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  1. #161
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    sorry Janet...still a few rule changes behind. Not something I'm generally concerned with since I know my speeds.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  2. #162
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    Jan. 8, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    It still amazes me how may lower level riders do not understand that too much speed and a too brave horse can be just as dangerous (if not more so) as one that stops. I've known more then one teenager (and their parents) who just didn't get it....and while the kid may have come off the course and said..."boy, that was a bit too fast or he wasn't listening...I needed more bit"....I've NEVER seen one of them do what it takes to school...i.e. PULL UP and stop, or circle...get under control and then continue...and if that doesn't work...stop and retire. That is a reaction that a rider who understands about training a horse has (and about the danger of too much speed even at a novice level fence)....and not a skill/reaction that most riders starting out have....so even with the penalties....I don't think it always sinks in for them.
    On this note, I have a question/comment. I am still trying to figure out what is the comfortable cruising speed for my TB. It's different in feel than my QH (she tends to pull, but I do pull her up/slow her down/circle on course, or rather I did when I was eventing her). I'm also getting used to figuring out pace, etc. It was just always obvious to me with my QH when I was too fast because she pulled and it FELT to fast. On my TB, I found out that "too fast" for BN feels about what he ought to be going at, which would be BN speed fault time AKA Training level Opt. time.

    My question/comment: What if you saw a rider going around a BN course, obviously in control, clocking around at a pace that would land them would speed faults, would you think that's dangerous riding? I'm a rider that has never NOT had breaks, even at that speed, and honestly my horse feels more comfortable at that speed. If I can bring him back, set up for jumps, and my goal is to get to Novice (hopefully will start next season going Novice so it won't really be the issue it is at BN), am I being dangerous going a little faster? I know one would incurr penalties, and I TOTALLY agree with that, but is it dangerous if someone is in total control?

    (I just forgot to check my watch, I'm still "green" myself at the whole worrying about time thing and have been trying to develop more a feel than depending on my watch).
    ~T3DE 2010 Pact Clique~



  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    sorry Janet...still a few rule changes behind. Not something I'm generally concerned with since I know my speeds.
    They KEEP changing them!!!
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodiousaphony View Post
    My question/comment: What if you saw a rider going around a BN course, obviously in control, clocking around at a pace that would land them would speed faults, would you think that's dangerous riding? I'm a rider that has never NOT had breaks, even at that speed, and honestly my horse feels more comfortable at that speed. If I can bring him back, set up for jumps, and my goal is to get to Novice (hopefully will start next season going Novice so it won't really be the issue it is at BN), am I being dangerous going a little faster? I know one would incurr penalties, and I TOTALLY agree with that, but is it dangerous if someone is in total control?

    Generally speaking....yes, I would consider that dangerous. The jumps at that level are too small to be taken at that speed even if in control. Part of knowing your speed is also knowing what speed is appropriate for what question and at what time....it is more then just if you can stop or control the speed. THIS is actually one of the hardest things in eventing and one of the things that you will be learning and adjusting no matter what your level. (at least IMO) When you walk a course...whether it is novice or Adv. You are looking at the question being asked, deciding how you need to approach that question (what balance and at what speed) and then...actually do what you plan! Sometimes our mistakes are in our plans...and sometimes they are in execution. If you have control...then fixing your mistake of being too fast will not be too hard once you get a feel for your speeds with a particular horse. And what you are experiencing is very normal. The feel of each of my horses x-c is very different...so I have to learn what each speed feels like for each horse. That gets quicker and easier the more different horses that you ride.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 12, 2007 at 06:00 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Generally speaking....yes, I would consider that dangerous. The jumps at that level are too small to be taken at that speed even if in control. Part of knowing your speed is also knowing what speed is appropriate for what question and at what time....it is more then just if you can stop or control the speed. THIS is actually one of the hardest things in eventing and one of the things that you will be learning and adjusting no matter what your level. (at least IMO) When you walk a course...whether it is novice or Adv. You are looking at the question being asked, deciding how you need to approach that question (what balance and at what speed) and then...actually do what you plan! Sometimes our mistakes are in our plans...and sometimes they are in execution. If you have control...then fixing your mistake of being too fast will not be too hard once you get a feel for your speeds with a particular horse. And what you are experiencing is very normal. The feel of each of my horses x-c is very different...so I have to learn what each speed feels like for each horse. That gets quicker and easier the more different horses that you ride.
    Thank you!
    I'm just so surprised how different, even after owning Spot for a year. Shouldn't be though, as I'm not that experienced. Don't worry, I am at least on the ball enough to slow down for the jumps (taking a BN jump at 420 when a horse may need something a little bit more substantial to "catch his attention" if you will to pick up his feet would be dumb, and that's just one reason it wouldn't be safe), Spot is painfully adjustable, more so in the downward direction than upward UNLESS I convince him he's allowed to GO and then up/down are equally aquired.
    But thank you for clearing that up. No flat jumping for me, don't want him catching a leg, etc. or flipping because he was rolling along too much to jump safely.
    In the event he ever DOES take off with me, trust me, pictures will be posted of me falling off laughing (it would shock me just that much).
    ~T3DE 2010 Pact Clique~



  6. #166
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    Is it Born ?

    Than I am defenetly very guilty. Novice speed for my old greeny is close to a fast trott.
    So last show of the season I let her gallop at a comfi lope, which makes her jump nicely, but it meant a heavty load of time penalties, 1 minute and change. Not realy a Novice quality horse and dangerous riding, yaiks.

    It points out the huge problem with which everybody that wants a rule change concerning dangerous riding has to deal with and has not answered, what is dangerous riding.
    Were does it start, me having a nice little morning gallop with my older Woman and hauling in a ton of speeding tickets, or the LLR on a packer, who has such a loose seat, is scared like hell, yells after each jump Gooooooooood Boooyyyyyyyyyy and if Good Boy twitches one ear wrong LLR goes darting.
    LLR should have stayed in bed and I am having just a good ol' time with my Woman on a nice Sunday mornin'

    Which answers the question about the ULR pushing a horse and or just having a little fun and a LLR on a packer. The ULR knows that he/she is pushing, the LLR thinks that he/she is save, when they are dancing a long the line of darting and when things go just that little bit wrong they hug moma earth, where the ULR makes the necessary corrections, ugly jump but no moma hugging.

    Or what would you think of a rider who just had the max jumping penatlties possible in stadium and than hauls that soory a.. of a horse into that start box, prelim. Dangerous, guarantied, should not be allowed to go X-C, but than cleans everybodies clocks in X-C.

    So what defienes dangerous riding
    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
    Caveman extraordinair



  7. #167
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    Novice speed is pretty darn slow for just about every one of my green horses. If left to a pace that they pick, it is comfortable training speed....for prelim speed, I just have to ask a little more...may be remind them after a fence or two to kick it back up but once kicked up...they stay there or accelerate. But it also isn't too hard to keep them at 400 meters a minute which is a perfectly fine speed for most novice courses...especially if you have to break the green bean down to the trot to trot through the water. (I've not gone BN)

    That was why I said generally.....you still run the risk of tripping over the smaller fences taking them with too much speed....and it is important to know what is too fast.

    A rider letting a horse move along in between fences isn't going to scare me if they are taking their fences at an safe speed for the fence....but it is dangerous to take a fence (at any level) at WAY too fast a speed for the type of fence (and generally speaking, BN novice fences at training speed is probably too fast ..just as novice fences at Prelim speed is probably too fast)....and dangerous riding is either doing so intentionally (too make time) or doing so either because you do not know any better or can't control the horse.


    As for rails in stadium....that is a harder one. That is just an indication that this may not be a good jumper but there have been plenty of horses who like to break rails but respect x-c jumps. That is why I'm a person not for more rules or regulations...riders have to know their own horse and take responsibility for what they do. If my horse who doesn't normally take a rail all of a sudden takes 5....I probably would not run x-c and it might be dangerous (or at least irresponsible) if I did since something is probably wrong with my horse (or more likely my riding) but there probably would not be a rule ever pased that would state that I can't then go x-c. But if I'm sitting on a x-c machine that usually takes 6 rails cause he likes to break them but always jumps well x-c (like some x-fox hunters I know)....not an issue. But that is the rider having horsemanship and knowing their horses. Hence why I am NOT for more rules then what we already have.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 12, 2007 at 08:22 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  8. #168
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    Born,
    excelent answer, you got it.

    thanks
    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
    Caveman extraordinair



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