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  1. #21
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Bath, PA, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by concertogrosso View Post
    Whether you like him or not, you must admit he is bred out of the wazoo, with Cassini I (who btw had a very successful career as an international show jumper, see http://www.holsteinerverband.biz/cms...t=189&pageno=2) to Contender, who never did have a show career but proved his prepotency by his extra-ordinary offspring.

    It is disputable whether Contender or Cassini I is the "most seeked after" sire in Germany (especially Holstein), but both score pretty high in being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover.

    I do not know Cunningham's owners or their politics and goals, but just looking at the horse on paper and his performance record he stands out to me. He may not sire the prettiest head or the snappies knees, but if you look at rideability, scope, conformation and the "big picture"... it's all there? ...again, I have not seen him in person, and once again, it depends on the MARE that you breed to him as to what you get!!!

    Cassini I's full brother Cassini II is offered by frozen semen in US, I have seen him throw a pretty head and "modern type" and the semen, allegedly, is dynamite. Fox Fire Farm has the goods.

    There is also an approved Cassini I son Cascani standing at stud in US, go to http://www.octoberhill.com/cascani.htm and I believe Contigo M is by Cassini I... where is he now???

    Anna
    I "met" Cunningham at Devon. He was done showing, about ready to load up in the van and had a lot of "pinto" markings. LOL. He was, IMO, an absolute gentleman, puppy dog temperament and stood up a most impressive horse. Even with the yellow stains.

    I agree with you about the bloodlines. Cassini I on a Contender mare? Fantastic!

    MHO, I think the hunters are a bit too easy for him, but I'll not begrudge his owner her choice of disciplines for her stallion.

    His type is extraordinary IMO - very modern, upstanding. Not pretty, pretty as many of the modern dressage lines are, but handsome nonetheless.

    He's a nice horse.

    Sue
    "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

    http://www.equiimages.com



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    6,637

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    If I remember correctly, spacely is "not a fan" of Cunniingham because his owner did not rush off to get him approved by any of the US based Euro-registries when she imported him, preferring to prove her horse at the shows doing the job for which she purchased him rather than risking such a valuable horse at a 100 DT.
    That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  3. #23
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    Jun. 27, 2003
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    6,030

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.
    Exactly. It makes me think there is a reason other than "hunter people don't care about papers" or whatever the latest excuse is that he's never been presented in this country. He was rather unimpressive at Devon according to those that saw him there.

    FWIW, I breed for the hunter ring & care about papers.
    Last edited by spacely; Aug. 10, 2007 at 05:31 PM.



  4. #24
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    May. 27, 2007
    Posts
    598

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    Actually, some hunter people do care about papers as they breed retired mares. I know several. And their horses show. And win. And sell with good price tags, etc. (Thus they would seem to be the kind of market an SO might wish to target ).
    Last edited by coriander; Aug. 10, 2007 at 05:12 PM. Reason: typos...



  5. #25
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2003
    Location
    Canada
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    16,272

    Unhappy Cunningham

    Concertogrosso "being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover" - a quota? Who decides?



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    FL
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    3,554

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    The Holsteiner Verband.

    For some of the top stallions, you have to purchase a breeding to a newer Verband stallion and only then will you be allowed to breed a mare to the top guy.

    By the way, I think Cunningham is a lovely stallion and would breed a mare to him in a heartbeat. As stated above, a Cassini I over a Contender??? No problems there! Handsome is just icing on the cake.
    "We don't ride the clock. We ride the horse." Reiner Klimke.
    http://community.webshots.com/user/arnikaelf



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Hurdle Mills, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by EquineLVR View Post
    Good question about Contigo M - he did the 100DT here in the USA in 2000 at Rancho Murieta.

    FISH - might this be the Stallion you were thinking of as he did win the 100 DT that year.
    Yes. That's the one.

    And Cunningham, BTW, has a gorgeous head and neck-- which he very reliably throws. His knees (and hind end, too) are nothin' to sneeze at either. Unfortunately, I no longer have a premium membership, but I have plenty of spectacular photos of Cunningham o/f if anyone wants to email me.



  8. #28
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Hurdle Mills, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.
    I don't bother much with registries, but my understanding is that at least in the US-based registries there's a difference between the 3 y.o. approvals and full licensing given after performance requirements have been satisfied. Over the last few years, Cunningham's owner has frequently been approached by various registries about presenting him and has continually worked to do what she believes to be in the best interests of her wonderful horse. Whether the discussions involved 100 DTing or inspection sites, her primary concern has always been the safety and well being of her stallion. If and when her concerns have been satisfied and her schedule permits, Cunningham will be presented in order to satisfy the desires of mare owners wanting to register their foals. The fact is, however that, especially in the H/J arena, registry approvals, etc., not at the top of most people's priorties lists. If they were anywhere near as meaningful as some of you seem to think they are, Zarr and Popeye K prior to this year would certainly not have enjoyed the popularity that has in fact been theirs.

    If you want more details than that, I suggest you call Cunningham's owner. My patience with these kinds of insinuations is wearing pretty thin.

    Speaking of little details that have aroused my curiousity, however: does anyone happen to know why Westporte would show in the Green Conformation hunters but not show up for the model?

    P.S. I was at Devon, and met many people there who were very positively impressed by Cunningham, comng over to admire him and inquire about him much as Reg apparently did at Pebble Beach. Devon is a tough venue, especially for hunter stallions, and he turned in very respectable rounds. Popeye K didn't exactly show his best at Devon either. Guess that must mean the rest of his record is meaningless, right? How many stallions even qualified??-- I counted, and could only find 2 who (if you'll excuse the expression) had the balls to show up and compete against the multitude of unflappable geldings. Competing in the hunters is hard with stallions. Those few with the temperament and style (not to mention training and financial commitment) to reach the top of this game deserve better, IMO, than to be subjected to nitpicking and nasty inuendo.
    Last edited by fish; Aug. 10, 2007 at 07:56 PM.



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    812

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    Cute horse, Fish!

    Sounds like Cunningham has a lot of nice traits that he passes on! I personally don't like that first jumping picture of Cunningham at all http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham2.html but in some of the other photos he did look better http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham3.html.



  10. #30
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    Aug. 20, 2002
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    1,313

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    Quote Originally Posted by SueL View Post
    I "met" Cunningham at Devon. He was done showing, about ready to load up in the van and had a lot of "pinto" markings. LOL. He was, IMO, an absolute gentleman, puppy dog temperament and stood up a most impressive horse. Even with the yellow stains.

    I agree with you about the bloodlines. Cassini I on a Contender mare? Fantastic!

    MHO, I think the hunters are a bit too easy for him, but I'll not begrudge his owner her choice of disciplines for her stallion.

    His type is extraordinary IMO - very modern, upstanding. Not pretty, pretty as many of the modern dressage lines are, but handsome nonetheless.

    He's a nice horse.

    Sue

    Sue, you have such a way with words. He seems to me like he wants to jump the moon... either way he's a very talented boy.



  11. #31
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    New Minas, Nova Scotia
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    I can certainly tell you all that to judge any horse from one single photo and his position of knees says very little of the things that matter most and I speak from having made a living of photographing horses. I have seen more than one very successful Grand Prix Jumper jump like a "flying moose", and I don't think winnings were less because of it. There are quite probably a few very good examples of top hunters who fit that bill as well. Brains override beauty any day in my books. I can think of one in particular who had the special quality and was little more than an average jumper, but he still sold for 1 million dollars. Not bad for a horse that some might consider average.

    Bottom line is, let's not assassinate a nice horse over one iffy pic. Temperament and heart wrapped up in an impressive package works for me. Perhaps far too much emphasis is placed on the "trophy" look anyway.

    I was at a horse show... I was seeing lots of very nice horses...every now and then something jumps out at you...I saw a stunning horse at a distance, being ridden bareback by a young girl meandering about while horses were coming and going in all directions, and something told me, that has to be a stallion just by the way he carried himself, but nothing about behavior indicated what one might expect from a stallion, he was a bit vain perhaps, or some might call that presence. He had a teddy bear attitude, something that is hard to see in a picture, which appealed to me personally.

    As I approached him, I was taken by a tall impressive extremely well mannered horse in a moment of relaxation after the show. I liked him. That is not to say he is "the best there ever was, or the best there will ever be" and certainly I see no need for anyone to feel their opinion of him should be changed by my views. However, I do think he is very worthy of note and am thankful for the information put forward by others who too felt him noteworthy.

    Thank you.

    Let's not let this thread get "marish". Please.
    Last edited by Hocus Focus; Aug. 10, 2007 at 09:30 PM.



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    [QUOTE=Hocus Focus;2618366]I will add just a couple of small things. First of all, I can certainly tell you all that to judge any horse from one single photo and his position of knees says very little and I speak from having made a living of photographing horses. I have seen more than one very successful Grand Prix Jumper jump like a "flying moose", and I don't think his winnings were less because of it. There are quite probably a few very good examples of top hunters who fit that bill as well. Brains override beauty any day in my books. Both is best of course.

    QUOTE]

    I agree with you that you simply cannot judge a horse by one picture however, I would also tend to think that for Cunningham's stallion page nothing but his best would be featured. I personally do not have much of an opinion of him at all b/c I don't know enough about him but I will say that there is a ton of talent out there in Hunter Land and plenty of note worthy stallions that possess 'the jump' and that amateur friendly attitude that so many are looking for. Solely based on the 3 pictures I saw of him on his webpage, I do not have any 'wow' feelings like I do about their other stallion.

    Anna



  13. #33
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    Mar. 10, 2006
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    New Minas, Nova Scotia
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    Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....



  14. #34
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    Nov. 25, 2006
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    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocus Focus View Post
    Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....



  15. #35
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Hurdle Mills, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocus Focus View Post
    Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....
    Or a web designer making poor choices from a stack of photos....

    If you're really interested in evaluating the horse's jump, I recommend his DVD. If you still don't like him, I guess we've got a problem with all that judging that's put him at or near the top of 3 divisions this year.

    Oh, well.
    Last edited by fish; Aug. 10, 2007 at 10:24 PM.



  16. #36
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Hurdle Mills, NC
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    [QUOTE=RheinlandPfalzSaar;2618435]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hocus Focus View Post
    QUOTE]

    I do not have any 'wow' feelings like I do about their other stallion.

    Anna
    What "other stallion"? I believe Mary Slouka, Cunningham's owner, only owns the one stallion, Cunningham, at present, having sold Czechmate, her Carthago stallion, to a couple in Tenn. last year.



  17. #37
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    Nov. 25, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    [QUOTE=fish;2618539]
    Quote Originally Posted by RheinlandPfalzSaar View Post

    What "other stallion"? I believe Mary Slouka, Cunningham's owner, only owns the one stallion, Cunningham, at present, having sold Czechmate, her Carthago stallion, to a couple in Tenn. last year.
    Westporte, http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm have no idea if Mary Slouka owns this one or not but they are both on the same website - I should have been clearer.

    I am sorry if I offended you. I truly think that your horse is darling. All I am trying to say is that I was not 'wowed' by the pictures on Cunningham's webpage, I even said in my post that I know nothing about him other than just what I've seen in the pics. I do still stand by what I said about normally the best pictures go up on the website and I would certainly hope that their is an owner or trainer involved in picking out which pictures are going to represent your horse to the breeding public. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying their horrible pictures by ANY means, I am sure that he is a lovely stallion choice to breed to with the right mare.

    Anna



  18. #38
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    Jun. 27, 2003
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    Westporte & Cunningham are NOT owned by the same people. Country Lane (Westporte) hosts that page for Mary as they bred a mare to him.

    I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Westporte, have bred to him for next year & will likely continue to do so. He's a fabulous producer (& approved too).

    I do believe there is a reason that Cunningham has not been presented for approval in this country other than the owner having no interest in doing so, but who knows what it is. You can say what you want Fish, but going to an inspection likely wouldn't have any negative effect on him. Heck, for some registries, he may not even have to be presented. He may just be approved based on his testing scores, performance record & approval in Germany.
    Last edited by spacely; Aug. 11, 2007 at 03:09 AM.



  19. #39
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    Jun. 15, 2007
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    Spacely I would love to hear the speculation.

    I can't imagine that the owners of Westporte would breed to a stallion that had something so wrong with him that no registry would take him.

    Mary is not one for marketing. The only website she has for Cunningham is a link on Westporte's site with old pictures. The link is to show who their mare was bred too and they nicely added contact information. If Mary isn't interested in creating her own website or investing in a well made DVD/Video why would you not believe she didn't care about what registries her stalion was accepted by? She has chosen to invest her time and money into having a top hunter. Obviously that is her priority and her choice. It does not mean there is something wrong with her stallion.



  20. #40
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    I never said there was anything wrong with him. Yes, I have heard a few things, which I won't repeat, but I've heard stuff about a lot of other stallions too. Is it true? Who knows, but I won't repeat it.
    Last edited by spacely; Aug. 11, 2007 at 03:12 AM.



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