Californio / Vaquero / Doma Vaquera

I thought that I'd try to split this off into a separate thread. On the Western Dressage threads there's been a lot of talk about the Californio / Vaquero / Doma Vaquera training.

If one were interested in that type of training, at what point would a specific trainer be needed for that discipline?

Is the progression of bitting similar to that of a "bridle horse?"

Does anyone here have experience with that type of training?

I thought it might be interesting to compare/contrast - kind of like the French method thread...

JMHO;
I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.

Not really, they are two related but different ways of training and working cattle with your horses.
If you want to learn one or the other, get thee to whoever is training for that one.
They are at all not interchangeable.

I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids? Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!

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Originally Posted by dragonharte8

JMHO;
I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.

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Maybe the charros you trained with were from CA and followed the CA vaquero tradition, but the mexican charros are also a bit different than the CA vaqueros in important ways.

I do agree that some of that training can be rough and not very technical, unless you find some of today's better educated horsemen.

The old type riders in those three different ways of riding tended to have stiff, at times easily inverted horses, unless they were very, very good, natural horsemen with a good feel for a horse.

Today, with all the information out there, there is no excuse any more not to be aware of the more technical ways we can train, in any discipline.

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Originally Posted by Kachina

As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels?

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Sure there are loads of uneducated riders/trainers out there, but a GOOD german system trainer will NOT enforce contact thru the curb!

There is SO much misinformation about the TRADITIONAL schooling of horses, something I think whose time has passed in most present day work of ALL schools. As little as 30 years ago ALL schools sought self carriage/whisper of aids/progressive schooling. I would say that coma vaquero comes close to the unity of dressage and vaquero riding as it used to be. To blame the winning germans/dutch/swedes for poor methods is really incorrect, blame the JUDGES which have allowed such crude training (and its results of truncated gaits and submission at all costs) for what is happening across the board of all tppes of riding (western/h/dressage/even ss).

CA (I know I rode the top horses then) riding was very progressive from hackamore to snaffle to whisper of aids in a spade, those who use the later with both hands or crudely are plain idiots with no idea how to school a horse/collect/etc. There was no excessive NH type truncation of the neck/etc.

I hope to become part of the new DV/equitational thrust. Perhaps DV riding will be a revival, and french methods will bring people back to lightness. But the question is always whether riders want to pose the horse/win xyz, or whether they want to learn how to progressively train.

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Originally Posted by dragonharte8

JMHO;
I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.

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um...are you serious?
Charros in SD taught you the "Spanish spade"?
really?

there is not a finesse so much as the ability to control YOUR entire body the entire ride.If that is now considered "finesse" today than horsemanship is doomed.
your head and shoulders and hips and calves and heels in the proper places
and the weight you place in your ankle,on your seat bones, on your shoulders in you head and neck...

I am completely annoyed that the notion of "soft hands on the mouth" is all that comes thru these discussions, with the exceptions of about 2 posters plus me who TRY to tell you over and over and over again that the mouth/face is the final focus of these things....

used in the green horse much more with the hackmore to reinforce what you are trying to tell a baby...AND hideous looking, but over exaggerated aids diminished down to some thing better looking as he learns....smart horses learn faster,dull horses make the rider crazy

after a year under saddle the horse "gets" it enough to become reliable.

And after a year of riding and learning the leg and seat the body of the horse replies as a UNIT to what you are asking with the arch of the neck and the lift of his tail and the brightness of his expression....then you can add the four reins and go forward....

Tamara

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Originally Posted by Kachina

I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids?

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no the legs are first and the mouth last

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Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!

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the Moors brought this riding to France via N. Africa...it remained in their traditions when their military was formed in later centuries as the remaining bloodstock ( as a result of conformations) took to it better.

Tamara

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Originally Posted by Kachina

I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids? Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!

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Ideayoda has already answered your questions but I will add for emphasis.

Any dressage horse is supposed to go in self-carriage, and respond primarily to the rider's seat, body and legs. Contact is there but LIGHT.

Double bridle and spurs are for advanced riders who can use them very precisely.

"Western" or "English" or "German" or "African", loose rein or a full contact ...

.... the only way to have good hands is, FIRST, to learn to "sit" the horse properly.

If the rider's "seat" cannot follow the horse's back without bouncing then there is NO WAY the hands can work INDEPENDENTLY from the seat, so they will only jab the horse in the mouth at the 'wrong time' because there is no true 'separation' of the sets of aids (rider's seat, back, legs, hands, even head). If the rider cannot separate the aids with knowledge and skill then they should not be telling the horse what to do.

Yes, the only way to have good hands is:
Don't use them. This used to be basics not too long ago. You rode on the line until you had an independent seat and legs. You earned your reins. And you rode without reins as often as you did without stirrups.
And this was in hunters and jumpers.
If you can't turn or stop or yield your horse without your reins...you aren't really riding yet. ;)
And that's all disciplines. Reins and/or a bit is the fine tuning. Only.
You don't get/put the horse on/into contact. You ride correctly and the horse picks up it's own contact. The horse doesn't accept the contact it's given...that's backwards.
And yes, in all disciplines it's the judging farking it up. But to a degree it's also the riders and trainers for not giving the judges anything correct to judge in the first place. In subjective sports...the judging has too much to do with opinion.

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Originally Posted by ideayoda

I hope to become part of the new DV/equitational thrust. Perhaps DV riding will be a revival, and french methods will bring people back to lightness. But the question is always whether riders want to pose the horse/win xyz, or whether they want to learn how to progressively train.

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I want to learn to train progressively! {jumps up and down waving hands} ideayoda, I want to go to your school. :yes:

I don't know why but I find myself lately very intrigued by DV and the garrocha and lightness and harmony. Maybe it is because when I look at those DV horses I see more of similarity to my horse than I do when looking at a fancy warmbloods. And I want to work some more cows, too! :winkgrin:

Oh, and if one did want to get involved with DV - how would one find a trainer? Is there an association? So far in poking around I found someone on So. Cal who has put out a DVD on garrocha and history, training progression, ground exercises (for the rider to practice), etc.

The U.S. Cavalry traing system was based on a progression, for both horse and rider. And, AND, they took into account that most riders were green recruits. Some had never seen a horse before !!!

I know there is at least one place in CA that still sticks fairly close to the tradition. I ordered some tack from them. And, I can't remember who they were.

Google hand made Bosals and you will eventually find them. They have a ranch and they teach I believe, or they are closely connected to some who do.

there are any number of videos in the German available.There are those over there who are quite taken with the sports and the training

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Originally Posted by Pocket Pony

Oh, and if one did want to get involved with DV - how would one find a trainer? Is there an association? So far in poking around I found someone on So. Cal who has put out a DVD on garrocha and history, training progression, ground exercises (for the rider to practice), etc.

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Why don't you contact this guy?
http://www.johnsaintryan.com/index.html

Looks like he does clinics in this area. He might be able to recommend others.

I very much disagree that to have good hands is not to use them. Of course to use ANY aid the seat has to be in balance and to be INDEPENDENTLY BALANCED (w/o holding onto the mouth for balance). No the hands are not used as tight/held firsts, nor ever backward nor to saw the horse into longitudinal flexion w/o any consideration for lateral flexibity. But the education of the horse to opening/bearing(neck)/indirect reins are just that, part of the education. The hands can (should) be able to be used by turning the thumb to the outside (a kind of lifting w/o lifting)/horizontally/ and vertically. The horse should be able to be asked to meet the hand and change balance and/or mobilize the jaw and/or to go fdo. Those ARE actions of the hand, CONCISE and CALCULATED. Just as there are actions of the leg (preferably the calf with the heel down), or the (minutely) posterior tilting of the pelvis.

I do agree about the 'farking it up'. As a judge I am embarassed about how the judging (across the board of all disciplines) has been lowered to 'encourage' riders rather than PROTECT the horses and make people learn HOW TO TRAIN.

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As a judge I am embarassed about how the judging (across the board of all disciplines) has been lowered to 'encourage' riders rather than PROTECT the horses and make people learn HOW TO TRAIN.

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:rolleyes: