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  1. #1
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    Default Wheel-types & breed shows

    I've looked through some of the threads, but I don't see the answer I need.

    Could someone please tell me what the consequences would be of prohibiting wire wheels in pleasure classes at a breed show? The breeds involved are Class A Arab/HA/AA, Class A Morgan, Class C Saddlebred & unrated Morab.

    The show currently allows all wheel types, but we were told that "points could be earned" if the classes were restricted to wooden wheels.

    I'm looking for both pros & cons on both sides of the issue so that I can make an informed decision ASAP (the prize list needs to go out in a matter of days).

    Thanks much!
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
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  2. #2
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    I don't think that many of the people that show in the breed shows have the wooden or other type wheels. Most have a jerald type cart and that has the pneumatic type tires on them. Sulkies, jog carts and fine harness or houghton type all have the pneumatic wire wheels usually. You would eleminate many of the people that would be interested in driving, I would think.

    Of course my experience with it is about 15 years old, but I don't think that it has changed that much.
    "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Adam Savage--Mythbusters
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  3. #3
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    Do you mean points could not be earned if you changed the rules to restrict the class to wooden wheels only? That would be true, if you changed the class rules to something different than what is stated in the USEF rule book you would no longer be holding a USEF class, and for the Arab/Half-Arab people in particular that would be very important because if it is not a USEF specs class they can't earn points from it to go to regioanls/nationals. Most breed show exhibitors use wire spoke wheels, so if you made an additional requirement of wooden wheels only not only would it no longer be a USEF class you would probably get very few entries. Basically for breed shows go by the USEF rule book, which allows wire spoke wheels.



  4. #4
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    Rather than changing the specs for the traditional breed-ring pleasure driving classes (which as I said would no longer make them USEF classes and the exhibitors would not be able to count points from them for USEF purposes), why not add a carriage driving division? Both the Arabian/Half-Arabian and Morgan diviisons have specs on the book for carriage driving divisions for those breeds.



  5. #5
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    Here's my thought: offer "country pleasure driving" for the breeds, with wire wheels permitted, AND "carriage pleasure driving" open to ALL breeds, with only wood wheels permitted.

    Would that solve the problem?

    I'm not sure which organizations' points you are talking about, but ASBs, Morgans, and I thiiiiiiiiinnnnnk Arabs (not sure) all have country pleasure driving; and USEF recently enacted a points system for Open (to all breeds) Carriage Pleasure Driving divisions.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  6. #6
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    Thanks for the quick responses!

    I am not sure exactly what was said about the point classes. It was to another person, who then asked me. We used to have a driving enthusiast on the show committee, but she left us 2 years ago.

    From what I recall, about half our participants had wooden wheels, the other were wire. We don't attract a lot of drivers overall, although we hope to change that.

    ETA: We are unable to add more classes to the schedule at this time. Let me see if I can dig up the classes we are offering. Maybe that will help clarify--or maybe not!
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
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  7. #7
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    I think they are referring to the fact that wire wheels would not be acceptable in the USEF Pleasure Driving Classes which derive from American Driving Society rules. I think they will remain separate in terms of year end awards so adding solid wheels probably won't matter either way

    Only catch to that is the USEF Pleasure Driving Committee who seems to have put together a committee to revamp the ADS rules (fyi, they actually included some ADS people on the committee along with breed and other representation - nice of them wasn't it)

    I'm fully expecting to see some serious rule changes to accomodate breed drivers being pushed down to ADS from USEF (grrrrrr) from one who thinks affiliates should control rules in their baliwick, not USEF. IOW leave the breed groups alone if they are happy with what they have. Leave the ADS rules alone as well (as printed in USEF rule book). If USEF wants to make changes they should work with the group involved, not make their own committee to tell the affiliates what they should do.



  8. #8
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    The pleasure driving classes available to offer under each breeds rules are:

    Arabs & Half-Arabs
    Pleasure Driving- in which you may use either a two or four wheeled vhicle. Most these days use a two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels, but the traditional four wheeled vehicle was a fine harness buggy, which only has wire wheels
    Country Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

    Morgan
    Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
    Classic Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

    Saddlebred
    Show Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
    Country Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels
    Park Pleasure Driving- two wheeled vehicle, a Jerald or Houghton pleasure cart which can be used with wire or wooden wheels

    A pair of wooden wheels for these 2 wheeled pleasure carts cost $1000. Would be nice if people had them as they are larger and sit the driver at a more appropriate height, but they are not mandated under USEF rules for these classes and a show should not add additional rules becaue they feel like it.



  9. #9
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    Geeze, DNJ, what's your beef????

    USEF has made it clear for quite some time now that, now that they are officially the NGB, they want the breed/discipline affiliates to oversee the rules.

    I've said before and will say again - if ADS wants to ONLY be a combined driving organization and IHP affiliate, then it should go ahead and do just that. ADS doesn't meet the needs of pleasure drivers anyway.

    The only reason USEF stepped in and offered the Carriage Pleasure Driving division and HOTY is b/c ADS was not doing it, and there were lots of us, including various breed organizations, and obviously myself (who drives an "alternative breed" with no breed organization and thus is not eligible to compete in carriage driving at breed shows), who favored it.

    I've also stated before that pretty dang obviously the ADS is falling flat on its asp when it comes to governing pleasure shows in the Southeast Region. The calendar has dwindled to the point where if you don't live within reasonable driving distance of Florida or Southern Pines, there's nothing left. The ADS should IMO have stepped in *years* ago to start controlling the issue of conflicting dates. Instead, they hung us pleasure drivers out to dry and let carriage pleasure driving DIE down here. So I voted with my feet! I can't be bothered with an organization that doesn't meet my needs, sorry.

    Personally I am very grateful to USEF for trying to plug the gap and provide us pleasure drivers with a genuinely viable alternative, such as carriage pleasure divisions at the breed shows. Now, if only more show managers would offer *open* divisions, I could even pull my horse out of retirement (again)....

    USEF is, to my mind, simply trying to HELP us grow the pleasure end of the sport, which will otherwise die out completely.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  10. #10
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    As I said, not needed. People are happy as they are for now. If there is a good reason to change fine... if its about points... well I don't consider that a good reason.

    The various breeds have developed classes to show their horses in a style they like which is exciting to watch. Same with "carriage driving" aka what we call "pleasure driving" in ADS speak. Same with draft hitch showing. Different things, all fun and all worth preserving as individual things.

    People can and do cross over, you just need to remember to follow the rules for that type of competition up to and including the equipment.



  11. #11
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    Due to the low number of entries we've had in the past, the show's driving classes have been trimmed to these 5:

    ASB Show Pleasure Driving
    ASB Country Pleasure Driving
    Open Pleasure Driving
    Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
    Open Pleasure Driving Championship

    Does anyone see a reason to exclude wire wheels based on these? I'm leaning towards the "no" because, as you've pointed out, that limits many drivers from competing.

    I haven't yet heard back from the person who was asked about the restriction.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
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  12. #12
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    Must be nice to live in an ADS region where pleasure drivers are "happy"... and actually have SHOWS to go to...

    There has been a *crying* need for change for the last 5 years, which the ADS has not addressed.

    If the ADS membership cannot come up with the numbers for a full-on ADS carriage pleasure show, then CLEARLY there has to be some option to offer us *somewhere* we can compete. Carriage pleasure divisions at breed shows works for me... It's just that more breed shows need to offer the division.

    So, kudos and thanks once again to USEF for Chapter CP in the rule book, and to the ADS members on the committee who contributed to making it happen.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyinBey+ View Post
    ASB Show Pleasure Driving
    ASB Country Pleasure Driving
    Open Pleasure Driving
    Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
    Open Pleasure Driving Championship
    Which organizations is this show rated by?

    According to USEF rules, you could NOT bar wire wheels from ANY of these divisions.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyinBey+ View Post
    Due to the low number of entries we've had in the past, the show's driving classes have been trimmed to these 5:

    ASB Show Pleasure Driving
    ASB Country Pleasure Driving
    Open Pleasure Driving
    Morgan Pleasure Driving Open
    Open Pleasure Driving Championship

    Does anyone see a reason to exclude wire wheels based on these? I'm leaning towards the "no" because, as you've pointed out, that limits many drivers from competing.

    I haven't yet heard back from the person who was asked about the restriction.
    No, I see no reason to excluyde wire wheels from these classes. They are breed show classes, not carriage pleasure classes.



  15. #15
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    You could, however, change the "open" division to this, thus providing the wooden-wheel peeps with a place to play.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  16. #16
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    WA -
    The beef is not that I want ADS to control all not USEF, but when USEF calls ADS their driving affiliate and then forms their own committee to review/change the rules outside the affiliate rather than affecting the change within the affiliate, then I think its an issue.

    I agree ADS should be doing more and that the pleasure committee hasn't been active, but don't think cutting them out of the picture is any more helpful to pleasure driving then it is to CDEs which has similar issues. I also know Jeff Morse - current head of Pleasure Committee is working hard to try to rebuild his committee.

    I LIKE the breed shows. I LIKE "carriage driving". I just would like USEF to work with their affiliates instead of against them - both in breed and affiliate.

    RE shows in the SE... neither ADS nor USEF actually runs the shows. That is a function of show organizations and clubs or individuals. If local individuals, show committees and clubs aren't running things, neither organization can make that happen.

    That said, they CAN support shows better and avoiding date conflicts would be a big help. I do think though that USEF won't get our issues as for most of the other disciplines, two shows, one in SC and one in GA on adjacent weekends wouldn't be as much of a conflict as it is for us.

    RE your comments about Country pleasure welcoming open drivers and allowing both wire and wooden wheels. That is happening up here at breed shows and USEF shows already and has been for years. Hopefully that will spread more.

    Sorry about the grouchiness around year end awards... its just many of the folks who started "carriage driving" vs "breed showing/driving" when I did came to driving to avoid that whole scene so I guess I've been indoctrinated into the philosophy that the lack of Year end awards was part of the reason our sport was staying a bit less cut throat. In recent years we have a whole new bunch of drivers who are bringing their breed and other type of show experience with them and now want cash prizes and year end awards. At the same time its gotten a bit less friendly out there. Could be just changing times, could be the prizes. I don't know, but I hope if USEF does morph all and ADS falls by the wayside in pleasure that we can hold on and rebuild the friendliness I remember.

    Of course, that pre-supposes memory is true and not how I'd like it to have been.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    You could, however, change the "open" division to this, thus providing the wooden-wheel peeps with a place to play.
    At these sorts of shows the Open Pleasure Driving is used as a catch-all for the breeds that don't have a specific class to go in (at this show the Arabs, Half-Arabs and Morabs) and the Open Pleasure Driving Champiosnhip would be the Championship for all of the classes listed as they don't have a Championship for each breed.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Which organizations is this show rated by?

    According to USEF rules, you could NOT bar wire wheels from ANY of these divisions.
    It's USEF. Thanks much, WA. I'm pulling out my little bit of hair over this show. It's one hell of a PITA to have to learn rules for 4 associations and however-many disciplines

    I do drive my pony, but after reading some very educational posts recently, I realize just how lucky I've been. I had no idea I was as foolish as I was (am) at times. I'm looking forward to the day I can improve my driving abilities. Until then, I'm just a lowly grasshopper
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    At these sorts of shows the Open Pleasure Driving is used as a catch-all for the breeds that don't have a specific class to go in (at this show the Arabs, Half-Arabs and Morabs) and the Open Pleasure Driving Champiosnhip would be the Championship for all of the classes listed as they don't have a Championship for each breed.
    Can they get points for that??

    Under USEF rules, if you want to offer a multi-breed class for wooden-wheeled peeps to play in, pretty much your *only* option is to add a Carriage Pleasure Driving class, specifying wood wheels only.

    I do know the Morgan rules provide for a *Morgan* Carriage Pleasure division, but that doesn't help you much, since ASBs and (AFAIK) Arabs don't... yet...

    But if you did that, what you would then do about a championship class I dunno really... Renae, any inspirations?
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Can they get points for that??

    Under USEF rules, if you want to offer a multi-breed class for wooden-wheeled peeps to play in, pretty much your *only* option is to add a Carriage Pleasure Driving class, specifying wood wheels only.

    I do know the Morgan rules provide for a *Morgan* Carriage Pleasure division, but that doesn't help you much, since ASBs and (AFAIK) Arabs don't... yet...

    But if you did that, what you would then do about a championship class I dunno really... Renae, any inspirations?
    Actually Arabs/Half-Arabs do have a carriage pleasure division and National Championhips for that division. But having worked on multi-breed shows of this sort in the past just telling you why these open pleasure driving classes are put in, to catch the random few exhibitors that they don't offer a class for an gauge interest level for future classes. If 6 people showed up with meadowbrooks or gigs and went in that open class the show might think about adding carriage pleausre driving in the future. If 6 people show up with Half-Arab Country Pleasure Driving horses the show might think of adding that in the future.



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