Taking the edge off...

What worked for my TB mare was constant attention/work. As long as I did something with her 6 days a week, be it flat and/or jump school, conditioning, trail ride or her favorite (after jumping). . . Beauty parlor day she was grand. But miss a few days in a row and she was full of p*** and vigor. Keep in mind she was on 8-10 hour turn-out at this time.
Some just need to be occupied, they have too much energy for their skin to contain and are always thinking.

Also, now that he is up to weight and in good health work with your vet and/ or BO, trainer to review his feed requirements. He may not need as much now as he did a few months ago.

Good luck

SEPowell, there's a difference between high quality feed and high octane feed. Always feed high quality of course, but not every horse needs high energy grain, such as ones with a high level of protein, for example.
To the OP--I would also consider changing his grain. My very fussy, super high octane OTTB does great with a high-fiber, high fat grain and a big helping of beet pulp. It keeps his weight on without turning him into a raging psycho. I'm with everyone else, your guy needs more turnout, but if he can't have it, you might try the grain switch.

To me, this sounds like a classic TB and training issue, as YB and DW discuss. The horse does not sound out of the ordinary to me, nor do his antics.

I like to keep a huge variety of activities for my guys. Trails in the mountains, jump lessons at lots of different places/barns, dressage in the pasture as well as the ring, turn-out, and just sucking it up and realizing that TBs mature later and that I have to suck it up and out last them, e.g. fooler's wet saddle pads comment.

Use your horse trailer and open public space. Stop trying to CONTROL and just let it happen. Focus on what you explicitly want in a ride (I want shoulder fore, I don't care if the head is flipping) and let the rest go.

I have never had another horse I longed before getting on, ever. In 20 years and a lot of horses. But from ages 5-6 my current TB needed 5 minutes on the rope to get the stupids out before I climbed on. A summer of this every ride and he settled down -- now I can get right on and have an enjoyable ride. I'd usually the last to say "longe" but here, where your horse isn't getting enough turnout to smooth out the sillies, it is probably worth a try if you want a solution that isn't "get on and canter it out" (my other technique).

The turnout could be part of the issue, but I would look at how he spent his days on the track or at his prior home. If he's always been in SoCal and always had minimal turnout then maybe I wouldn't lead with that being the major culprit.

My TB was a bit similar when he came to me. He was a different horse every ride, though to a lesser degree (in that he has a great work ethic and always "went to work" eventually). But he was opinionated and liked to toss his head up....a lot. He was also a bugger in the winter months.....he'd get all excited over nothing and get spazzy to ride. Touch him with the whip and you were looking at a freak-out moment (which is *why* I rode him with the whip). It also meant more head tossing, squealing, bucking, and acting like a jerk than usual. We eventually put him in a standing martingale (the running just pissed him off) and I lunged him every single day before our ride in the colder months. I never let him play on the lunge, it was really just to let his back warm up before I climbed aboard. He was out 24/7 FWIW.

It took a few years of that schedule before he finally mellowed into the horse he is today. I never thought about ulcers until later in life (last year during his 4th or 5th year with me). In hindsight, I think he was always a mildly ulcer-y horse. I started doing omeprazole and that was a game changer. Unfortunately we think the omeprazole led to a couple of very bad gas colics this year (when I had him on the maintenance dose for several months straight), so now I'm trying to manage him in a non-drug manner. But I wouldn't hesitate to give it the trial run to see if it made a difference.

But I still think that the majority of my guy's issue was that he was a BIG, strong, smart, and willful horse with a bit of a wild hair. All qualities that have made him a great upper level jumper, but qualities that also made him a handful much of the time. And there are still times in the winter when he's had a few days off that I pull him out and he's right back to that nut job of a horse who bolts when I put leg on him, squeals every time he does an upward transition (including those of his own choosing) and just goes a little crazy. He's always back to his normal self on day two. This is not an issue in the least in the warmer months when he can have as much time off as he wants and he always comes back into work like the trained horse he is.

So I guess I might try a grain switch, but neither the grain/feed nor turnout schedule has ever made a difference with my TB (not saying it won't make a big difference with yours since they're all obviously individuals). The biggest factor for my guy was aging and a consistent work schedule (as in 7 days a week in the colder months).

With a smart, energetic sort I would use the lunge or long lines to engage their mind. In other words lots of transitions, circle in and out. Burn some energy while making them think and work. Otherwise you could end up with a well conditioned bouncing ball at the end of the line;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PNWjumper

So I guess I might try a grain switch, but neither the grain/feed nor turnout schedule has ever made a difference with my TB (not saying it won't make a big difference with yours since they're all obviously individuals).

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Agree! In my experience the horse I have is the horse I have regardless of the level of octane. I feed high octane because I like to condition mine to be able to gallop about 4 miles in case I hunt, plus I love that conditioning work and they seem to love it too.

forgive mistakes I'm on my phone.

there is now way to give him more turnout, let alone 24/7. he is in the biggest corral on the property and stands in the same corner. he is in a routine, but I refuse to let him dictate when he gets ridden, especially since there are 12 horses in the schedule. he was born in socal, so this fact that he gets two days and more is a lot. I know most of you fwnt fathom that....neither could I when I first moves here. I still hate it. he is 8, but only been under saddle since May.

tc Sr is the highest fat and fiber beep based grain available and love it. like i said he has been on it even before the hot streak.

we also have limited trail space. as in none. our trails are basically the back roads, and with a full work load of horses getting him out doesn't happen. I know I need to change that, but time is tight right now for many many reasons. I do have.poles set up and we do different exercises in the ring. I suspect he actually needs more work. we were jumping once q week, until everything seemed to go to hell at once and the schedule got all out of whack. I don't want to jump him when he is being q jackass bc I don't want him to associate the two.

keep the ideas coming!

Well, frankly, it doesn't sound like you are willing or able to make many or any changes. All of the ones suggested here are what others of us have found to work. Really, if he's that green, you may just have to ride it out, no pun intended.

And, I just have to say, I don't find the fact that he's in a busy barn an good excuse to not give him a routine (if anything, keeping routine in a busy training barn is the only way things stay on track) or not to get him out of the ring. I have run busy training barns, with lots of horses to ride, lessons to teach, vets and farriers to hold for, clients to talk to, feed orders to make, errands to run, books to keep....you get the picture. And, every horse got out of the ring on a regular basis. Even the wild and crazy ones (sometimes those ones got ponied, but they GOT OUT). Not only is it good for the brains, but it is good and basic FITNESS. Even if it is just "back roads." I've been on plenty of farms where "hacking" was a loop or two around the property...but they still got out of the ring.

So, consider this tough love. You've been given LOTS of great advice, all of which should help in some way or another. Take it or leave it. But you can't change his behavior if you can't or won't make changes to his life.

Your guy sounds a lot like my daughter's young horse. I didn't set out to buy a young horse, but couldn't find an older schoolmaster who wasn't seriously overpriced, lame or both! So, we came home with a 5 year old who is now finally just turned 7 and hopefully through his complete idiot stage.

He was swell until he started feeling the results of good feed, regular work, the lovely body worker making him feel good, etc. Suddenly, we had a very fit, overly happy youngster on our hands. The regular dumping of his rider wasn't an option we were happy with so we had to re-adjust a few things.

I took him off ALL the grain. He still got a massive amount of food (we are in Australia and feed chaff), in his bucket, gave him all the meadow hay he could eat. He still got all his supplements, and his Speedy Beet but NO grain. I, quite frankly, didn't care too much if he was a little tired. Better him to be tired than my daughter on the ground. So, he didn't make the time xc, but better to be slow and safe than galloping back without his rider.

She lunged him every single time before she rode. Some days he needed it and some days not, but he still got lunged. We taught him a bolt stop and practiced it on the ground, at the walk, trot and canter.

My daughter learned to recognize when the buck/bolt was coming and was able to stop it before it happened. Each time she was able to stop the behaviour before it happened has been a tick in the win column.

I also stuck him on an herbal concoction from the herbalist. It has valerium, chammomile, lemon verbena etc. (Didn't use it when competing as I think it swabs) Upped the vitamin Bs and magnesium.

I think everything has it's season. We have dropped the herbal stuff as time went on and he learned he can feel good but be in control. He is still a big, athletic horse. Quite talented and really sweet, but a bit of a twit. I think he will always be a goose, but we are learning to manage him.

I am not expert, and all of this was new territory for us, but we are gettting there! Good luck!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runNjump86

forgive mistakes I'm on my phone.

there is now way to give him more turnout, let alone 24/7. he is in the biggest corral on the property and stands in the same corner. he is in a routine, but I refuse to let him dictate when he gets ridden, especially since there are 12 horses in the schedule. he was born in socal, so this fact that he gets two days and more is a lot. I know most of you fwnt fathom that....neither could I when I first moves here. I still hate it. he is 8, but only been under saddle since May.

tc Sr is the highest fat and fiber beep based grain available and love it. like i said he has been on it even before the hot streak.

we also have limited trail space. as in none. our trails are basically the back roads, and with a full work load of horses getting him out doesn't happen. I know I need to change that, but time is tight right now for many many reasons. I do have.poles set up and we do different exercises in the ring. I suspect he actually needs more work. we were jumping once q week, until everything seemed to go to hell at once and the schedule got all out of whack. I don't want to jump him when he is being q jackass bc I don't want him to associate the two.

keep the ideas coming!

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He is 8. Most TBs don't mature until 10 or so. It is their nature. STOP TRAINING and just go for a ride. Instead of arena work, go do road work (I do 1-2 days a week instead of working in the ring or after an arena ride).

TBs, in general, need a lot of activity and things to do. It doesn't have to be high intensity. But they burn out with continuous ring work, AND if you are eventing, WHY are you even working in the ring, other than for dressage and 1 stadium jump a week?

I am completely opposite of what you do. When they ARE being a jackass I JUMP them BIG! Let them play!!! Jumping is just a more organized buck and I want them to have FUN. At the same time, the jumps give them something to FOCUS on without me TELLING them what to do. I just sit square and point. I have yet to ever have a horse associate the two.

I do think it's a question of maturity, and of simply waiting it out and riding it out without getting emotional about it. Much easier said than done. Set attainable goals with the horse you have on a particular day, and always end on a good note.

With mine (bought at the track when she was 4, she is now 14 and we had some "difficult" moments to say the least), for variety, I'd do ground work, longe work - NO running around or "letting the bucks out" on the longe, it is work time-, hacking out, and lots of variety in ring work. For instance, I'd school a Prix Caprilli test, or I'd use some obstacles like the western riders have, etc. etc.

As my instructor would say, I had to "keep her little brains busy". Otherwise she'd find ways to "amuse herself".

The biggest difference for us was when I boarded her at an indoor for the winter months and we both went to "dressage boot camp" with an instructor who is used to work with Ottbs. It made a world of difference in her attitude, but it also coincided with her being ready to finally "grow up" mentally.

I think you are looking to hard....and 2 scheduled days of turn out??? Did I read that correctly ...it's cold he feels good you are asking him to learn to carry himself in a new way that is physically and mentally taxing...instead of 2 rides in a row of the hard stuff mix it up asking for a little then go onto something where he has to use himself properly with out even realizing it. I like to do hacks mixed in w/ some on the fly dressage demands then a loose relaxed rein and then work up a hill using the muscles needed to carry in a frame....he maybe just bored with the whole ring thing so give him something else to do and work the other stuff in....

"there is no way to give him more turnout, let alone 24/7. he is in the biggest corral on the property and stands in the same corner. . .he was born in socal, so this fact that he gets two days and more is a lot. I know most of you can't fathom that....neither could I when I first moves here."

I can fathom it--I think we're all aware that there are parts of the country in which people choose to ride and keep horses that are not conducive to turnout. The reality is, though, that often time spent outside--even if not running like crazy--can benefit a horse's mind. My horse spent his early years (until six) on a track. No turnout. He was still a borderline loon without it.

"He is in a routine, but I refuse to let him dictate when he gets ridden, especially since there are 12 horses in the schedule. I still hate it. he is 8, but only been under saddle since May."

If he's only been under saddle since May, I think you're dealing with green and uneducated as well as hot (maybe). With regard to "[refusing] to let him dictate when he gets ridden," why? If riding him in the morning gets you the best horse, and him the best learning experience, why wouldn't you ride a horse when he's at his best? He's not a manipulative little kid who's being snotty to get what he wants, he's an animal. If you find that you have a better horse at a certain time of day, and the ultimate goal is a more educated, willing, happier horse, why not go with that?

"tc Sr is the highest fat and fiber beet based grain available and love it. like i said he has been on it even before the hot streak."

Right, but the weather and his schedule are different now, aren't they? Is this iteration of Senior it a sweet feed? If so, does he need this feed, on this schedule, at this time of year? My old guy (again, OTTB) ate steamed crimped oats twice daily plus his hay. I know not all are the same, and he wasn't an impossible keeper.

"we also have limited trail space. as in none. our trails are basically the back roads, and with a full work load of horses getting him out doesn't happen. I know I need to change that, but time is tight right now for many many reasons."

Well...you'll change it when you can, right? If you're riding others' horses, you need to make it your business to ride your own first, or he'll always get short shrift. It takes the same 45 minutes to ride in a ring as it takes to ride down the road.

"I do have poles set up and we do different exercises in the ring. I suspect he actually needs more work. we were jumping once q week, until everything seemed to go to hell at once and the schedule got all out of whack. I don't want to jump him when he is being q jackass bc I don't want him to associate the two."

I wouldn't fear the jumping/jackass association. I do get "I don't want to jump him because I'm fearful he might get out of hand and injure himself, me, or someone else." Is there any real reason that he needs consistent jump schools through the winter? Why not lots of legging up, dressage, basic fitness, etc.? Don't let his schedule get "out of whack," or be more understanding of the fact that he may take a while to put back together if you do.

"keep the ideas coming!"

You've gotten great ones, but you've shot nearly all of them down. There's no magic bullet here. It's making changes, even when they're inconvenient, until you figure out what works.

I vote road work at a walk lots and lots of boring walking if he will let you and then big canter in the arena until blowing a few times a week added to regular workout.

I also vote if you lunge do it bitted. Turn out is for playing he can be in the side reins and learn to get RIGHT to work.

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Originally Posted by RAyers

I am completely opposite of what you do. When they ARE being a jackass I JUMP them BIG! Let them play!!! Jumping is just a more organized buck and I want them to have FUN. At the same time, the jumps give them something to FOCUS on without me TELLING them what to do. I just sit square and point. I have yet to ever have a horse associate the two.

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I love this :)

My TB was being a royal jackass tonight when I pulled him out at dusk in the rain (how DARE I?!) after 3 days off. Instead of trotting for 15 minutes and cantering for 10 to warm up, we squealed for 15 minutes and crow-hopped for 10. I had a bunch of 1.40m jumps set up from our last jumping session and I said screw it and pointed him at one of the jumps. He was surprised to say the least, but I've never had him settle down quicker! After 3 or 4 big jumps we went back to flatwork and he was settled and focused and loose and just happy in general.

So I give a big thumbs up to RAyer's advice :D

I'm not trying to shoot everyone's ideas down. I am not wanting to pull him off his grain, or switch it because I can see the results of it, and it is the highest quality grain in our area that I can afford.

As for riding him before I ride other horses...not easy when you're a working student who gets paid for riding the other horses, not your own. My trainer is very accommodating and understanding, but we still have a lot of other horses to work with. Every horse is scheduled in a certain order to make it easier for us and the barn worker, so sometimes he will get ridden first, sometimes last. We have three turnouts, and 16 horses on the property that need to be turned out. Two of the 16 HAVE to get out every day for medical reasons. Six horses get turned out per day, for 4-5 hours each. Is it absolutely ideal? No, but its the best we can do with what we have, which is why if I end up riding him in the evening or later in the afternoon I am able to give him an extra half-hour, or hour, of TO.

The only access we have to fields is to haul out, and since I have to rely on Trainer to take us places, I'm a bit ham-stringed. I don't ask him every single ride to perform difficult things. One day will be a dressage school, the next is trot sets, day off, then another dressage school, then (used to be) jump school. As of recent it has turned into a dealer's choice. Believe me, I'm frustrated that I don't have access to conditioning hills. However, it is the price I pay for convenience. When I boarded him somewhere else, he was getting ridden twice, maybe three times a week, and turnout was for fifteen minutes at a time.

The jumping/jackass connection is harder to explain. Trainer has a 5yr old that has recently turned into the Spawn of Satan. She jumped him a couple of times while he was at the height of his nincompoopery, and now just cantering over poles sets him off. Also, I haven't been jumping my guy very long, so we're not doing 'big' jumps yet.

I ground drive him once every two weeks, and whenever I lunge him it IS bitted. He was introduced to a lip chain the other night, actually, because even WITH a bit in his mouth he was dragging me across the arena and charging around like a loon.

We don't have lights, or an indoor, and I have ridden at dusk several times (hence the feeding time fit), so until days get longer we are limited. Issues with DH has limited barn time on weekends as well.

Let me reiterate...I *agree* that getting out, as in OUT, would help a lot. However, at this point in time, it is just not available. Am I willing to change that eventually? Absolutely. I mean come on...everyone has had at least one time in their life where it felt like everything was crashing down on their head??

But after looking into signs of ulcers, I'm tempted to do a round of pop rocks. Intermittent loose stools? Check. Erratic day-to-day behavior? Check. Poor coat? Kinda-sorta...could be shinier. Plus we just Power Packed him, which (thanks to the all-knowing JB) I learned can leave little mini-ulcers if he had a significant worm load.

I don't mean to sound standoffish...I truly don't. I know he's still young and green and needs hours/miles, but I was thinking that until my days free up a bit and I AM able to get him out, that perhaps the Vita-Calm might make life a bit easier for both of us. Does that make sense?

3 paddocks, 16 horses, 24 hours in a day = 4.5 hours per day per horse, every day if you are creative, and double that if you put them out in pairs.

you could also ride one on the roads and pony another to leg up 2 at once.

^Agree. Even if you don't want to put them out at night, in a 12 hour period they could all get out a couple of hours each day. 2 hours of turnout is better than none.

Also, no one is saying pulling hi OFF his grain (well, I'm not). But you COULD reduce it now that his weight is better.

And, honestly, I wouldn't be giving a calming supplement for a horse like this. I would be living through the silliness, because a lot of it probably has to do with winter, greenness, and physical strength. And I would work to make whatever changes I could in the constraints of my day, facilities, etc.

100% pull the grain amount back and up the hay..alot....and agree somehow your turn out schedule seem skewed.......maybe another WS situation would work more in both of your favors since you are seeking advice here not from your principle trainer..