The freakiest canter (?) I have ever seen

Gross - and those riders look like they haven't done 5 minutes of exercise in their lives. I would encourage people to write to the organization putting on the show and tell them your feelings. I write and tell them this is abuse and then I write the their State Governor and say I won't visit their state until this abuse of horses is stopped.

Very well said, Thoroughbred 1201!

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Originally Posted by Timex

Very well said, Thoroughbred 1201!

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Thank you! The dressage rider in my likes to analyze everything, LOL.

I've always felt that the riders (usually the "trainers") look like trolls or goblins the way they ride. TWHs, flat shod or trail shod, are such lovely horses --- it's horrible to see them shod like this and looking so freakish.

That video made me want to cry. :(

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Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201

Regarding sitting the rack -

I've ridden dressage and hunter/Jumper for 40 years, and now am riding saddlebreds. The seat is the same - shoulder/hip/heel in a line. And the feel is that of a horse really working off his hind end. The saying is no hind, no movement. It's really too bad saddlebreds aren't in vogue, because they really are built to be wonderful dressage horse. It's just a different muscling through the training. If you put the muscle on the topline, you have a lovely dressage horse.

But to show a Park horse, the energy and engagement behind is the same as a dressage horse. But the front is freed up to show the natural action. Muscles are built up in the shoulders and the underside of the neck rather than the topline in order to show the action in front. You want a gaited horse leading with the chest. Frankly, it's exactly like riding a big jumper. I keep looking for the top rail of the jump, LOL.

The rider uses the snaffle to lift the front end. The curb is used to open or close the throatlatch depending on the horse. I have to say that I've never seen such beautiful hands in my life than on saddleseat riders. There are a few exceptions but I have to say that this is an accurate generalization - turly wonderful, soft, kind hands.

The rack is fast and very uphill. The tendency towards the chairseat is that when your horse drops down behind and engages, the saddle doesn't give you any support. Consider how built up in the cantle a dressage saddle is. A gaited saddle is flat, and the rider is expected to be strong enough to hold themself. I found myself grabbing a lot of mane! Now, I'm looking for a saddleseat equitation saddle which has a deeper seat.

The riders legs are kept off the horse, because frankly, you don't need them, they have such a natural engine. Most saddlebreds drive before they are ridden, and honestly, because of this, you don't have the issues of straightness. So forward and straight are a given, then, you work on bending.

Like Hunters & jumpers, gaited horses use dressage principles. But they are 'applied' dressage, because the point of it is different - not wrong. Just a different end result.

We had a Tennessee Walker trainer in the barn. She did the Plantation walkers, and they were flat shod. Those were the nicest horses to ride.

Don't paint all gaited horses or gaited diciplines with a broad brush. They have their bad apple trainers (just like dressage - think rollkur!), and they have just as much misinformation about dressage as dressage people tend to about gaited horses.

Probably way more information than needed, but like the Tennesse Walking Horses - there are bad trainers and good trainers in everything. Try to stop the bad, and learn to understand the good.

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Thank you for an excellent and informative post! This reminded me that once upon a time George Morris won at the Garden in the same year both the Maclay and the saddleseat "Good Hands" championships.

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Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi

Thank you for an excellent and informative post! This reminded me that once upon a time George Morris won at the Garden in the same year both the Maclay and the saddleseat "Good Hands" championships.

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Actually that was William Steinkraus, in 1941.

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Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201

Regarding sitting the rack -

I've ridden dressage and hunter/Jumper for 40 years, and now am riding saddlebreds. The seat is the same - shoulder/hip/heel in a line. And the feel is that of a horse really working off his hind end. The saying is no hind, no movement. It's really too bad saddlebreds aren't in vogue, because they really are built to be wonderful dressage horse. It's just a different muscling through the training. If you put the muscle on the topline, you have a lovely dressage horse.

But to show a Park horse, the energy and engagement behind is the same as a dressage horse. But the front is freed up to show the natural action. Muscles are built up in the shoulders and the underside of the neck rather than the topline in order to show the action in front. You want a gaited horse leading with the chest. Frankly, it's exactly like riding a big jumper. I keep looking for the top rail of the jump, LOL.

The rider uses the snaffle to lift the front end. The curb is used to open or close the throatlatch depending on the horse. I have to say that I've never seen such beautiful hands in my life than on saddleseat riders. There are a few exceptions but I have to say that this is an accurate generalization - turly wonderful, soft, kind hands.

The rack is fast and very uphill. The tendency towards the chairseat is that when your horse drops down behind and engages, the saddle doesn't give you any support. Consider how built up in the cantle a dressage saddle is. A gaited saddle is flat, and the rider is expected to be strong enough to hold themself. I found myself grabbing a lot of mane! Now, I'm looking for a saddleseat equitation saddle which has a deeper seat.

The riders legs are kept off the horse, because frankly, you don't need them, they have such a natural engine. Most saddlebreds drive before they are ridden, and honestly, because of this, you don't have the issues of straightness. So forward and straight are a given, then, you work on bending.

Like Hunters & jumpers, gaited horses use dressage principles. But they are 'applied' dressage, because the point of it is different - not wrong. Just a different end result.

We had a Tennessee Walker trainer in the barn. She did the Plantation walkers, and they were flat shod. Those were the nicest horses to ride.

Don't paint all gaited horses or gaited diciplines with a broad brush. They have their bad apple trainers (just like dressage - think rollkur!), and they have just as much misinformation about dressage as dressage people tend to about gaited horses.

Probably way more information than needed, but like the Tennesse Walking Horses - there are bad trainers and good trainers in everything. Try to stop the bad, and learn to understand the good.

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Great post. The "good hands" comment is right on. Upper level dressage riders could take some pointers from good saddleseat riders. Touch of a finger. Not death grip.

Then again you need to train the horse to respond that easily also.

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Originally Posted by Renae

Actually that was William Steinkraus, in 1941.

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Oops! :o

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Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi

Thank you for an excellent and informative post! This reminded me that once upon a time George Morris won at the Garden in the same year both the Maclay and the saddleseat "Good Hands" championships.

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We've lost a lot, as most people specialize now. We're all tend to be in a 'closed-loop', getting information from only within our discipline, rather than being open to what others have to say. That goes for all disciplines these days. No more multi-discipline shows. They are either dressage shows, or AQHA, or H/J. If we'd had more cross-discipline discussion, I think we might have been able to avoid the terrible state of the TWH on the video. The peer pressure from other disciplines alone in a multi-disciplined show might have helped. When you police yourself from within, it doesn't work very well.

The H/J world right now is under fire because of the drugging and the NY Times article on the pony Humble dying at Devon. As David O'Conner said, Eventing was the same way 4-5 years ago because of all the accidents, and the riding has improved 100 fold.

Let's hope it holds true for the TWH. They are such lovely, sensible horses. They don't deserve this.

Just to add to this thread...

All three of these riders are trainers, and all three of them are HPA violators.

The first one that comes out on the black horse, Jimmy McConnell, is brother of Jackie McConnell, the man in the HSUS undercover video. They were taught how to "train" horses by their father.

The third horse, Folsom Prison Blues, also has a violation on him.

Unfortunately, this madness is still going on. They have no problem soring their horses to win. Those of us at For the Tennessee Walking Horse are trying really hard to end this.

But don't you like this horse in comparison - and he can canter too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E29Pk...F05SHQyEv7aypA

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Originally Posted by Bats79

But don't you like this horse in comparison - and he can canter too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E29Pk...F05SHQyEv7aypA

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I've seen a few clips of Champagne Watchout... Gorgeous horse, and that girl has brass ovaries. :applause:

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Originally Posted by Bats79

But don't you like this horse in comparison - and he can canter too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E29Pk...F05SHQyEv7aypA

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YES!! This is showing the horse to it's NATURAL ability! And I love how the rider matches the horse perfectly, with her golden jacket, black ponytail, and black pants--LOL!

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Originally Posted by cnvh

I've seen a few clips of Champagne Watchout... Gorgeous horse, and that girl has brass ovaries. :applause:

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Now that looks like a fun horse to ride! Lovely canter as well, and the walk looks comfortable and natural. Makes all the other horses look even more unnatural in comparison!

I grew up down in Alabama in the 1960's. TWH's were a BIG deal at the Jr. League Charity Horse Show. Back then, the "grooms" were African American guys, who really were the trainers of these horses. The owners, who mostly were drunk when showing, just got on and showed. The grooms did all of the work. The sad part was that there was always a grooms class at the end of the show. They were guys who knew how to ride. They were not swaying around in the saddle, as if they were going to fall off at any second.

That being said, they were abusive trainers. "A little blood makes a good walkin' horse." This was told to me about a 2 year old TWH that had been brought back in from his workout, after being sored and chains so tight that blood was running down his hooves. :mad:

I was 12 years old and furious that anyone could hurt such a beautiful animal that way. I wrote a letter to the editor of our local newspaper describing a day in the life of a TWH. I received a letter saying that they could not publish my letter, because it was too controversial. At the time, I owned a TWP called Drummer Boy. I rode him in flatshod english pleasure classes.

What is so sad to me is this abuse has been going on for such a long time. I am thankful for those with Walkers who are trying hard to make this change. No horse deserves this kind of treatment! I have ridden in several disciplines in my long life. Almost every one of them has their demons, which should be outlawed. If riders would consider training without pain, it would be a lovely world indeed.

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Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201

The rack is fast and very uphill. The tendency towards the chairseat is that when your horse drops down behind and engages, the saddle doesn't give you any support. Consider how built up in the cantle a dressage saddle is. A gaited saddle is flat, and the rider is expected to be strong enough to hold themself. I found myself grabbing a lot of mane! Now, I'm looking for a saddleseat equitation saddle which has a deeper seat.

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Or as John Richard Young said, "An elegant saddle seat rider is elegant DESPITE his/her saddle, not because of it." A friend of mine showed saddle seat (English Pleasure) Arabians using a older Passier dressage saddle. She was constantly commented on how well she rode. Duh.

I don't think there are ANY "good" Big Lick trainers. Good TWH trainers..sure. Big Lick trainers - Fail.

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Originally Posted by Sandy M

Or as John Richard Young said, "An elegant saddle seat rider is elegant DESPITE his/her saddle, not because of it." A friend of mine showed saddle seat (English Pleasure) Arabians using a older Passier dressage saddle. She was constantly commented on how well she rode. Duh.

I don't think there are ANY "good" Big Lick trainers. Good TWH trainers..sure. Big Lick trainers - Fail.

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Exactly Sandy! Big lick needs to be gone forever and there is no such thing as riding well in a class where the horse is distorted to this degree for some attempt at bigger and that walker 'picture'.

If the horse cannot come first (and in big lick they currently cannot) then do away with it altogether.

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Originally Posted by sunridge1

Great post. The "good hands" comment is right on. Upper level dressage riders could take some pointers from good saddleseat riders. Touch of a finger. Not death grip.

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Do saddleseat riders need to do piaffe, one tempi's, and canter pirouettes?

hahahahahaha

If someone could get ONE lateral movement out of this horse Id be in shock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AhBXrMbiiA

Watch the 1.16 segment of the other "gaits". To me it looks so silly but not as bad at TWH I guess.

If you need the shoes to do it I dont think it should be done period.