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That is what William Steinkraus used to say, except for the "today's training" comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunridge1
He too started with ASBs and never apologized for it, as he too thought different is not necessarily wrong, much less abuse.
He was a fine person and awesome horseman, in anyone's book.
It took my best friend FOUR YEARS to get me to understand saddle seat and the World of the Saddlebred. And when you finally see it done RIGHT, and ride a big steppin' horse, WOW. WOW is all I have to say!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey
Many of the big, well-known programs are basing their programs on a dressage foundation. Rob and Sarah Byers at Premier in KY are doing it right. And my first lesson, ever, at Biggins in KY was also about bringing my dressage background into play.
Yes I know I'm talking ASBs vs. TWHs and it's kind of apples to oranges but like you keep reiterating, Bluey, different is not necessarily wrong.
And it's just wonderful that Rob won the World's Grand Champion Five Gaited stake again this year on Bravo Blue! Yay Rob!Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare
And it is BRED into the horses, not gimicked onto them. I have owned my horse since he was a green broke 2 yr old who only knew how to go and whoa. He has been barefoot, or wearing plates in front every day since. I have ridden him hunter frame in a plain snaffle with no action devices 99% of the past 7 years. Given the proper inspiration (like noisey farm machinary or a particularly glorious day) he will still set me back in my seat, throw his neck back in my lap like a park horse and pop his knees in an awesome gaited style trot. Afterwards he will snort and flag himself and primp walk like he is on cloud nine. None of that has been trained into him. The only way to survive is to raise your hands, pinch your knees and ride like Louisville, and that's what it feels like. He can thrill me every bit as much as my good five gaited show horse could and he does it completely because he loves to do it and that is how he was created.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBayHanoMare
I agree smartalex. All of mine will do it under the horse eating monster circumstances. And it is glorious to ride. However to train them to keep it up throughout a class at every show is a whole nuther ball game.
That makes sense and I would not opposed to it being used as a training device rather than an action device. The same way that you don't use polo wraps for a dressage show you shouldn't need the chain for a horse to perform a correct gait. Yes, I am aware that those tools have different purposes but my point if something can be used without altering the horse's natural movement then you shouldn't require to use it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartAlex
Honestly, I've found it is MUCH harder to train them to NOT do it throughout a whole class at the horse show. In fact, I flat out ruined one horse trying to make him a western pleasure horse. We got to the show. Entered the ring. He had the natural reaction most Saddlebreds do, which is to light up and park trot. I tried to talk him down to a jog. He learned to rear right then and there and was never the same again. I think it blew his mind that there was some other kind of show ring performance other than Park Trot.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunridge1
Almost any Saddlebred, regardless of the discipline they have been taught, will revert to their nature in the presence of an audience. Generally speaking, you will have at least three times more horse at a show than you will at home. My sister's horse hated to work at home. The best you could do was jog him and keep him fit at home and when he hit that in gait, he was ALL show horse.
Which is exactly why chains are not allowed in a Saddlebred show ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niennor
I hate being "tickled" and I think a lot of horses hate it, too.
They aren't going to object, though, so it's not like they can stop anyone doing it.
BL is a spectacle, in the sense that it's artificial and showy and unnatural, and some people love a spectacle for entertainment. It's exciting for some people to see just how bizarre you can make a horse look under saddle. I just don't happen to be one of the people that enjoys that kind of thing.
As to the rider with the bare feet and using the outside rein to try to keep the horse on the rail, well ... without using a lower leg or training the horse to respond to your weight in a well schooled manner, that's about as far as you are going to get control-wise. It's kind of like the difference between a muscle car and a sports car ... the muscle car is showy and will get there fast, but don't try to take a sharp corner in it. I don't get the feeling that BL or show walker people care too much about the correct bend or subtle signals.
Why would they care what other disciplines demand of their horses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwill
Seems that what they want is what they are getting at the shows and, well, if they can do it without abuse, why not and why would you want them to do what you or I think is "better"?
There is not that much we do with horses today that require much technical riding in the sense of "correct bend" or certain "subtle signals" you seem to refer to and still do fine riding their horses.
I agree with hundredacres' assessment of this "sport." Also, was the girl in the last video clip on the gray horse barefoot?
Exactly. I've known people who trained Saddle Seat horses on a straightaway and those horses learned to corner at the show. Abusive? No. Naturally, the horses who already knew how to get around a corner had the advantage. And yes, there are a whole lot of trainers out there getting by with horses who won't move off your leg and don't know how to bend, and yes, some of them look awful enough to give us a bad name. But abbreviated training is not isolated to any one discipline. You will have those kind of people now and then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey
I don't know about reverting to nature but they will revert to nurture. My trail riding horse is completely different in an ARENA period. He was trained as a show horse at 2 years old (he's 14 now) and it's the arena itself that sets him off. Indoor is the worst (he gets really big and snorty) which is where most of his training took place with smoke bombs, and fire extinguishers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartAlex
It's a complete conditioned response. The only other time he gets that big is when something scares him or if I deliberately air him up, which is rare.
Police horses are trained with smoke bombs and fire extinguishers, too; not to mention gunfire.
It is all in which responses from the horse you reward as correct.
You can train a horse to be alert and animated by rewarding the startle response part of the sequence of reactions to 'something new' or you can train the ho hum nothing bothers me response that you get by rewarding the horse when it eventually ignores the noise/visual and continues on quietly.
Neither is abusive training done correctly.
Either can be abusive with a fool for a trainer.
With my horses all it takes is an audience. Even horses who have been born here on the farm and never aired up... they get into a new place, the excitement flips their switch. Heck, some of them all they need is for a car to pull over on the side of the road, and they're off!Quote:
Originally Posted by sunridge1
Our twh like I said before has champion line for bls. Take him in an arena he flips a lid. Different horse, he is terrified and nervous, jumpy and almost crazy. He will park out in the field but you ask in the arena and he will drag you half way around the ring terrified trying to get away. Needless to say he never goes in my ring and doesn't need to he is a trail horse and loves it. But the way he behaves in a ring makes me wonder where he came from. I believe he was abused and tried to be made a bl horse but he had different ideas about that and that's why he ended up with a horse trader that we got him from. Also someone else mentioned keeping their Calf off these horses. Oh yes, it has taken 7 years to get where my husband can trail ride him and relax his calf on. He would just take of faster and faster head straight up and very nervous whenever a leg touched him.
None of my non SS trained horses act like that away from home. They were all trained by a professional trainer even my SS trained that was retrained by the same trainer. Even when they were green and I took them away from home for the first time. However NONE are kept in stall either.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartAlex
The recipe is this, stalled 24/7 with short workouts and zero turnout, conditioned response triggers, muscle memory work on neck and legs, farrier work.
OTOH I'm quite certain because of the fire bomb etc. training. I have a horse that will walk into, through, over, after ANYTHING that scares him.
What I really abhor more than anything is what they do to the babies to show. I did it, and hired to have it done. Wedges, weights, ginger etc. DO NOT EVER belong on 4 month old horses ever. I can't believe I ever thought it was okay. In fact I guess I never did, the foals I sacrificed to that lot I never touched because if I had any relationship with them I could not have let it happen.
I've been to KY and saw some of the best horses out there.Trying to explain it to a 16 year left me without words. Deliberately scaring horses in their stalls to make them look cool is so NOT cool. Chaining the nose to the neck and with a flying W during a workout so not cool. (that horse won a WC title that year). It's crap training. My opinion.
ASB's are reactive, upright and animated horses yes. They are trained to be MORE reactive, more animated, and more upright than they would be if it weren't for all the appliances. In fact the length of time it would take to train them without appliances is exactly why it isn't done.
But none of this justifies stacks being nailed to a horse's foot. No matter how you turn it - it is cruel.
ANd I think the perfect limit is to disallow bands on any shown horse. Right along with chains. They do not belong in the competition ring for obvious reasons.
ANd the bad example of why would be the TWH and their extremes which led to some very well federal deserved laws.
Show associations should be and for the most part are pro limits.
Again - other than TWH, SSH & Racking - whose stacks prove it can go to far.
None of it justifies crappy farrier work. I have NEVER seen a nice balanced hoof that needed bands to hold the shoe package.
The way I understood a query on a farrier site was, they do what's in the "best interest of the horses life". Meaning, if the horse has no job then it doesn't have a good chance at a good life. Tricky dem der words.
Out of curiosity tonight, I fastened a lightweight chain around my arab's pastern.. It was loose.....I rode her up and down the driveway and she did NOTHING. She could have cared less.
There's more to the chains than they are telling us. It;s a load of crap that it causes them to reach, perform or give them rhythm. That same mare will prance when she see's new horses, knees high, head and tail flying, feet light as air - so she knows how to show off. But the plain, lightweight, loose chains didn't do a damned thing.