Why can't he grow heel?! Getting despondent! PICS ADDED 9/22/07 1st Post

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Originally Posted by Magnum

The right packing (every horse is different) is your friend if you have to use wedges on aTEMPORARY BAIS (THEY SHOULD NEVER BE PERMANENT! ... If they are, you had better find out what your farrier is doing wrong ... they are STOP GAP and NO MORE!

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Not true at all. In certain instances, wedges are a permanent fact of life. But its not just wedges, but appropriate frog support, and as necessary, bar, sole and commissure support.

Older horses(horses older than 6 yrs.old) with negative plane coffin bones, especially behind, need wedging and support for the internal structures. Time after time it has been demonstrated that when this is done, the horse returns to full soundness and the HP/CBA is restored and maintained. And, when this support is removed, the internal spatial orientation of p3 returns to a negative plane and various and sundry pain and unsoundness issues resurface.

Now, I realize that the plural of anecdote is not, data, but there you have it none the less :)

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Originally Posted by hoofrx1

....the horse returns to full soundness and the HP/CBA is restored and maintained.

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What's HP/CBA?

HP(?) & Coffin Bone Alignment?

HP - Hoof/Pastern, usually seen at HPA - hoof pastern alignment :)

Yes to your guess of CBA :) HPA and CBA together paint the picture of the alignment of the 3 pastern bones and the hoof capsule.

Terrific news...

Shane CAN move to the barn in Mullica Hill :) we're not sure when, or how much... but it can happen. Then Shane can be shod by the good farrier that does glue ons! I still want to learn about potentially switching to barefoot at the conclusion of the winter... but this is very good and unexpected news for now!

Are you looking to go with glue-ons? Why? The quality of Shane's feet look pretty darn good, it's just the shape that sucks ;) I don't have personal experience with glue-ons, but from what I have gathered, they can be reallyreally tricky to do, and the more moisture the foot is subject to, the harder it is to keep them on.

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Originally Posted by JB

Are you looking to go with glue-ons? Why? The quality of Shane's feet look pretty darn good, it's just the shape that sucks ;) I don't have personal experience with glue-ons, but from what I have gathered, they can be reallyreally tricky to do, and the more moisture the foot is subject to, the harder it is to keep them on.

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The good farrier in Mullica Hill does both glue ons and nail on shoes. He actually, also does trims w/o shoes. I don't know that he would use glue ones for Shane, I suspect, if he starts bringing Shane's feet in line, that he'll do at least 2-3 cycles with glue ones before switching to steel. That's what he's doing with my other horse that he started shoeing after an abscess-- just to make sure for at least a few cycles that the shoes are staying on and the feet going the way he wants them to. He's a big fan of glue ones, though he also does regular shoes.

I don't know how good the quality of Shane feet are, although perhaps its hard to tell in the picture. He has either thin soles or hoof walls, not sure-- but when he was last checked up at New Bolton, they recommended glue ons for Shane. I did that few a few cycles and then switched to steel.

I don't know what the new farrier will recommend. But I do know that when I look at the websites about the proper shape of feet, and I look at my 2 horses that he does-- the shape of the hoof is correct. And now, having looked at these websites and the helpful pictures with lines drawn on them, I can see what is wrong with the shape of Shane's foot.

I'd still LOVE to ultimately take him barefoot, but probably not going right into winter. Once he moves to Mullcia Hill (probably not until November) I figure I'll tell the new farrier to do what he thinks is best to get the shape correct and in the spring we'll see about possibly going barefoot.

Actually Fall and Winter are a great time to go barefoot as the ground is often softer. In the old days it was standard practice to pull shoes in the winter and give the feet a chance to rest from shoes. I don't know how many people do that nowadays but I remember doing that with my ponies as a girl in Pennsylvania. My farrier then always recommended it and it also helped prevent snowballing in the feet.

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Originally Posted by vxf111

I am getting very worried about my poor retired TB who cannot, despite all efforts, seem to grow any heel.

I decided to retire him last December. At the time, he was being shod by a very good farrier who had him in normal steel shoes. Farrier noted that the heel was not growing well, and was trying to encourage that by not trimming the heel too much and setting the shoe back a bit so Shane didn't touch his heels to the ground.

Moved the horse to the retirement farm. New farrier looks at old farrier's work and thinks it's good work, but doesn't think it was necessarily encouraging heel growth. So, since December-- she's been shoeing Shane behind in steel with a wedge. Still no heel growth. She's at her wit's end and really doesn't know what else to do.

Vet came out to do shots and also inspected Shane's feet. Vet is displeased with the lack of heel. Suggested either: (1) floating the heel and continuing with the wedge (what she meant by that, I'm not sure); or (2) removing the shoes behind and seeing if he can grow out on his own. I am a little scared to do that. If he wears his heels down any more walking on hard ground-- he'll be FOOTLESS. As it stands, if he puts his foot down a little too hard while the shoe is off, and chips it during shoeing-- it bleeds. It is scary-- he has THAT little foot.

I don't know what to do!

Farrier is willing to try something different, just doesn't know what to try.

Vet suggested starting Shane on Glanzen, which I will, but that's a more long term solution than a short term one. I had him on 2 other hoof supplements which he ate for 3-4 days and then refused to eat.

I could potentially switch Shane to my other barn, where my riding horses are. We have an incredible farrier that does glue on shoes and other corrective/unusual type shoeings. But that would be a big expense for a horse that's currently retired. I'd prefer to come up with something to at least TRY before doing that.

So, foot gurus. How in the WORLD do you grow heel on a TB with crappy feet who seems bound and determined NOT to grow heel?

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Okay, I went out today and took pictures of Shane's feet. I would VERY much appreciate suggestions as to what might be better to try, what might be not-ideal about the current shoeing etc. I'd prefer this not to turn into a crucify-the-farrier thread and to stay productive. I'd like to be able to print out the suggestions and give them to the farrier. So just saying "that's bad, change farriers" is not all that helpful. I want to learn what is right/wrong and what the shoes are supposed to look like. And current farrier is WILLING to try something different but needs ideas. Which is not to say I am unwilling to move Shane and/or switching farrier. I am lobbying had to get a pasture turnout situation for him where I keep my other horses... but in the meantime. What do you think of these feet, if you see things that could change-- what and how. THANK YOU!!!

The photos can be accessed here...

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...20Sept%202007/

LH= left hind, RF= right front etc. In addition to closeups of each foot (3-4 per foot) I also included a full body shot and a father away shot of both sets of legs.

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Hi there, I would really love to hear how Shane's doing right now, if you still have him. I came across this while doing some random googling about "floating heels" (a pete ramey principle) for my own barefoot ex-racehorse. But this story kinda got to me, and poor Shane with those awfully long toes and underrun heels. How did it go in the end? Did you get a fix to the problem? And did you end up finding a better farrier?
:)
Ellen

Since when does Ramey float the heels?

Strasser-yes

Pete? Ummmm

Holy old thread bump.....

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Originally Posted by ecrklaveness

Hi there, I would really love to hear how Shane's doing right now, if you still have him. I came across this while doing some random googling about "floating heels" (a pete ramey principle) for my own barefoot ex-racehorse. But this story kinda got to me, and poor Shane with those awfully long toes and underrun heels. How did it go in the end? Did you get a fix to the problem? And did you end up finding a better farrier?
:)
Ellen

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Well, it's not much of an update to the feet story actually. The thread was from 2007. I did bring him to the other barn where he was worked on by the excellent, excellent farrier. Within 2-3 cycles (glue on fronts, nail behind) the feet were in much better shape. After that, the horse had a variety of soundness issues wholly unrelated to the feet (back problems from his broken wither and a soft tissue stifle injury caused by being chased by another horse during "bring in" time). I subsequently retired him for good.

He moved to a friend's farmette. I pulled all 4 shoes. I actually thought he'd have a MUCH harder transition than he did. He has been retired and barefoot for several years now. His feet have a great shape although I would say they still tend towards the shelly texture. He's "pasture sound" at least in terms of the feet. He's been retired for several years and has basically been fine aside from one minor soft tissue tweak a few months ago. His feet are not a problem. Would he be sound to ride barefoot (assuming his body was sound?)-- not sure. But he's plenty fine to be a retired pasture sound horse.

Thanks for asking. Wow, this is an old thread!

Wow, OMG he was fat in that photo from 2007. I haven't seen that in ages. What a hoot!

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Originally Posted by vxf111

Well, it's not much of an update to the feet story actually. The thread was from 2007. I did bring him to the other barn where he was worked on by the excellent, excellent farrier. Within 2-3 cycles (glue on fronts, nail behind) the feet were in much better shape. After that, the horse had a variety of soundness issues wholly unrelated to the feet (back problems from his broken wither and a soft tissue stifle injury caused by being chased by another horse during "bring in" time). I subsequently retired him for good.

He moved to a friend's farmette. I pulled all 4 shoes. I actually thought he'd have a MUCH harder transition than he did. He has been retired and barefoot for several years now. His feet have a great shape although I would say they still tend towards the shelly texture. He's "pasture sound" at least in terms of the feet. He's been retired for several years and has basically been fine aside from one minor soft tissue tweak a few months ago. His feet are not a problem. Would he be sound to ride barefoot (assuming his body was sound?)-- not sure. But he's plenty fine to be a retired pasture sound horse.

Thanks for asking. Wow, this is an old thread!

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I'm glad to hear that! How nice to know he "made it", so to speak. And lovely that he's now OK barefoot. I'm really glad to hear you made the decision of moving him to the more expensive barn. Sometimes, I suppose, it's easier finding an old thread like this because the story already has a conclusion, it just has to be dug up!

On the question someone else replied with - I'm pretty sure Pete Ramey was the one who coined the term "floating heels". At least in Norwegian, Strasser calls it something else entirely (along the lines of "opening cut"). Many different barefoot gurus practice the same techniques, just under different names. I may be entirely wrong of course, but I'm pretty sure Ramey uses the technique (not sure of his exact wording, though).

That said, I think I'll leave the floating heels to someone else:-) Perhaps if my trimmer thinks he needs it (he's got rather hooked-in heels and I'm wondering if it's inhibiting frog growth), but that's about as far as my research has gone.

Happy new year, everybody!

I can assure you Pete does not. He did (don't know if he still does) use a 'heel bevel' but a definite 'no' to opening cuts and heel floating.

And if you really want to watch a foot go splat, starting cutting away those 'heel hooks';)

Haha. As I said, think I'll leave the decisions to the professionals:) My trimmer (one of the very best in my region) has given me one of her old rasps, which is MILES better than my brand-new cheap one ever was, and has shown me how to maintain his hooves inbetween visits, and I e-mail her photographs for comments. But beyond some very basic maintenance and balancing work, I back off. What is it we have podiatry education for if not for that? :-)
Sorry about the late reply, by the way. Can't seem to get notifications for these.