Good ..... I'm happy for you Harrie.
Are you coming to Nuemunster ?
I "get" all the sales pitch from the Holsteiner legion in this thread. But I am a jumping horse breeder, not a brand breeder. The world is not flat and you won't fall off if you leave Holstein. You will be o.k.
Funny it hasn't changed in 20 years and what's even more funny is that the most recent approved stallion Harm Thormalen bred is Cero by Calido / Come On / Calando I / Capitano.......FOUR generations in a row of C ........ouch ! I think my friend Harm was maybe trying to divert you away so he could breed with all the C !
I personally don't think you know as much as you would like us to think you do , and if you think someone is "sales pitching" , you are sadly mistaken. It is what it is.
To my eye, the filly is intensely inbred with the Corrado brothers as grandparent and great grandparent. And there are more duplicates in some of the other Holstein lines in the KWPN horses. Valine is Cottage Son and Raimond is Ramzes. There is more Ladykiller in the back and also more Farn. The only doubles, though, come through males. I find that interesting.
Hard to make comments on this thread when some are closed minded and not open to opinions/thoughts of others. Difficult to have a discussion with different points of view when some have only their own vision that is tolerated.
Cero is a very nice horse, btw, and its pedigree is an outstanding one. My initial point still stands however. The breed is on its way to being a two legged stool--the two legs being the two C lines. Anyone who understands genetics will understand that the other lines are dropping out each successive generation of breeding if the mares don't have diversity in them. You cannot drive or breed by looking solely in the rear view mirror. Breeding is a journey with a point that you came from to a point that you are going to. Would be helpful if you understood this. Then "maybe" we could have a good discussion of the breed's lines and how they have changed over the past couple of decades. But looks like that is not going to happen on this thread.
You made it difficult to have a discussion about genetics, when you essentially wrote off the the #1 studbook in the world. Bayhawk and I gave you numerous examples of stallions, and horses that are far from overly concentrated in C and C and you chose to only defend you comment. The EVIDENCE has been provided to you that shows that the old guard, and many new stallions are in fact not heavily concentrated with C & C. It has been the proper use of these lines that has elevated them to the top. Your statements are in direct contradiction to the facts.
So it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you regarding genetics when you continue to disregard the facts. I have a degree in Biochemistry and Microbiology and Molecular Genetics. I can assure you that I understand these basic points in regards to diversity.
We would all enjoy a nice conversation about the Sire lines, as it would be appropriate for this thread. However, having that discussion with complete disregard for the mares and their own diversity is foolish. I provided an example with one of my mares. My mare has no Capitol, and 3 gens of half bred stallions then a TB stallion. I can breed her to almost any Holsteiner stallion alive(based on paper of course). One of my other mares is C,L,A,S,F . Again, no problems here. The mares we are using today, are a result breeding choices from awhile ago. The problem is more one of a misunderstanding, then factual. I have many more examples, and suggest a step back will reveal the forest.
you make comments like "two legged stool" that are totally false.
If you would have stopped making these errant statements you may have learned about my mares and their underwhelming amount of C blood. You may now understand why offense is taken with your comments. Diverse group of mares below.
Canturo / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro / Colonel
Singulord Joter / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf
Corrado I / Quidam de revel / Contender / Landgraf
Calido / Acorado / Landgraf / Lord / Ramiro
Singulord Joter / Acord II / Corrado I / Ramiro
Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable Skinflint xx
Classe / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf
Mezcalero / Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable skinflint xx
Campesino / Lavaletto / Acord II /Sable Skinflint xx
Canturo / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf
I've bred some of these and bought some of these. These are anything but "two legged stools" and will never be two legged stools.
you don't seem to understand that we don't want to get away from C. It is known as the best jumping blood in the world. The C from cottage son xx and the C from Corde la bryere are magical together. They just need something stuck in between every 3rd or 4th generation.
People have been saying what you have been saying for the last 30 years. It hasn't happened then and it won't happen now.
If 80 percent of the stallions are C lines dont the mare sire line eventually also become C?
Conversely if a percentage of mares need a no c line sire but only have 20 percent of the stallion book to pick from does that also raise its own concerns on limited genetic pool?
How would one know if you have too much C line (or frankly any one line) in a program?--how would it be manifested?
Bayhawk has been talking for years, IIRC, about the outcross blood coming in through F1 mares. If you have a mare who is 50% outcross with few or no duplicates to existing lines, the available sire pool would be far more than 20%, wouldn't it?
The breeders of Holstein have gotten rich and famous with c&c. It becomes a problem when you have too much Cassini / Contender for example. While this can be a very good sporthorse that is worth a fortune......it can also become a little boxy and heavy.
The approach for the future needs to be Cassini / Laval / Contender or Cassini / Heraldik xx / Contender etc. You never need to worry about having too much C......only the Verband needs to worry about this moving forward. Like Harrie non chalantly said......they will open up ever so often when they feel the need.
They have the most condensed jumping gene in the world in their mare herd. They will be super careful not to let it escape.
I love C blood. no one is saying that you and other Holsteiner breeders need to get away from the 2 C lines. I know Holsteiners are an excellent jumper genetics breed and genetics pool. I have never indicated otherwise in this thread or any others.
but if the breed looses those M's, L's, R's, A's etc. that are stuck in between (I am assuming you understand genetic generational loss), it will only further concentrate the genetic pool of the 2 C's--further line breed it. It stands to loose the benefits of the genetics behind Marlon, Ladykiller, Ramzes, Alme', etc.
Diarado will hopefully become a great future sire for the breed. The combination of new SF blood on Corrado might just infuse new vigor into the population. But whether the breeders use him, and whether he can make strong sons or maybe becomes a sire who makes a line of jumper dams will not be known for at least 10 years.
See we do agree--
This is sad when Wendy's post celebrating a great breeding success, spirals into a banter from the unknowledgeable Holsteiner nay sayers.
Wendy accomplished this very great thing with Bayhawks inputs, he gave her the advice that if you would only listen to, maybe you could learn from.
The Holstein breeders have a recipe for breeding, that has taken, how long, to develop, it works.
Why continue to argue the point. I was going to respond to your original post but ,poof you edited before I got a chance to quote.
and you don't know me--so don't refer to me as a unknowledgable Holsteiner nay sayer.
those kinds of remarks are petty and not conducive to discussions.
and Bayhawk and I tend to be in agreement.
I can always learn from another breeder--and maybe some could learn from me as well.
you need to be as open to other's views as you expect others to be open to your views.
yes ,they must gap it with A , R , L etc. and then they can go right back to it.
Diarado is showing up in his daughters. I think he had more on the elite mare show than any other sire. They had top rideability. I haven't been impressed with the sons anywhere in Europe thus far.
"If you have a mare who is 50% outcross with few or no duplicates to existing lines, the available sire pool would be far more than 20%, wouldn't it?"
I guess my awkward point was that outcrossed mare will be presented to a C line stalllion and have a F1 with a C sire line.
But it seems it is known how to mix and match the c lines.
it certainly points out why one must think generationally in order (among other things) not to paint oneself into a genetic corner with your mare line.