #12
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    Nov. 7, 2007
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    21

    Default

    Yeah,
    Katie is listed on the Fingerlakes page and everyone immediately assumes it is her. She has the looks and confirmation to make someone a great broodmare. If she doesn't sell the trainer will run her again next year. I am trying to get a friend to look at her for a sport horse, but he would rather have a gelding and that is a story for another day.
    Nekoda



  13. #13
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Clinton, BC
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    1,376

    Default

    I must admit I am a sucker for performance in a tough race mare as a broodmare prospect. If the pedigree has enough quality individuals in it to make it attractive, the lack of brilliant black type close up is of less importance to me, breeding regionally. If you have "all the money" you can buy the mare who has it all, pedigree, conformation, performance and production. But even then, after spending the big bucks, there is no guarantee that the foal will be as good as the dam or the family. There is always a difference between breeding for a catalog page and breeding for a racehorse.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2007
    Posts
    464

    Default

    It really depends on what you are breeding "for" ( and I hate saying that- I think it's a travesty that breeding for sales and breeding for racing have become such different things).

    If you are breeding to race, I would say go for it. This mare was profitable for someone. If every horse was like her, this would be an easy game. If she reproduces herself your program will be moving in a positive direction.

    Our goal is as much pedigree and race earnings as we can get (afford) but I tend to err toward the athlete if given a chance.

    If there isn't a lot of black type in her female family I look for good broodmare influences. I like to see some of the "biggies" in there if I can.



  15. #15
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    Aug. 6, 2007
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    Default

    Something else to think about... if she raced until seven, she obviously stayed reasonably sound. Really the breed needs her as much as the speedy well bred cream puff who bowed at 2 after going "really fast" a couple of times and then was sent to the breeding shed. Especially with synthetic surfaces.

    J



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2007
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    95

    Default

    Interesting question to OP.

    I am a firm believer that a mare who was a quality runner along with others in the family is what is important.....NOT pedigree (meaning WHO is in the pedigree) The standard satrts index which is provided by the jockey club and an American Produce Record can tell you what any horses SSI is. 1.00 is average 2.00 or more is superior. I try and stay away from mares who are below average and who's dam and most siblings were below average. I personally only have mares who won and placed in the first 3 starts and then some. Then I breed them to the best regional sires for less than $5,000. And we have been very successful so far.

    An allowance winner at Santa Anita is way better than a stakes winner at any fair circut.

    Check out these posts on what I believe one should look for in a broodmare.

    http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...435&trail=15#6

    Common denominator in producing stakes winners

    http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...ost?id=1191296

    What I look for in a broodmare.


    WWW.CALIFORNIARACEHORSE.NET



  17. #17
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    Aug. 12, 2007
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    Default

    Bump



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