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  1. #41
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    Thank you, RPS. I think my colt is pretty cute, too. I think also, that the WOW factor is pretty subjective and it's probably a good thing. Otherwise we'd all be running to the same stallions and messing up the gene pool.

    Mary has, BTW, finally gotten around to making some pretty nice DVS's and videos. Otherwise phoebe is right on the money when it comes to Mary "not being one for marketing." She has always ridden stallions and bought for her own use, never with any intention of attracting outside mares. I had to do quite a bit of research on the Verband website even to learn of Cunningham's existence, had to call Germany to get the necessary contact information, and bred to Cunningham on the basis of Felix Einhaus' recommendation, video footage from the 3 year approvals, and a series of wonderful conversations with Mary, who I've found to be a wonderful person tirelessly dedicated to the best interests of her horses. Beyond that, I strongly recommend calling Mary if you want to learn the reasons why she has not presented Cunningham. Sure beats "I've heard a lot of stuff.... Is it true? Who knows..." IMHO.

    For my own part, I had no trouble whatever believing Mary's explanations for avoiding inspections. The mare I've been breeding to Cunningham is an ISR/OLD premium/approved TB, but I found the site and procedures at her inspection so unsavory that I never attended another. If Mary finds a registry, inspection site, etc., that meets with her approval-- which is, apparently in the works-- I might consider presenting a horse again. Otherwise, I couldn't care less. I've had many inquiries about my Cunningham colt from superb horsepeople and not one of them has cared about papers. In my experience, getting WB approval/premium award on my TB mare has been a complete waste of time and money-- unless you want to count its usefulness on occasions like this-- and as a learning experience I certainly agree that the inspection I attended would have been a very dangerous one for Mary's stallion: the 3 stallions I saw presented were free jumped in an outdoor arena with perimeter fencing no higher than 3'. Cunningham would have jumped out of that arena in a heartbeat-- hardly a good situation from a safety/liability standpoint! Could such a situation do harm to Mary's stallion-- I would definitely say so! Does this stallion need US approval to meet Mary's goals for him?-- not unless she's changed her goals considerably over the past couple years.

    If Cunningham is presented and approved, I can assure you that it will be done out of consideration for those mare owners who truly love Cunningham and also very much want WB registration papers for their babies. It is certainly nothing the stallion himself (or his owner) needs. I just wish mare owners were more appreciative of this fact and not so snarky about a horse who certainly seems to have proved far more re: his talent, soundness, temperament, movement, conformation.... through his show record than could ever be established through any WB inspection I know of.

    Of course, I shouldn't be surprised-- there were some pretty remarkable threads about Popeye K's approval (or lack thereof) , too. First there were all the complaints that he hadn't been "approved" by the "right" registries, then when he was presented, there was all the debate over whether hunters (even those with the strongest performance records out there) were good enough for WB approval anyway!

    Guess it's disagreement that makes keeps the world going around. I'm just pretty sensitive about my kids' Daddy-- extremely proud of him and his career-- and of a stallion owner who's also become a dear friend.
    Last edited by fish; Aug. 11, 2007 at 10:18 AM.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    I think also, that the WOW factor is pretty subjective and it's probably a good thing. Otherwise we'd all be running to the same stallions and messing up the gene pool.
    Could not agree with this more.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RheinlandPfalzSaar View Post
    Could not agree with this more.
    I think we can also agree that finding the right stallion for a particular mare is really what this should be all about. Although Westporte is a very nice stallion, I think he would be a very poor match for my mare, a heavy hunter type TB who needs a long-legged, pretty-fronted stallion like Cunningham to give me the babies of my dreams. Finding a horse by Cassini I (who epitomizes WOW in my eyes!) able to do this has been pretty exciting. It gets my head spinning at times. I recognize, however, that many other people have mares-- especially TB's-- with very different needs.



  4. #44
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    I think we can also agree that finding the right stallion for a particular mare is really what this should be all about.
    I agree with this & know that not every stallion is a match for every mare.

    What I do not agree with is producing more unregistered horses. Unregistered = grade no matter how nice. And before you go jumping down my throat, I own a "grade" WB that I bred. He is by an Alme son o/o a Pregelstrand mare. I went to register him & found the SO didn't pay his fees, so no papers. He's a gelding & has a home for life with me.

    I'm just pretty sensitive about my kids' Daddy
    You're like the one man ad agency for him. I think he's well bred & has proven himself in the ring, but not my taste & I'll leave it at that.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacely View Post
    What I do not agree with is producing more unregistered horses. Unregistered = grade IMO no matter how nice.
    .
    And what's wrong with "grade" horses? It's a tried and true cliche that we don't ride papers. Guess you'd be a whole lot happier, too, if Teddy hadn't been on our Pan Am team, or done what he did at Rolex-- and think that Wynn Norman's breeding operation ought to be condemned for producing "grade" horses like him? I guess Warioto is also not a respectable operation in your book and all those unregistered IHF champions never should have been bred, not to mention all those cross bred ponies who sell for 6 figures on the basis of what they can do in addition to what their families have produced?

    If I sound like a "one man ad agency" for Cunningham, it's because I strongly believe in the honored breeding principle of "breed the best to the best and hope for the best." It doesn't say anything about breeding "the best" if and only if it's attended _______ inspections and possesses _______ papers. I'm certainly not going to limit my breeding choices to horses "approved" by registries which have a history of showing little or no respect for the standards and goals of an arena in which I want my horses to compete! If you have so little faith in your own eye for a good hunter or in the eyes of hunter judges that you feel the need for European approvals in selecting stallions for your hunter mares, by all means continue to do things your way. I would, however, appreciate it if you'd stop tossing nasty insinuations and name-calling (i.e., I gather you do use "grade" as a derogatory term) in the direction of those of us who choose to do things differently.
    Last edited by fish; Aug. 11, 2007 at 01:32 PM.



  6. #46
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    So if you believe you've bred the best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.
    Last edited by spacely; Aug. 11, 2007 at 01:37 PM.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacely View Post


    So if you believe you've bred thge best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.
    My colt (pictured as a late 2 year old) is in my profile with me in the saddle. If you don't like him (or my mare, or Cunningham), that is, IMO, your problem. Our sport is, like dressage, judged subjectively, and these horses have all received very positive attention from people whose opinion I have reason to respect much more than yours.

    That's it for me: time to agree to disagree. I do believe that I've never made a derogatory remark about your horses or anyone else's and have no intention of inviting you to express any more of your nastiness toward mine.



  8. #48
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    by spacely:



    So if you believe you've bred the best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.
    Rude much???
    "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/arnikaelf



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    Concertogrosso "being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover" - a quota? Who decides?
    "Arnika" is right, the Holsteiner Verband decides. Both stallions are over-booked (AI). The last I heard Contender caps at 250 mares per season. He's an EVA shedder, but he still gets a huge number of breeders wanting to breed to him, and as stated above, if a breeder wants to breed to him the first time, or two years in a row, they must use a young stallion first and alternate young and him.

    His son Cristo out of a Carthago dam has been a pretty popular young stallion, see http://www.holsteinerverband.biz/cms...ox=no&pageno=3.

    I don't know what the max amount of mares is for Cassini I.

    According to a Verband employee his extraordinarily fertile brother Cassini II bred some 400+ mares last year.

    So I suppose they make the cut according to how many doses of good semen they think they can get @ each collection from the few stallions that are super coveted.

    Now don't think every stallion in Europe has the number of breedings per year than these guys have. Most have a few, some are a real hard-sell, some have a decent following but nowehere near Contender or Cassini I.

    Anna



  10. #50
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    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. While one stallion works for one person he may not work for another. There are plenty of IHF nominated stallions that are in WB registries, while some are not. The ones that are not are not really hurting much such as Zarr, and Cunningham. Cunningham shows a lot and does quite well. While I think he is beautiful to look at, he was not right for my mare, so I passed. Same with Westporte. I thoght he was very attractive, but again one persons opinion.

    Kind of like the hunters, you win one day and the same trip the next day and you get nothing! All one persons opinion!

    I have never bred before, my mare will be having a foal in Feb by Roc USA. We will see what I get! And yes, there were plenty of debates from a lot of people on him. He did do the 100 day test, but scored low, he is registered, but people still had comments. Oh well! I liked him, so I bred to him.

    Good luck with all your babies! They will all be beautiful in some way registered or not!



  11. #51
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    He appears to be a very handsome and well bred stallion. However you don't seem to understand the approval process, probably because you also seem to hate the European registries. His website indicates he has full approval in Germany with the Holsteiner Verband. He wouldn't have to do the free jumping because of his show record, therefore the comment about the dangerous 3' only fence would not apply. He would have to stand for inspection and be presented on the triangle. The 3' fence comment might apply if a particular registry would want to see his free gaits. He would NOT have to do a 100 Day Test, he's already done one in Germany. If some of the registries are approaching the owner to present him, I just can't imagine why she doesn't unless she hates registries as much as you seem to.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    He appears to be a very handsome and well bred stallion. However you don't seem to understand the approval process, probably because you also seem to hate the European registries. His website indicates he has full approval in Germany with the Holsteiner Verband. He wouldn't have to do the free jumping because of his show record, therefore the comment about the dangerous 3' only fence would not apply. He would have to stand for inspection and be presented on the triangle. The 3' fence comment might apply if a particular registry would want to see his free gaits. He would NOT have to do a 100 Day Test, he's already done one in Germany. If some of the registries are approaching the owner to present him, I just can't imagine why she doesn't unless she hates registries as much as you seem to.
    #1 I don't "hate" the European registries. I just don't care much for people making derogatory remarks simply because other people choose to go about breeding sport horses without going that route. There is a huge difference between "hating" organizations and not finding them particularly useful in the pursuit of one's own goals. (Get nasty enough, though, and don't be surprised if it generates a bit of ill will coming back!)

    #2 Cunningham has never done a 100 DT-- not here, not in Germany. As I said previously, he was imported directly after the 3 year old Verband Stallion Approvals and Auctions. (Interestingly enough, though, German Holsteiner breeders remain very interested in him and his achievements here, so much so that he is featured [with 2 lovely color photos] in a book newly published in Germany on the descendants of Cottage Son xx.)

    #3 As I've now said at least 2 or 3 times, Cunningham's owner has been talking to a few of the registries and is in the process of trying to negotiate presentation/inspection under conditions satisfactory to all concerned.

    #4 It is quite true that I "don't understand very much about the approval process." This is not, however, because I "hate the European registries." It's because I have thus far found them irrelevant to my goals and therefore see no point in learning about all their rules and procedures. Perhaps this will change as more registries become more interested in learning about the h/j world and respecting the needs of that market. We shall see. I for one have been extremely happy to see the KWPN opening a hunter book and giving credit for hunter performance. From my point of view, that's a big step forward from the old position that only performance in the "international" disciplines would count. Who knows what's to come?



  13. #53
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    Well, you sure had me fooled about your opinion of registries and registration, however, from his website
    Cunningham scored 9.0 on type and is approved by the Holsteiner Verband in Germany.
    Since you don't follow the process, the 3 year old approvals are by either a 100 Day Test (several years ago) or a 70 day test. These are lifetime approvals for breeding. Again, all his owner would have to do is present him. He would not have to repeat the 100 Day Test.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  14. #54
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    Cunningham's owner has been talking to a few of the registries
    So what registries are they? Hopefully they are credible ones... You seem to be his personal press agent, so I'd also think you'd be willing to say.

    I have thus far found them irrelevant to my goals
    Fish, exactly what are your goals? To get in the ring? To breed more unregistered horses? If you told us what your, some of us may back off.

    I agree with Tiki. What you post regarding registries fooled me too. You do seem to hate them all & certainly don't understand the process.

    Cunningham is approved. In Germany. It would not be difficult for him to be approved in this country. Is that concept really that hard to understand?
    Last edited by spacely; Aug. 11, 2007 at 11:59 PM.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    Well, you sure had me fooled about your opinion of registries and registration, however, from his website Since you don't follow the process, the 3 year old approvals are by either a 100 Day Test (several years ago) or a 70 day test. These are lifetime approvals for breeding. Again, all his owner would have to do is present him. He would not have to repeat the 100 Day Test.
    And I repeat: Cunningham never did a 100DT-- or a 30 day or 70 day one either. I know this from the stallion's owner. If you have questions about her website, I suggest you call her for clarification.

    Also, the couple from Tennessee who bought Cubito, the champion of the last Verband 3 yo Approvals left him in Germany to do the 100DT AFTER the "Approvals" and after they bought him at auction, so the 100 day testing is apparently not a prerequisite for the 3 yo Approvals.

    In an effort to make myself clear: Mary Slouka, owner of Cunningham, made a different decision from the couple from Tennessee: she imported Cunningham directly after the 3 year old "Approvals" and without him having undergone any 100 day testing.

    (Although I don't follow registry "processes," I do follow horses (and bloodlines) that attract my attention pretty carefully.)

    As for what Cunningham's owner "would have to do" -- or be willing to do-- for approval here, I figure that's between her and the registries. I'm happy to breed to Cunningham and do business with Mary regardless. I think she's done a fantastic job with this horse.
    Last edited by fish; Aug. 12, 2007 at 01:07 AM.



  16. #56
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    Tiki,
    That is not Cunningham's website. He does not have one. That is simply a link designed by the mare owner to showcase who she has bred her mare too. She added the stallion owners contact information. The score could have come from a foal inspection correct? I am certainly no expert on inspections or stallion tests but I seem to remember there being a score for type with the foals.
    At any rate Cunningham is not registered with any of the stallion books. For some this is a deal killer for others it is not it doesn't make him any less of a horse. I can think of quite a few very popular Hunter Sires who not only were not registered but did not perform....Special Event off the top of my head and a number of others who certainly never entered the hunter ring....Voltaire, Rio Grande, Escudo, Alcatraz, Cheenook ect. ect. We will know if a few years what Cunningham's worth is as a sire. You have to decide what you are breeding for is it a foal to sell or a foal to keep and show. Barring some accident a foal that you keep until they are showing will have no need for papers ( I am talking about hunters) and this sort of breeder will consider a stallion like Cunningham breeders who breed to sell the foals will always take issue with his or any other stallions lack of registration as this is a big issue for potential buyers.
    For the life of me I can't understand why threads about this stallion become so ugly. The stallion owner does not post here and she is the only one who can explain why he is not registered. You don't have to agree with her and you don't have to breed to her stallion but you shouldn't jump all over anyone who has chosen to do so. Like Westporte, Paparazzo, Escapade and a long list of other up and coming Hunter Sires time will tell....I am talking about performing over fences not on the line.
    Cunningham has a lot to offer for both hunters and jumpers. He has proven bloodlines. He is a beautiful horse. He has proven that he is sound his show schedule is one that not many would hold up to not just the number of shows but number of divisions. He is well mannered being collected for shipments and still standing in the Model I can't think of any others doing that right now. He is leggy, he is tall, he has a gorgeous head and neck and tremendous scope. He is not a horse that I would breed a mare to if you wanted a hack winning 3' hunter....but he could be a great cross with one



  17. #57
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    I don't know about "stallion books," but do know that Cunningham (like all of Mary's broodmares), is registered with the Holsteiner Verband (Lebensnummer 21 01138 98). He was, in addition, #40 in the sale of "Approved Stallions" held after the Holsteiner Korung of 2000 (so I guess he may have been 2 rather than 3 at the time?), and sold to the USA for 142,000 DM at that sale. This much I learned online from the Holsteiner Verband website when I first went looking for Cassini I sons. I was much more interested in finding those bloodlines and seeing that horse than I was figuring out what "Approved" or "registered" meant-- and I that's still the case. I just don't get the big deal. Like Phoebe, "I can't understand why threads about this horse become so ugly." If you are interested in this stallion, why not ask his owner about him, and if you're not, leave those of us who are happy to have him to do our own thing and pursue our own goals-- whatever they may be?

    As for the sales issue, with all respect to Phoebe, I was receiving inquiries from people interested in buying my Cunningham colt pretty much from the day he was born. Not one of them cared about papers. Keep in mind that hunter breed show people, for example, always keep an eye out for nice youngsters and as a group they don't seem to care any more about papers than H/J riders do. If they did, they wouldn't be breeding to Zarr and paying good $ for his babies.



  18. #58
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    I saw Cunningham in person for the first time today at the Menlo Charity Horse Show. What a gorgeous horse - and he just seemed so calm and relaxed about everything around him. Looked spectacular over the 4' jumps. I'll definitely be watching for his foals in the coming years - will be interesting to see what he produces. He certainly appeared to have a lot of great qualities to pass along.
    "A goal without a plan is just a wish."



  19. #59
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    Young warmblood stallions who pass a stallion inspection in Germany are considered "approved". This approval gives them a temporary breeding license. To keep that breeding license, they have to meet the performance requirements - I believe - by the end of their 6 y/o year. So it sounds as though Cunningham received temporary approval but because he has not met the German WB performance requirements, his breeding license has expired (if he is a '98 model, then his license expired in 2004). My guess is that because he was never performance tested, most registries would want to see him jump if they were to inspect him.

    And for the person that asked "what is wrong with grade horses?" - grade horses rarely have any kind of proof of parentage done on them. That is one major benefit of the warmblood registries. It gives buyers a measure of reassurance that they are in fact buying an offspring of that famous stallion or mare. Also, it is impossible to compile meaningful stats about the best sires, dams, breeders, etc., for a particular discipline when the performance rankings are filled with horses whose parentage is either unknown, or unproven. How, for instance, does a buyer know for certain that the young horse they are paying $$$$$$$ for is REALLY sired by Popeye K, or Westporte, or Cunningham, or Alla'Czar, any of the other heavily touted hunter sires, unless it comes with registration papers backed up by proof of parentage via DNA analysis? I'm not trying to be catty, just explaining why registration papers benefit EVERYONE.



  20. #60
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    Good post DY



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