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  1. #1
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    Default Lets talk about Breed Characteristics of WB's

    What do you think are the main differences in the WB breeds. Do you think some lean more for one dicipline rather than another?

    Now with all the intermixing of breeds, it seems that maybe they are all becoming very similar? Am I wrong?

    Are our WB's starting to be very different than the European bred WB's?

    I know this is a broad topic, but I am interested to see what what people think.

    What is the difference say in the Belgian WB's and the Holsteiner? They seem to have very similar origins. How does that differ from Dutch?

    Educate me.

    I know that the Hannoverians are more "closed" than others to intermixing.. has that led to differences as well?

    What do you think?
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  2. #2
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    IMO The Trakehners seem to be very typey, often lighter than some of the other WBs. Personally, I think they seem to do best in eventing and dressage. Hol are BRILLIANT jumpers, once again,IMO. Most of the time, I feel as though it is not difficult for me to pick out a Hol or a Trakehner. The other WBs are harder for me to distinguish. I love my Trakehners and have spent a lot of time studying them, so, perhaps it is more difficult for someone else who has not spent as much time studying them, to pick one out of a crowd. Holsteiners have a certain look to them to me as well, so, if given a group of, say, 10 WBs and asked to identify, I feel confident about the Trakehner and Holsteiner, even the American bred ones. I have no idea if I answered your question thought.
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  3. #3
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    The different studbooks are all pretty much looking for the same type of horse. There are subtle preference between the studbooks, but many use breeding stock from many different registries.

    MOST of us can no longer distinguish where a horse is registered by looking at the individual..or even by looking at the pedigree.

    With the exception of the Trakehner ofcourse!



  4. #4
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    Bugs - you can prob spot the TK easier because they are closed book, so their "look" is more ... what is the word?... "known??" I'm having a blonde moment and can't think of how to explain what I'm thinking. The other stud books allow the other registeries to be approved into their registery so you get an intermingeling of blood/type/temperment etc from all the "breeds". I say it this way since, with the exception of TK, the other registeries are just that, registeries, not breeds (I think, or does Hol allow others to be approved??).
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  5. #5
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    The Dutch Warmblood is based on the native Dutch breed the Gelderlander, the the classic Gelderlander is a solid built chestnut horse with a blaze and 4 white stockings that moves with power from both ends. The Gelderlander is a dual purpose breed that should be suited for both riding and driving, the Dutch Warmblood is taking the Gelderlander base and speciaizing it for riding, the Dutch Harness Horse is taking the Gelderlander base and specializing it for driving. At least in the pedigrees of my horses, which are Dutch Harness Horses, the Dutch were mostly using Oldenburg and Selle Francais blood in the early-mid 20th century for outcross blood, through horses like the Oldenburgs Gambo by Grusus and the dam sire of Graaf Van Wittenstein, Diedrich, and the most notable Selle Francais would be L'Invasion. I think the love of the harness horse caused the Dutch to gather some of the German and French coaching blood that was loosing favor in its home countries and makes the Dutch horses a bit different from some of the other continental types. Maybe I am completely off base but that is what I have observed



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    The Dutch Warmblood is based on the native Dutch breed the Gelderlander, the the classic Gelderlander is a solid built chestnut horse with a blaze and 4 white stockings that moves with power from both ends. The Gelderlander is a dual purpose breed that should be suited for both riding and driving, the Dutch Warmblood is taking the Gelderlander base and speciaizing it for riding, the Dutch Harness Horse is taking the Gelderlander base and specializing it for driving. At least in the pedigrees of my horses, which are Dutch Harness Horses, the Dutch were mostly using Oldenburg and Selle Francais blood in the early-mid 20th century for outcross blood, through horses like the Oldenburgs Gambo by Grusus and the dam sire of Graaf Van Wittenstein, Diedrich, and the most notable Selle Francais would be L'Invasion. I think the love of the harness horse caused the Dutch to gather some of the German and French coaching blood that was loosing favor in its home countries and makes the Dutch horses a bit different from some of the other continental types. Maybe I am completely off base but that is what I have observed
    I personally love the dutch type, and yes I can tell a difference in Dutch horses from some of the other WB's. I like the old type of Dutch a lot. Some of them didn't have the best heads originally though, that has been improved in modern breeding.

    What about French Selle Francais vs others?
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  7. #7
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    I'm rather new to wb breeding. I started out with arabs (which I still have and love). I didn't want to move away from the arabs, but I wanted more size and competetiveness in the open show/market arena. So, I decided to cross my arabs to wb's. I did a lot of research and looked at tons of pictures/videos. What I noticed is that Dutch & Swedish wb's both have a more level flatter topline (which crosses well with the flatter more level arab topline). I feel that I can usually pick out DWB & SWB from others fairly consistantly just by looking at their topline.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by acottongim View Post
    Bugs - you can prob spot the TK easier because they are closed book, so their "look" is more ... what is the word?... "known??" I'm having a blonde moment and can't think of how to explain what I'm thinking. The other stud books allow the other registeries to be approved into their registery so you get an intermingeling of blood/type/temperment etc from all the "breeds". I say it this way since, with the exception of TK, the other registeries are just that, registeries, not breeds (I think, or does Hol allow others to be approved??).
    You're right on because Traks are a BREED (closed book) and WBs are NOT. They are a type and reflect the conformation the panel wants to register at any time. Because they are a type not a true breed their offspring can be more variable. They breed across registries further blurring any distinctions.

    Full disclosure: Yes I am biased, breeding a closed-for-over-400-years breed, Lipizzans. I have bred BWP and OLDNA too and love a good WB--I just can't call them a breed and think questions like the OP's can't be answered.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TouchstoneAcres View Post
    You're right on because Traks are a BREED (closed book) and WBs are NOT. They are a type and reflect the conformation the panel wants to register at any time. Because they are a type not a true breed their offspring can be more variable. They breed across registries further blurring any distinctions.
    Just to make sure... isn't that what I said?? (about TK??). I said they are a breed, vs the other WB which are registeries... except I wasn't sure if HOL also is closed?? The TK has been a breed since what, the 1700's?? so I would say that their type isn't all that varialbe except that they have become more "modern" over the years and less heavy. The only outcross that is allowed with TK is the occasional T'bred or Arabian (approved). Or are your last two sentences directed toward the other WB registeries?

    Here is a funny for you... I have a filly that is by Oskar out of a 3/4 T'bred, 1/4 TK mare (Oskar is 1/4 Arab, the rest is all TK). I went into a recent show and the judge (who LOVES Hannos) stated (not asked) when we walked up "oh, another Hannovarian!" (and he said it with a very happy/proud note in his voice).
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  10. #10
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    I think you perhaps might tell the difference in the horses in europe to some extent. But not in America (with the exception of trakehners).

    When the BWP started in Belgium, they imported a whole bunch of hanoverians. In Hanover, they do NOT have the same 50% hanoverian blood rule that the AHS has here in America so a hanoverian in Germany might only be 10% or less hanoverian blood. Almost every studbook uses holsteiner blood and selle francais blood to improve their jumper lines. In America, there are still a lot more TB mares being bred into warmblood breeding than ANYTHING else.

    Warmbloods are named for their region. No one in America is breeding "true" hanoverian, dutch, belgian, or whatever warmbloods. I laugh when a neophyte breeder tries to tell me that.

    There is a poll on this forum that proves that most go to whatever inspection is closest and convenient, not because there is a particular "type" they are breeding for.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    I think you perhaps might tell the difference in the horses in europe to some extent. But not in America (with the exception of trakehners).

    When the BWP started in Belgium, they imported a whole bunch of hanoverians. In Hanover, they do NOT have the same 50% hanoverian blood rule that the AHS has here in America so a hanoverian in Germany might only be 10% or less hanoverian blood. Almost every studbook uses holsteiner blood and selle francais blood to improve their jumper lines. In America, there are still a lot more TB mares being bred into warmblood breeding than ANYTHING else.

    Warmbloods are named for their region. No one in America is breeding "true" hanoverian, dutch, belgian, or whatever warmbloods. I laugh when a neophyte breeder tries to tell me that.

    There is a poll on this forum that proves that most go to whatever inspection is closest and convenient, not because there is a particular "type" they are breeding for.
    That may be true here in America now, but originally there were differences.

    The Selle Francais for example is still very different than an Oldenburg. Selle Francais are primarily jumping horses. Oldenburgs originally were carriage horses as well as sport/riding horses. There is a difference. The royal carriage horses for the UK were Oldenburgs.

    When I see a Dutch WB come from Europe, they look very "Dutch" to me. I can tell. The ones that have been bred here, don't have that look. I recently saw a gorgeous imported gelding that just made me remember how much I loved that breed, and still do.. when I first saw them coming over here from Europe in the early 80's. Back then too, the Hannoverians were much heavier. I know that lightening the Hannoverian has been very much a goal of the modern breeders... the breed standard has changed.

    Someone recently told me that some Holsteiners tend to have a flattish rump? What is meant by that. I hadn't noticed this. A lot are awesome jumpers.
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  12. #12
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    Are Queenie's carriage horses really Oldenburg? All the Blues and Royals horses are Irish. The B and R are the ridden escort. I'd have thought her carriage horses would be Irish too?

    Here we go: (Don't you just love Google?)

    Quote: "For most of the year the stables are home to the working horses that play an important role in The Queen's official and ceremonial duties. They are mainly Cleveland Bays, the only British breed of carriage horse, and the Windsor greys, which by tradition always draw the carriage in which The Queen is travelling. As they may be on duty, undergoing training or having a well-deserved rest away from London, the horses are not always on view."

    This is saying that the ridden horses are sourced differently from the carriage horses. But they still aren't Oldenburgs.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    Are Queenie's carriage horses really Oldenburg? All the Blues and Royals horses are Irish. The B and R are the ridden escort. I'd have thought her carriage horses would be Irish too?

    Here we go: (Don't you just love Google?)

    Quote: "For most of the year the stables are home to the working horses that play an important role in The Queen's official and ceremonial duties. They are mainly Cleveland Bays, the only British breed of carriage horse, and the Windsor greys, which by tradition always draw the carriage in which The Queen is travelling. As they may be on duty, undergoing training or having a well-deserved rest away from London, the horses are not always on view."

    This is saying that the ridden horses are sourced differently from the carriage horses. But they still aren't Oldenburgs.
    I have a book that states that the Oldenburg was used as a carriage horse and were the Royal Carriage horses at least at one time.
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  14. #14
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    Just because something has been printed, doesn't always mean it's accurate.

    There are alot of interchangeables in the wb's, but I think some are a bit stricter about what they use. The Holsteiner registry seems to be clinging to just using "Holsteiner" lines - which will eventually have to be outcrossed. Oldenburg and Hanoverian seem to use alot of the same lines. The Dutch have used alot of Holsteiners and now seem to be using a few other German lines. The Swedish seems to be their own lines and stay a bit isolated, although I don't know their rules, so I guess they can be interchanged. The Danish have used alot of Trakehner as well as other German bloodlines. Each registry seems to have a direction they want to pursue and they use that to decide at each year's inspection what horses will best help them achieve those goals. They all still use Thoroughbreds pretty liberally, including Trakehners.
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  15. #15
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    I can pick out a Selle Francais horse, just by the type of movement, and they are normally longer backed and maybe not as pretty as the other WBs. I find Dutch horses are the 'typiest' and prettiest w/the nicest heads excluding the Trakheners w/the Hannos closely behind. I want to say Hanno's are slightly heavier than the dutch horses and 'rounder'. Holsteiner's are the heaviest, and the older style ones are also on the long backed side.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellybean83 View Post
    I can pick out a Selle Francais horse, just by the type of movement, and they are normally longer backed and maybe not as pretty as the other WBs. I find Dutch horses are the 'typiest' and prettiest w/the nicest heads excluding the Trakheners w/the Hannos closely behind. I want to say Hanno's are slightly heavier than the dutch horses and 'rounder'. Holsteiner's are the heaviest, and the older style ones are also on the long backed side.
    I disagree, I have a SF that is very pretty, he's also much larger than most. He's a bright bay very handsome. Alme was a handsome horse as well.

    They aren't hunters though if you are talking about "pretty hunters". I know plenty of jumpers that are pretty that aren't hunters.
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  17. #17
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    I also disagree about the Holsteiners, now they aren't the heaviest, historically they were heavier but that has changed dramatically.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    Just because something has been printed, doesn't always mean it's accurate.
    I agree but this happens to be in a source I do trust. It's in my Encyclopedia of the Horse, and is not just some little publication I would brush off as inaccurate.
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  19. #19
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    It does make some sense the the Queen would use Oldenburgs, after all her husband's royal family is the House of Oldenburg (Mountbatten is the anglesized version of Battenberg). Here is an article that speaks of the Queen's grey Oldenburg team http://www.britishdrivingsociety.co....ohn_miller.htm Hopefully Thomas1 will see this thread, he will know for sure what the breeding is of the Windsor Greys.



  20. #20
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    Now, to me, and this is STRICTLY MY OPINION, Holsteiners are very round looking to me. In general, they seem to have the crestier necks, the rounder rumps and some even look like giant sport ponies to me, which, IMO, is not a bad thing. They are athletic and surprisingly, to me, cat-like. When I think of Holsteiners, I do not think of a leggy horse, I think of a more substantial horse. That is not to say that there are not leggy Holsteiners out there, especially the modern types. Trakehners look very typey to me with a lovely head, nice length of neck and a very nice, slightly refined body type, not as round as a Holsteiner. Many Hannos look like Trakehners on steroids to me but that is being very general and I have seem some VERY substantial Hannos as well. IME, one of the most substantial breeds I have has experience with are the Dutch. The ones I have experienced have had a more "noble" head, some are not attractive, some are attractive but large, but it seems that their heads match well with their body types. They also tend to have HUGE feet, which is not a bad thing. I must reiterate though, this is MY experience.
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