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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2003
    Location
    Denton, MD. USA
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    300

    Default

    Love your post Kate. I am way too full of piss and vinegar and you do a much better job than I at relaying info. to naysayers.
    I just have to say that until you have dealt with and ridden young stallions (and believe me I love them) you don't have any business giving any opinions on this topic. You have something to say.....come on over to my place and I will put you up on one!
    Ursula



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
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    2,794

    Default

    We have moved on. There have been some changes implemented - thanks to a handful of people that stood up and demanded it. Most feel that the changes were necessary and are a good thing. I boggles my mind that some of you don't feel that they were necessary at all. But then, those people are the same ones who say it was all gossip even though it was independently verified AND there was video also verified.

    Hopefully, this test will be very good. And those that like to tie their horses head to the saddle and chase them around won't be allowed to do that anymore.



  3. #43
    studslave Guest

    Default

    Nice to see we can move forward. Lets hope its good for all involved so it can continue to approve domestic stallions as well as ones brought here for the US breeders.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2005
    Location
    McMinnville, Oregon
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    312

    Default Foxdale Farm - Bill

    Wow! I feel like I tuned in late to the Jerry Springer show that was about my stallion and me! Fist fights, name calling, lawsuits threatened... of course, all done decently and in the good order of the Classical Sporthorse tradition... Classy? I don't know 'bout that but very entertaining I must say! :^) It really got my dander up on several occasions. My heart hasn't beat like that since my first kiss!

    As stallion owners who did send our stallion to the 100 d.t. this year, here is our two cents worth...

    We did our own investigation. We talked and listened to many people. We read and researched. We sought the opinion and input of our breed registry (which in neither of the hosting registries). We considered all the costs - mentally, emotionally, financially, and physically, for our stallion and ourselves.

    We do appreciate that there were those who exposed past problems. Their opinions and information has been duly noted. We heard and received it. We have pondered it. We understood the risks involved. Thank you. It was important and helpful information.

    We also appreciate that there are those who actively worked in a positive way to set up new systems of communication and oversight. We feel VERY comfortable with the level of physical care, nutritional expertise, and access to information and communications. While we still feel a bit of anxiety concerning the test, that is to be expected. It feels like we have sent our boy off to Hogswart for a semester. Of course we have anxiety. But I can pull out my cell phone 24/7 and check up on him. All of our calls or inquiries have been addressed in a professional way and in a timely fashion. The director, the host farm, the vet, the farrier - all have been absolutely superb thus far. We do not have one complaint.

    How will our stallion do? Will he come home sound? What if he doesn't pass? (Apparently, he is "so old" that he either will be handed the victor's crown because of his seniority alone or else he will fall over dead of old age at any moment. He didn't really have much of a choice of when he was born... nor did we have much of a choice of when he could go to the test... 2007 was the first opportunity WE had to send him.)

    It is a bit frustrating and disconcerting that some feel the freedom to post negative comments or opinions about something so precious to us. Especially when it is obvious that they do not have all the information. Nor, does it seem, that they consider the "light" that our stallion might be placed in. We believe that is possible to take a win/win approach to breeding. We need not tear down another stallion in order for our horse to look better. The point of the 100 d.t. is not competition between horses. The point is to reveal his potential as a breeding prospect. A stallion's age does not increase their natural abilities, work ethic or temperament. Hopefully the riders and director of the test are competent enough to know that a younger stallion will react differently than an older one. It isn’t about who can do the highest level dressage move or jump the highest. It is about aptitude. Age reveals aptitude but does not enhance it.

    We respectfully request that our stallion's name (Gatsby) would no longer be used in negative postings. Anyone who has serious concern or questions about how, and why he is attending the 100 d.t. is invited to contact us directly. We love to have open, honest, responsible communication about our stallion.

    It seems to me that those who send their stallions to the test are the ones who are responsible to make the decision for themselves and they WILL live by the consequences of that choice.

    So, yes, we thank those who have worked hard to make positive changes. We also are grateful that the past mistakes have been brought into the light so that they can be corrected. It does seem like it is time to take the opportunity of this forum to move our collective passion for breeding excellent horse forward in a positive direction. Perhaps we should have a moratorium on re-hashing old news until we can review the results, both good and bad, of this current testing? That seems reasonable. After all, the only thing we can do right NOW, is wait and see. What is true will be revealed - good or bad - it will ALL come into the light.

    Until then, thanks again to all who have participated in making the 2007 test a good experience for us so far. Whether you did so by revealing areas that needed attention or if you were part of the creative and positive solution. We appreciate your efforts and input.

    Thanks,
    Bill and Lori



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    Brownsburg, VA
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    3,103

    Default

    Bill...thank you! I was beginning to feel like the lone SO ranger.

    I hope the young woman that came to visit Gatsby on 8/29 when I was there went ahead and booked to him after what she saw. Your stallion is the very soul of kindness.

    Hope to see you, if not next week at the mid-test, at the finals.

    Warm and encouraging thoughts to you and Lori.

    Kate
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2005
    Location
    McMinnville, Oregon
    Posts
    312

    Default Foxdale Farm - Bill

    Kate,

    Thank you for your kind words. The young woman sent us the money on that very day! She also found the director, rider and grooms very helpful, polite and welcoming. They did not do anything necessarily to promote our boy but they were helpful and we are appreciative. She said that she talked to another stallion owner who also was very helpful and welcoming. Perhaps that was you. If so, thanks for your efforts.

    Unforunately, we will not be at the mid-term... Time and distance does not afford us that opportunity but we certainly are committed to being there in November.

    Thanks again for your encouraging words.

    Bill
    Last edited by Foxdale Farm; Sep. 13, 2007 at 03:43 PM. Reason: spelling/clarification



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
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    2,794

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    Bill, I do wish you luck with your stallion and I wish ahf luck with her stallion as well.

    Unfortunately, by sending your stallion to a 100 day testing, you no longer get to determine the what, how, and why your stallion is being discussed - sort of like celebrities who want good promotion but then complain about anything bad. You are not going to be able to control it nor should you. You sent your stallion there and he will now be discussed, the good, the bad and the ugly. Hopefully there won't be anything other than good things!



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2005
    Location
    McMinnville, Oregon
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    312

    Default Foxdale Farm - Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Bill, I do wish you luck with your stallion and I wish ahf luck with her stallion as well.

    Unfortunately, by sending your stallion to a 100 day testing, you no longer get to determine the what, how, and why your stallion is being discussed - sort of like celebrities who want good promotion but then complain about anything bad. You are not going to be able to control it nor should you. You sent your stallion there and he will now be discussed, the good, the bad and the ugly. Hopefully there won't be anything other than good things!
    Tri...

    Thanks for your well wishes.

    You are correct. We cannot control it. All I/we can do is "respectfully request." All parties have the freedom to choose their actions and conduct. Nevertheless, my invitation to talk one on one, in a private setting, is open to any who might truly desire to participate in a positive way.

    All the best!



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
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    Oh, I agree and I encourage anyone to call and speak with any stallion owner on a one on one basis. However, forums like these do serve as a portal of open communication where merits, ideas, ideals, problems, opinions and etc are shared, examined, discussed, argued and otherwise put forth in the public light much more freely than a one on one conversation would.

    Hmm, much like the "spreading of the word" of what happened at previous 100 day tests worked wonders when "one on one" "positive" communications were met with nothing more than slammed doors and threats of lawsuits.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2001
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    1,376

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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post

    Hmm, much like the "spreading of the word" of what happened at previous 100 day tests worked wonders when "one on one" "positive" communications were met with nothing more than slammed doors and threats of lawsuits.
    For goodness sake, Tri, just drop it. What are you looking for -- pats on the back, like you conquered Voldemort (to use someone's previous analogy)?? Name one thing in life (products, services, personalities...) that couldn't be improved in some respect? The important thing is learning and improving...and not beating a dead horse (so to speak).

    Good luck to all the stallion owners. I visited a stallion test at Paxton Farm a few years ago and I thought it was very interesting and educational. Wish I lived closer to come and watch the last days again. (And I'd be on tranquilizers if I had a stallion in it. I would be so nervous to see how my stallion did!!!)
    "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
    Touchstone Farm
    www.bytouchstonefarm.com



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2005
    Location
    Wellborn, Florida
    Posts
    744

    Default Improvement - great!

    All the positive news from the 100-day testing are encouraging. But I also believe that we should remain vigilant.

    Past problems with the testing have all been connected to one person, the training director. The TD stayed in place. What changed is that he is under more scrutiny, which is apparently preventing some of the gross incidents. Everyone should remember, these changes were forced onto the 100-day testing, it was not the consequence of accepting past mistakes and making voluntary improvements. At this point everybody is hoping that the changes implemented are adequate. If this format is successful for years, then everyone can relax. But it is too early to declare victory. Remember, if one screws up and goes bankrupt, credit will not be available to that person for a long time and then it takes even more time and effort to establish good credit. If easy credit is available to people who do not deserve it, the outcome is negative for everyone.

    I did not want to offend anybody with my comments about Gatsby being 4 or 5 years older than other stallions. It is just a fact and it is also a fact that the test and the scoring was not designed to deal with such differences. As such like most other horses, Gatsby will pass the test with flying colors and gets fully licensed (great, this is one part why the stallion is tested) and it is a positive thing. My point was not that he should not participate. My point was that I do not believe that the scores will be much of a use for a mare owner, since all the scores are with comparison to horses that are less than half his age. So the mare owner will have to rely on other measures, like getting the horse know in person (which is always a very good thing).

    It always boggles my mind when people read more into things that are written down or simple statements of facts make people think that they are being attacked.

    I have always wished well to all the stallions at the testing. If it weren't for a few of us, everything would have stayed the same - more stallions would have been compromised and more stallion owners would have been gone through hell. It seems like things are changing for the better and we should all hope it stays the same way for years to come.

    Andras
    www.prairiepinesfarm.com



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
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    I think the problem is the few here who are posting that there weren't any problems. It is that mentality that is keeping the rancor going. And also, the idea those few are generating that the rest of us didn't work internally using "positive" methods and that we want to tear down the system.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. I think every one of us who started down this path tried to work for the betterment of the system with those in charge of the system. It didn't work. As the Federation's report also stated, EB and Hugh Bellis-Jones would not cooperate with them either. That is a huge problem in my opinion. The changes were not made because they wanted to better the system. The changes were forced on them. They don't like it, didn't want it and definately don't want anyone telling them they have to change it. That is the environment we are operating in to 100 day test our American stallions.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2005
    Location
    Oxford, USA
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    3,735

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    Why in 2007 does it take 100 days to figure out which stallion is best? Haven't the Deutsch registries gone more and more to the 30/70 route or performance? What are the costs to the stallion owner over there versus over here?

    Wasn't the original purpose of 100 days to measure feed efficiency?
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2005
    Location
    McMinnville, Oregon
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    312

    Default Foxdale Farm - Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    Why in 2007 does it take 100 days to figure out which stallion is best? Haven't the Deutsch registries gone more and more to the 30/70 route or performance? What are the costs to the stallion owner over there versus over here?

    Wasn't the original purpose of 100 days to measure feed efficiency?
    Anne,

    I cannot answer your interesting questions, perhaps others can. However, I don't think that the purpose of the 100 d.t. is to "figure out which stallion is the best."

    My understanding it that the purpose of the 100 d.t. is to judge each individual stallion's aptitude for dressage and jumping, their temperament, their work ethic and trainability, so that their viability as a breeding prospect will be revealed.

    I would be interested to learn about your other questions though.

    Bill



  15. #55
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    Feb. 5, 2003
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    Aren't all the stallions graded against each other though? Sort of like a bell curve? Meaning a stallion may score very high in a 100dt with average performing stallions but lower if he went to a test that had some really steller individuals. So one score may mean different things from test to test depending on the overall quality of the group of stallions going through at that time.



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,409

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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    Why in 2007 does it take 100 days to figure out which stallion is best?
    Reality is that a competent trainer can thoroughly evaluate temperament, gaits, stable behavior, jumping ability, rideability, trainability, etc within about a week at most. Then we get back to the question of is it about getting a stallion properly trainied to be tested?, or is it really a test? If it IS a test, then 100 days, or 70, or even 30 is not needed if a stallion has been trained before being tested.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    14,409

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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Aren't all the stallions graded against each other though? Sort of like a bell curve? Meaning a stallion may score very high in a 100dt with average performing stallions but lower if he went to a test that had some really steller individuals.
    Yes, and if true what we are hearing about THIS testing, some stallions will fail that would have passed in another testing. This is the stradegy used in Europe to send a stallion to a testing that there are lower stallions, to elevate some. We do not have that option here.



  18. #58
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    Mar. 28, 2001
    Location
    Aiken, SC
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    Has anybody done a study to see how the horses that went through the US 100 day test did after the test. Performance career? Breeding career?

    I looked up the winner of the last test on USEF's site. He was hard to find as he isn't recorded with them using the same name as he used in the test. He has NO USEF performance record in any division for 2003- to the present. I realize this doesn't always mean much as eventing results at the lower levels aren't always going to show up. But I do think preliminary and above would be on the USEF record.
    I also looked at some of the other stallions that passed. Some do have performance careers, some seem to have disappeared.

    I have no stake in the test but I'm just curious if it is still a relevant prediction of a stallion's future ability.

    Would a study of how these stallions did post 100 day test be useful?



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2003
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
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    539

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    szipi -
    If my math is correct, in 2004, at the time of the last testing, Gatsby was 5 years old. At the time of the 2002 100-day testing, he was a 3 YO. He had plenty of opportunity to go.
    All Bill is saying by his previous statement is it would best if people would inquired to the stallion owner about why he hadn't been at the earlier testings before you start passing judgement. Bill and Lori did not own Gatsby when the other testings were happening and so could not send him.

    Best of luck to all the stallion and owners! You are all brave souls!

    Monique
    Last edited by Silver Sport Horses; Sep. 14, 2007 at 02:30 PM. Reason: typo
    www.ChampsGuthrie.com - Brown Silver Dapple AQHA & NFQHA stallion
    www.SilverSportHorses.com - Quality Silver Warmblood X Sport Horses



  20. #60
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    Sep. 17, 2007
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    Cloverdale, Ca.
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    Default Stallions will fail???

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    Yes, and if true what we are hearing about THIS testing, some stallions will fail that would have passed in another testing. This is the stradegy used in Europe to send a stallion to a testing that there are lower stallions, to elevate some. We do not have that option here.
    Where are you hearing that some stallions will fail this TEST of 2007 that would have passed in another testing? Am I missing something?
    Chris



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