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  1. #21
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    Apr. 4, 2007
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    Jasper, GA
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    The very, very worst thing is that all those people who really don't have a clue that what was going on was "bad." When they get their next "project" to break to drive, they will all be able to do it "themselves."

    And bad horsemanship repeats itself, over and over and...

    Thanks for posting... It reminds me to always have the balls to stand up for what I already know. In person, sometimes I need to remember to get a backbone too (hah, hah -you wouldn't know it from reading my posts, would you). But then, you all probably think that I don't know how to spell or write either (I really do, I just try not to spend too much time agonizing over these posts -they are so time consuming).

    Just cause someone calls themselves an expert, does not make them an "expert." Again, it really was a helpful post.
    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s



  2. #22
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    May. 31, 2005
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    Sumterville, Florida
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    Heheheheheheeeee... reminds me of that old country western song.... "Don't call him a cowboy 'til you see him ride!".

    Don
    *Charter Member-Blue Tarp State Driving Clique*
    "You can't always get what you want, but if you try, you just might find you get what you need" Mick Jagger



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2004
    Location
    East Central Mississippi
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    1,404

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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    ???

    On the one hand, I appreciate the courage it took to post your experience with this clinician. I am happy you were not hurt, and your ponies weren't either.

    On the other hand, you displayed a remarkable lack of common sense and horse sense from before you even hooked up the trailer. You decided to take a 'virgin' 3 YO and set her up to fail, and could have gotten both of you maimed or killed.

    Honestly, you were every bit as irresponsible as the clinician, from the second you tossed that 3 YO on the trailer. I just don't have words. Wow.
    Yeah... you took 'em right outta my mouth. sylvia



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2002
    Location
    Florida,
    Posts
    3,005

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    AF--

    Hind sight is a wonderful thing--shouldas don;t count. You did what you did and have learned from it. This is life and life is not perfect. Thank you for sharing a horrific experience--

    And to all who are seem to want to place blame--not one of you can honestly say you have never done something with your horse that you regret. It is kinda like the driver who says they have never had a run away or an accident.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2004
    Location
    East Central Mississippi
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    1,404

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    Goodness no... I don't think anyone is saying they've 'never' made a mistake.

    The original post was just so full of 'what the clinician did wrong', 'what the other spectators did wrong', and nothing of 'how I could have made it better' nor even the slightest hint of 'gee, hindsight is 20/20' or 'How not to behave at a clinic'. sylvia



  6. #26

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    see below
    Your village is calling. Apparently their idiot is missing!



  7. #27

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    Ignore my first post...

    Actually as I stated, that heavens the OP posted...why??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo Azure View Post
    The very, very worst thing is that all those people who really don't have a clue that what was going on was "bad." When they get their next "project" to break to drive, they will all be able to do it "themselves."
    .
    Can you imagine the unknowing following this clown's techniques??????
    Kim
    Your village is calling. Apparently their idiot is missing!



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    14,382

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    I have made mistakes, ample plenty. Let Doug Milholland, reiner-trainer extraordinaire, run my horse completely out of air. I learned from that, yes ma'am I did. need more examples, heaven knows I have them.

    My bigger issue is NOT that mistakes were made or allowed, mid-clinic. My issue is the virgin 3 YO tossed onto the fire. That's not a small mistake. That's a huge fat hole in the bucket of common sense. First time in the bridle let's ask her to back up (consent & yield to pressure) whilst pushing a cart backwards (moving into pressure). Yeah, don't you agree that's not a SMALL mistake to make?

    I won't say more b/c there's no need to pile on. But if you are critical of my concerns, then perhaps the shoe fits? I don't know. I know I would NEVER EVER EVER dream of coming anywhere close to replicating the OP's mistake. Been into horses too long. Know better. Can't wrap my brain around someone who ought to know better by now, not. Just can't.



  9. #29

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    WOW. What Katarine said.



  10. #30
    Join Date
    May. 3, 2006
    Posts
    11,568

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartfall View Post
    AF--

    Hind sight is a wonderful thing--shouldas don;t count. You did what you did and have learned from it. This is life and life is not perfect. Thank you for sharing a horrific experience--

    And to all who are seem to want to place blame--not one of you can honestly say you have never done something with your horse that you regret. It is kinda like the driver who says they have never had a run away or an accident.
    I think its somewhat unreasonable and ironic to try to make those who have pointed out the obvious feel somewhat guilty or worthy of shame.

    Likewise I don't think its a case of "blame". Though if the cap fits, then wear it. Its about understanding what went wrong and accepting responsibility and learning from the experience.

    As an owner YOU are responsible for the total management of YOUR horse. Accepting personal responsibility seems to be something that in modern times folks struggle to cope with and trying to find someone to blame seems all too often to be an approach to alleviate the conscience and prevent learning.

    However I've got to say that the story as related isn't a complex one which required the benefit of hindsight to foresee the outcome.

    I actually never even bothered to read to the end of the original posting (and still haven't!) because the disaster was set up and could be predicted right from the onset. I merely looked at the web site and just read the first paragraphs and started "tutting" till I lost the will to read on!

    I drone on about safety with carriage driving and risk assessment and taking action to mitigate risk.

    This approach should be fundamental to the way that a carriage driver thinks.

    Too often folks post about accidents and say "well you learn from your mistakes". And of course that is something that its prudent to do.

    However REALLY clever folks learn from the mistakes of others: they learn the fundamentals and understand the risks and their limitations and what can go wrong and where they could have pitfalls BEFORE. That alleviates the possibility that a lot of mistakes can ever even happen.

    I still struggle to even begin to understand how someone who claims to be a driver and has driven CDE competition can even begin to think that this was appropriate.

    However I'm getting VERY cynical in my old age and experience tells me that when folks say they're experienced drivers that often what they mean is that they've some time under their belts but their experience might all be bad practice and whilst they've served time, they lack fundamental knowledge.

    Indeed I've even changed the name of my "beginners driving lesson" so as not to 'offend' those who've served time. And I've stopped being gob-smacked when those who've served time don't even know how a harness is to be properly set up, a carriage balanced and fitted and a horse put to!



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2003
    Location
    MI USA
    Posts
    7,325

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    [QUOTE=Thomas_1;2685504
    However REALLY clever folks learn from the mistakes of others: they learn the fundamentals and understand the risks and their limitations and what can go wrong and where they could have pitfalls BEFORE. That alleviates the possibility that a lot of mistakes can ever even happen.

    I still struggle to even begin to understand how someone who claims to be a driver and has driven CDE competition can even begin to think that this was appropriate.

    However I'm getting VERY cynical in my old age and experience tells me that when folks say they're experienced drivers that often what they mean is that they've some time under their belts but their experience might all be bad practice and whilst they've served time, they lack fundamental knowledge.

    And I've stopped being gob-smacked when those who've served time don't even know how a harness is to be properly set up, a carriage balanced and fitted and a horse put to![/QUOTE]


    Thomas, I can relate to everything you wrote, almost exactly what I would have posted. I saved above, the words that hit closest to home.

    I try to listen and learn from those relating an experience. I don't want to experience what disaster happened to them. Not repeat a poor choice they made, now that I know how it went wrong. I really hate accidents, which didn't have to happen, if someone had been paying better attention.

    Could be I have hung around with too many people willing to jump right in on the newest idea passed along to them. I watch, but don't want to be the first to experiment with it until some others have proven the success of method.

    I love clinicians who explain what will happen before demonstrating. Methods are clear, easy to use, let the horse be successful in a non-traumatic way. Best are when horse just goes easily thru the exercise, comes out smarter in knowledge. Totally painless for all involved.
    I just can't see why someone would offer up their darling to something they totally disapprove of? I have refused to do things I thought would not be successful now, at a clinic setting. Perhaps after learning many other things earlier in clinic. She was tired. Horse was just not ready for more knowledge at that time. We just stood back and watched others do the exercise. I will be taking this horse home, living with him for a long time in the future. I don't want him needing fixing from this experience. I want both of us having a good time there, all forward learning. No fights or frights.

    I also have gotten much more cynical about folks and their horse experiences, knowledge depths. There really are not that many who go beyond book work, put in enough time to learn enough anymore. No depth to them. Or they are learning from their mistakes, a bad method, yet don't want to change. Going back to the words of Don's Country Song, "Don't call him a Cowboy, until you see him ride." Anybody can own the horse, buy the equipment, wear the outfit. Watch them interact with the animal, driving or riding, before you decide if they are more than just a horse owner. It's easy to "Talk the talk" but can they "Walk the walk" of a real horse person? Get the horse out and use him safely, wisely, work with him in whatever discipline they are trying to excel at? Even the fun driver, fun rider, tries to do it well, learn good methods so both person and horse have a good time, safely.

    I have given up being surprised by almost anything people do around horses. I would be in a constant state of amazement, shock. Now I am more often surprised when someone does a wise choice! It happens less and less. I am overly careful in gatherings of horses and folks, don't want to be surprised. I do speak up, in driving or riding groups, if I see something that needs attention. Sometimes information, suggestion is welcomed, other times not, but I keep trying. I would feel very bad if someone got hurt from ignoring their problem.
    My daughter is much the most closely observed, frequently corrected child, in her horse group activities, horse handling at home. I don't want bad things to happen to her, so she can't do the "fun stuff" she sees the other kids doing with their horses. Part of having a parent who DID do the dumb things as kid, got hurt, knows NOW how bad they were on my young or untrained horses. My parent didn't know, and got "EVERYBODY does that" if she protested. Of course daughter hasn't had to be treated by the medics at these activities as some of the other kids have, no ER visits. She is reaching an age where she is observing poor actions resulting in bad happenings without me pointing them out. Steering clear of potential problem situations. Guess that means some learning is sinking in.

    Do be careful. Less and less folks who will put in the training or learning time to get the results anymore.



  12. #32
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    May. 3, 2006
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    11,568

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodhors View Post
    I love clinicians who explain what will happen before demonstrating.
    I do the why before the what usually. And unless its something urgent, I always do a Why after a What.

    I also have gotten much more cynical about folks and their horse experiences, knowledge depths. There really are not that many who go beyond book work, put in enough time to learn enough anymore. No depth to them. Or they are learning from their mistakes, a bad method, yet don't want to change.
    I estimate that 80% of the driving horses I've had in to re-school have nothing wrong with them at all other than they're harnessed or put to incorrectly and so basically I just adjust everything so its right and put them to in the proper position using correct adjustments to a carriage that fits them and they NEVER EVER do anything wrong.

    So I don't even get to see what their owners tell me is wrong.

    And the other 20% have been spoilt by something that has been done to them and for which their owner is entirely responsible.

    I get a lot which come to be "re-done" - having been elsewhere "for 6 weeks" to be put to harness. Indeed that's become a bit of a joke here. When folks ring up and do the "how long will you take and how much is it?" and then after I talk through my approach and what they do, if they dismiss everything and merely say "oh... so and so charges £500 and does it in 6 weeks", I usually say "yes I know I've had them in here afterwards" If they push on about time and money then I retort with "well go there and we'll most likely see you later"

    It's easy to "Talk the talk" but can they "Walk the walk" of a real horse person?
    You're absolutely right though even through the written 2 way communication and spoken word you can make a pretty darned accurate assessment of knowledge base. Whilst those good with books might be able to write a huge summary of how to do something, if you probe theirs obviously NO substance.

    I like to think I've a VERY good bovine excrement detector.

    Some time ago I suggested it might be good to get organised with folks from here with a chat on msn which I thought would be a great opportunity to get to know each other better and also to chat about experiences etc. If folks are interested, lets get it sorted?

    I have given up being surprised by almost anything people do around horses.
    I'm no longer surprised, though I am often shocked!

    My daughter is much the most closely observed, frequently corrected child, in her horse group activities, horse handling at home.
    To end this posting on a lighter note....

    True story: Susan was riding out having some "girlie time" with the 2 daughters and I was "babysitting" the grand-children. They were up Flodden Hill and could hear some noise in the distance and were perplexed as to what it was, then they realised it was a helicopter and quite close by and beneath the height they were at. There's been a few riding accidents in the UK when helicopters just "appear" and spook horses and a couple of notable deaths and Susan said "oh girls be careful, its a helicopter and I think its below us". Tracey (my eldest) said, "it will be dad that's chartered it for the riding police, to make sure we've all got our thumbs up and are sitting straight"



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,268

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    op-- i cant beleive that gut instinct was calling you and didnt listen to it

    i would never have put my horses in that situation ever
    and commonsnse when 1st arrvied would have told me to run not walk away


    if you driven at cde level then you should know that it takesmany months to trian a horse
    in driving or riding

    and please let me tell you something you might thik it hasnt up set your horses
    but beleive me it has-- they have long menories for things that arnt perticularly nice
    i should know i have re - hab many that have mental trama by things like you have stated been done to them its both mental and physical -- they will rememebr and next time you try to do something perhaps out of the orm they are going to say a big fat NO
    just remeber what you took them to then you are going to have to work on it
    and beleive me this could possibale set any goals you had for these two
    further back -- and it wiil take heaps of time to get and gain there cnfidence and trust in you--


    i also didnt read it all as it was so off -- why pay 300.00 for rubbish
    and if hes rough then thats abusive as you have described many things that are barbaric
    and if i was thre then my equine head would this has to be reoprted as cruelty and not a clinic


    most people i know that do clinic are there to encoruage and help you with
    your hores be it ridden or driven - and if i and when i attened driving clinics
    it was to show you how to perform a movement -- or correct a movement
    and whats to be expected if you have horses learning to go out into competitions
    and have plenty of practices with your own pony or ponies

    i i just cant get it thorugh my head you didnt listen to yourself and put your own ponies up for such -- abusive behaviour

    sorry but it just lay with me -you obvously feel quilty hence the post and warning as you have thought about your actions-- but the ponies are the ones that neeed lots of tlc and so much more encoruaement how thats going to effect you r plans in future with them depends if they have wor the expreience well or not--- older ne might have got away with it maybe but the younger one---- i dont know -- horses sleep thing you know



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2002
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    Delaplane, VA, USA
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    906

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    Having had to extricate myself and my horse from a few situations I did not think were going well I have learned to set things up going into a new clinic or lesson situation so that I will be able to make a relatively graceful exit if things are not as I hoped -- and I have no hesitation using it if I think I need to. I always pay up front -- very awkward to leave unless you have paid, you can ask for a refund later if you want -- much less important than getting yourself and your horse out. Before we get going, I also set the trailer up for leaving so I can simply say I'm sorry, this isn't quite what I had in mind today, load my horse and leave without confrontation or explanations. If there is the remotest chance the horse won't load without help, I take help. I do this no matter who I am going to work with if I have not worked with them before -- no matter how big a name or reputation -- I want to be able to remove my horse easily and quickly without a scene. We are responsible for every step our horses take and, while mistakes are inevitable, doing your best to make the right decisions every day regardless of other pressures is all you can do.
    Kate



  15. #35
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    Jun. 3, 2003
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    Aberdeen, NC, USA
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    3,752

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    Quote Originally Posted by kt-rose View Post
    -- no matter how big a name or reputation --
    In the dressage world there are many BNT I wouldn't let NEAR one of my horses! Unfortunately there are many riders who can look lovely on a trained horse but haven't a clue as to how to actually train the horse. Or they're OK with a horse who reacts as the book predicts, but are totally lost with a horse that behaves differently. I can only guess it's the same in the driving world. I actually turned down an Olympic rider once who wanted to take my stallion and show him. She's one of the 'pretty' riders with questionable training methods - someone who was interested in furthering herself and not someone who really loved the horse. Instead we stayed with the amateur who loved the horse and cared for him accordingly. Didn't get the international recognition maybe but my horse was happy and I could sleep at night.

    My horses come first. Period. I don't care who it is, if I think what he/she is doing is wrong or unsafe for my horse then I stop it even if the method has worked on other horses. Afterall, I am the customer. I'd always try to be nice about it, of course, because as the old saying goes "You meet everyone in life twice... once going up and once coming down" and the horse world is really quite a small place. Nonetheless I've put many years into breeding these wonderful animals and i'm not about to let anyone head them down the wrong path; I go with my gut.
    Pat Belskie - ASHEMONT Farm

    http://www.ashemont.com
    Ashemont2@gmail.com



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2006
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    718

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    Why would you wait in line for your horses to be abused? Would you jump off a bridge cause everyone did it?

    If your horse is afraid of plastic bags why would you "desensitize her" with her in harness tied to PVC and plastic bags? Every other horse had it done before you, its not like you didn't know it was coming...I don't remember Thomas using this method. I'm of the group that a horse should be taught to be calm in harness, desensitize out of harness at first so he doesn't fear driving.

    When I read this, you did write it real well, very suspenseful, but the ending was alittle predictable. Your just lucky none of yours were hurt.

    We all have done what you did, but 2 days is along time to let it go on. I carry the guilt of watching my children get belittled and not cared for at preschool. They were professionals, they had PHD's, they knew what they were doing, but it did take alot of courage to pull them from preschool (more courage to give up my job). Its hard when its your horse but even tougher when its your kids, and noone has a right to abuse them! Lord knows I'm certainly not going to pay them to do it!

    My kids were not scarred, and your ponies will get over it, but next time don't hesitate to walk!
    The View from Here



  17. #37
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    I had hoped this would die so I wouldn't be tempted to post. But here I am.

    We are responsible for our horses welfare and it's up to us to keep them from abusive or idiotic 'situations'. The OP's post had me cringing from beginning to end.



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