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View Full Version : Everyone who owns horses should watch this!



San Miranda
May. 27, 2007, 09:14 AM
This brought tears to my eyes, it shows an incredible bond between two souls.

I know from experience that the more time you spend with your horse, the more freedom you give him, the more you are humbled by these incredibly special creatures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669JgdXu-u0&mode=related&search=

mbm
May. 27, 2007, 06:21 PM
very cool :)

thanks for sharing.

debra
May. 27, 2007, 06:48 PM
Hmmm, I think I'm missing something.

Kelly G
May. 27, 2007, 07:17 PM
It really was lovely footage! I loved the obvious trust, and watching a horse encouraged to behave like a horse. Thanks for posting it!
Kelly.:)

js
May. 28, 2007, 05:14 PM
Beautiful; however, I hope riders, especially young riders don't try this at home. While its wonderful to have that kind of bond, doing what was done in this video takes lots of training - not just bonding. Too many people that get out and "play" with their horses in the pasture can find themselves in a sticky situation and could get hurt.

Ash N Brenna
May. 28, 2007, 05:56 PM
I don't know. I saw a lot of treats involved and he looked kind of aggressive rearing up and plunging. I didn't see that much of a bond.

kwpnWB
May. 28, 2007, 10:19 PM
its obvious all about the training.. when she turns he does a move, when she spins he spins. its good training i give it that.

CatchMeIfUCan
May. 29, 2007, 12:27 AM
I don't get it either...not really all that impressed.

ms raven
May. 29, 2007, 03:58 AM
I prefer this performance. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU

I respect the training involved but think the Andalusian comes across as fairly agressive also.

WindsongEq
May. 30, 2007, 12:55 AM
I thought the Andalusion also a bit agressive but lovely photography and brave girl.
Here is a perfectly trained beastie, no agression whatsover...or is it just trick videography??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ljkQJdoYws
Too Funny!!

StorybrookeFarms
May. 30, 2007, 01:48 AM
Hasn't anyone watched any of the Parelli stuff? It's quite attainable, and not "dangerous" as some may think... (Oh boy... I suddenly feel a trainwreck coming *rolls eyes*)

Dressage Art
May. 30, 2007, 02:07 AM
Here is a perfectly trained beastie, no agression whatsover...or is it just trick videography??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ljkQJdoYws
Too Funny!!

:D Well now, do you really think that somebody did dressage on a bull?

Surviving the Dramas
May. 30, 2007, 04:32 AM
Personally I don't like it. I have handled several stallions, one of which was a nightmare in every sense of the word. At several points in the video he is herding her, making her move when HE wants her to. I'd hate to think what this horse is like to handle behind the scenes. I could be totally wrong of course, but certainly not for me

Kelly G
May. 30, 2007, 05:24 AM
I'm inclined to disagree with the notion that the horse [stallion?] in the video is herding/dominating the girl with him. I think he's playing with her, which my stallion [as well as my previous stallion, who I had for many years] does with me, too, and though it's something that could be seriously dangerous without a TOTAL understanding of the horse concerned, with a naturally dominant horse, or if the play was ever allowed to get out of hand, personally I'd agree with the OP that these two look to be pretty "connected".
Kelly.:)

GrayMe
May. 30, 2007, 09:55 AM
ms raven...WOW...Spectacular...Thanks for sharing. The balance between horse and rider is perfect. That's the ultimate bond between two skilled atheletes!

slc2
May. 30, 2007, 02:07 PM
the horse is wearing a bridle, the trainer is carrying a whip - it's a circus act, and very easy manouvers at that. the horse is not being aggressive or 'dangerous', and would not be 'dangerous offstage'...he's not being 'allowed to be a horse', he's just doing tricks on command.

just going around here and there, and i'm sure he was started off in the right direction with a healthy smack on the tushie.

ok...fine...she's wearing some filmy thing and the lights are dramatic and it's not the usual...no, it does nothing for me. it's a circus act, and not a particularly skilled one at that. i'm sure some people like it, but 'freedom'? 'two souls bonding'? spare me.

bt
May. 30, 2007, 02:12 PM
if you believe that is all about "bonding souls" I got some nice moist real estate and a bridge for sale, today only, I'll give ya a special "just cuz u r u" discount. It's about special effects and FOOD.

Pommederue
May. 30, 2007, 02:17 PM
Gag...sorry, that's not for me:sleepy:

Eclectic Horseman
May. 30, 2007, 02:19 PM
Yes, it's circus. I can appreciate circus. Looks like a Cavalia type act. Horse could stand to lose some weight! Must be all those food rewards. :winkgrin:

swgarasu
May. 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
Not really my cup of tea, and I don't see why everyone who owns a horse should watch it. My horse and I have a great bond too. She nickers when she sees me and I dispense sugar, but at least I don't put it on youtube.

dalpal
May. 30, 2007, 06:03 PM
Hmmmm, not a big fan of a 1200 pound animal running after me with ears pinned...but that's just me. :lol:

Kelly G
May. 30, 2007, 11:22 PM
You know, when this footage was first posted by the OP, I looked at it and I didn't think it was particularly extraordinary [and I still don't], but I did think it was lovely footage, just the same. I like that the girl freely turns her back to the horse repeatedly, and I like the fact that the horse is getting to "play" like horses play, with the girl being safe in the knowledge that the horse knows his boundaries. I don't get why, just because we may not be as affected by the footage as the OP or some others might be, we instead need to disect the daylights out of it and read so much negative stuff into it. Nice footage, artistic, good music, lighting, something a bit different, job done, it's our cup of tea or it isn't, but cripes there's nothing negative about it, happy horse, happy, safe girl, what's there to be negative about?

Those people reading the footage as viscious horse, circus act, etc, haven't you ever "horse played" with your horses? Horses play by charging around, bucking, rearing, laying the ears back, horses play by mimicking aggression, they "play fight". Look at them playing in the paddock, that's the No 1 way they know how to play. They play that way with other horses, and if they've got a good bond with a human, some of them are happy to play that way with their humans, too. And, when I go out and "horse play" with Cortes in his paddock or on the longe, he does all of that same stuff, and he isn't being aggressive or dominant, he's just playing, nothing more. It actually tells me I've done my job right that he's got enough trust in me to "play" with me. I carry a whip when he's playing, too, not because he'd be aggressive in any way, but because I use it to signal when play time's over and work time's starting, etc. So, no, I don't see the footage as aggression, and I don't see it as purely "circus tricks" [because this horse isn't performing unnatural "circus" acts, but rather he's doing on stage with a human what he'd typically do in the paddock with other horses]. It's just a lovely example of a horse getting to "horse play" with a human [yes, on cues, it'd be a bit dangerous to do it on stage like that if it wasn't on cues!], and it's fun for the horse, and also, by my guess, for the human.

Kelly.:)

Mao
May. 30, 2007, 11:24 PM
I prefer this performance. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU



Me too!

That was COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kelly G
May. 31, 2007, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by ms raven
I prefer this performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhuip8kyBTU


Couldn't agree more, I watched it the other day on one of the other threads and thought it was incredible!!!

Kelly.:)

San Miranda
May. 31, 2007, 06:54 AM
BASED totaly on the videos......


IF I died tomorrow and had to come back as either the bay horse or the grey horse........... I would pick the grey horse. I like my freedom.

IF I died tomorrow and had to give my Andalusian stallion to either the girl or the man......I would pick the girl.

It has been interesting to read all the comments. We are all different and see the world from different angles, thats what makes life so interesting.

I just enjoyed seeing a horse perform without any physical restraints, yes she had carrots and a stick but the communication between them was not through reins or rope.. He was not physically restricted.

Which horse looks like he is happy and enjoying himself?

Red Barn
May. 31, 2007, 07:48 AM
I must be an unusually perverse and cynical person.

That first thing just looks like, if it went on for another couple minutes, would turn into some really smarmy sort of equine porn. Yuck.

slc2
May. 31, 2007, 08:41 AM
well then you're not the only cynical one. gaggers.

HardHeadedHanna
May. 31, 2007, 09:09 AM
I don't get why, just because we may not be as affected by the footage as the OP or some others might be, we instead need to disect the daylights out of it and read so much negative stuff into it.

Kelly.:)

Well, I just think many people are jealous they can't do it, or that their horse isn't as beautiful. It's basically low self-esteem. This video was so enchanting and magical

Equibrit
May. 31, 2007, 09:14 AM
I smell Disney.
Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech!

slc2
May. 31, 2007, 09:39 AM
Yes, we all may have low esteem or ugly horses or both, or just not be plugged into the essential MAGIC of the universe.

OR....and I am only throwing this out as a possibility....people may have different opinions and have different ways of looking at things...without that necessarily meaning they are damaged goods if they don't agree with you.

I know, I know...what was I thinking. That's impossible. :no:

dalpal
May. 31, 2007, 09:39 AM
Do I go out in the field and play with my horses......short answer..NO.

Sorry, but horses tend to play by biting, rearing, etc.....no, as a human, I do not go out in the field and try to get my horse to chase me, bite me, and rear up....IMO, those are NOT good games to have a horse play with a human.

Let's imagine selling the horse....potential buyer standing at the gate as horse chases the owner around...."Oh, we're just playing." Potential buyer..."Seen enough, thanks."

My horse has another horsey buddy to play with, I don't want her to see me, the human, as her playmate.

Thomas_1
May. 31, 2007, 09:44 AM
I saw them at Windsor a couple of years ago at the Jubilee Event "All the Queen's Horses". It was probably one of the least impressive acts over an event which lasted several days.

MistyBlue
May. 31, 2007, 09:57 AM
The bull doing dressage one is absolutely hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

omuchacha
May. 31, 2007, 10:06 AM
Has no one else played with your horse like that in a pasture, letting them run after you? I did that with my first horse and we had great fun a few times - but I wouldn't call it all that remarkable. Granted, the bowing and stuff is a bit more than that, but it left me "eh."

northern child
May. 31, 2007, 10:31 AM
It was interesting to watch, but.......coercive and unnatural and the girl with him is either braver or stupider (is that a word?) than me. The video link from MSRaven is a treat though. Now that's a well trained animal who willingly responds. Beautiful.

Ash N Brenna
May. 31, 2007, 11:08 AM
One of the first things I ever learned in horsemanship was not to run and let the horse run after you. They are "brave cowards" and if you are running from them, they will feel emboldened to chase. As someone says, equine games include biting and rearing up and kicking and I do not want to be on the recieving end of THAT.

However, when my horse and I "play", we do so by me going out in the paddock and just breathing when my horse breathes and obliging a few scratches when she shows me where she itches. Sometimes she will wiggle her nose into my back for a friendly massage but if I think she might be treating me too much like a horse, I just gently push her away. But I don't let her disrespect me -- ever.

This "play" led to something the other night. I did not need treats. I did not need flimsy, weird costumes. I did not need an orange stick. Or YouTube. I was doing nothing more than just standing with her and observing her and gently rocking her joints with my hands to relax her. Before I knew it, she laid down, just looking at me. I sat down, up against her, and we just enjoyed the night together. I was with her for fourty minutes. I saw what she saw and heard and never spoke a word to her. THAT was magic. Not Disney.

Eclectic Horseman
May. 31, 2007, 11:41 AM
Another Hallmark moment. :lol:

Seriously, some people are just not into sentimentality and, if I judge correctly by all of the "You are special. Pass on to all your friends" emails that I get, I gather that a significant number of the population are sentimental.

Whatever floats your boat.....as long as you float it away from me! :D

MyReality
May. 31, 2007, 11:41 AM
The video demonstrates perfectly what motivates a horse: a stick and carrot. Add to that measure, the horse is also wearing a halter. Some posters already pointed that out.

Take out the sound and effect, take out the playful stallion... instead put a well mannered little pony led properly by a well fitted halter, and lead shank, who quietly comes alone with a relaxed head, suddenly it's not impressive anymore, suddenly there is no bonding, no magic?

Give me a break. It's just show biz.

fuller0819
May. 31, 2007, 12:45 PM
this horse is trained to do these tricks and if you look closely besides the treats she also has a dressage type whip. its an act and the horse is trained. if you think its a bond your crazy:lol::lol: my one horse and me have this bond and we can play and run together in the pasture and he bucks and rears and runs from me and then he turns and chases me he will tag me with his nose and turn around and run the other way for me to chase him. he is also the same horse that when i use to ride him (he is retired because of a knee injury) he did not want me to get off until he was done "playing" with me, we would work (barrels or jumps) and then i would let him do what he wanted in the ring, i would go over to get off and he would throw a crop hop, not to throw me off but just to say HEY I"M NOT DONE :yes: thats a bond not a trained trick for some big time show. Have you ever been to medievil times?? thats what they do and its trainers and horses that have been trained.

Sandra6500
May. 31, 2007, 01:01 PM
Na, you guys are totally not cynical. I see a horse running around a stick and a pretty white horse on a pretty stage. I thought both were pretty damn lame.

San Miranda
May. 31, 2007, 01:10 PM
Try these questions?

See it through the horses eye's, put yourself in the places of the two horses. "Which horse would you rather be?" The one that is alloud to express himself freely or the one that is dominated and constrained by the rider.

I enjoyed the video as it is rare to see a horse been displayed as 'a horse' enjoying been a horse'.

And if we are comparing the two vidoes - another question for you "Which horse do you think is the happiest"?

class
May. 31, 2007, 01:22 PM
here's another video for you to enjoy. it is really not so rare to "see a horse been displayed as 'a horse' enjoying been a horse'" now is it? i think this horse looks even happier than the video you posted, and it is the horse i would most like to be myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52INe69hydE

so, what exactly is your point?

Elegante E
May. 31, 2007, 01:31 PM
It was an ok vid. Fun but not making me melt. I think the slinky outfit bothers me. Like someone said, waited for it to finish and both of them light up and smoke ciggies together.

Wish I could show you all the woman that came to the Andalusian/Lusitano Nationals a few years ago in Ft Worth. Now that knocked my socks off. She had her gelding in the huge arena and they danced. Yeah, she had two whips to direct him but it was his focus on her for half an hour that was truly amazing. He reared at a safe distance, bowed, circled her, lots of cool stuff. It was all so relaxed and easy seeming which was wonderful to see.

Every has diff things that float their boats. Oh and stop dissing Disney!

Ilex
May. 31, 2007, 03:30 PM
I thought the Andalusion also a bit agressive but lovely photography and brave girl.
Here is a perfectly trained beastie, no agression whatsover...or is it just trick videography??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ljkQJdoYws
Too Funny!!


Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is so funny! Thank you for posting the link!

Kelly G
May. 31, 2007, 06:57 PM
Again, though I thought the OP's video was lovely to watch, I obviously wasn't as affected by it as the OP was, which is okay, and it's okay that some people hated it, too. What concerns me more, though, is how threatening some people saw the horse's behaviour as being. Most of us have dogs, and we'll charge around and play with our dogs without giving it a second thought, and would probably laugh if someone ever suggested it was somehow dangerous. But, we're threatened by the same thing going on with a horse. Now, I guess it's at least partly because horses are bigger, but the irony is that horses are flight animals and dogs are fight animals, carnivors. In fact, you can bet your butt that somewhere back in history one of Rover's ancestors even ate one of ours. I adore dogs, but I find it ironic that we react the way we do. Oh, and the horse on the video is clearly loving what he's doing, by the way, regardless of the necessary choreography, just look at him and it's pretty darn easy to see.

As to letting horses play" in general, well, every morning when my son heads down to the stables to feed the horses and I head down to the stables to "work" Cortes, it's not the food Cortes is most excited about [although he LOVES food], he wants to leave his freshly served food and go on the longe. He trots and canters around all excitedly on the circle, and when he's told to change direction this normally VERY lazy stallion pivots around on his hind legs and rears, then bolts off in the opposite direction. Occasionally he throws in an extra turn without being asked, and he thinks he's just so darn funny when he does it, he'll charge off on the circle again, bucking away, nostrils flaring. He'll "mock" threaten to come in to me on the circle without being asked, and when I rush towards him and clap my hands, he'll charge off all full of his oh so funniness again. He puts more effort into those 5-10 minute play sessions than pretty well anything else, and on the days when he plays like that before a work session he's much more enthusiastic about his work, too. If people are here while Cortes is playing [like our normally matcho farrier who was here the other day], they'll stand rivetted, watching him, and comment on how refreshing it is to see a stallion behaving so darn happily during "work" time.

Now, all the cynics, who I can only assume must have been soured by too many episodes of "My Friend Flicka" as youngsters, can screw their noses up all they like, and I've little doubt they will, but this is one extraordinarily contented and easy to deal with, HAPPY stallion we've got here, and our previous stallion was the same way, as have been all our other horses, so maybe, just maybe those of us who've concluded our horses are happier with more than just a handful of grass and a pat on the head just might be on to something???
Kelly.:winkgrin:

Mao
May. 31, 2007, 07:08 PM
here's another video for you to enjoy. it is really not so rare to "see a horse been displayed as 'a horse' enjoying been a horse'" now is it? i think this horse looks even happier than the video you posted, and it is the horse i would most like to be myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52INe69hydE

so, what exactly is your point?

Damn! I just spit wine on my monitor.

This video wins hands-down for 'happiest horse'. I think it revealed TRUE passion. But I still love the pole-dancing one.

dalpal
May. 31, 2007, 07:13 PM
Again I'm gonna stress that I thought the OP's video was lovely to watch, but I obviously wasn't as affected by it as the OP was, which is okay, and it's also okay that some people hated it, each to our own. What concerns me more, though, is how threatening some people saw the horse's behaviour as being. Most of us have dogs, and we'll charge around and play with our dogs without giving it a second thought, and would probably laugh if someone ever suggested it was somehow dangerous. But, we're threatened by the same thing going on with a horse. Now, I guess it's at least partly because horses are bigger, but the irony is that horses are flight animals and dogs are fight animals, carnivors. In fact, you can bet your butt that somewhere back in history one of Rover's ancestors even ate one of ours. I adore dogs, but I find it ironic that we react the way we do about it.

First thing every morning, my son arrives at the stables to feed the horses and I arrive at the stables to "work" Cortes, and when we do it's not the food Cortes is most excited about although he LOVES food], he wants to leave his freshly served food and go out and "work". And, as to the "dangerous" playing he does is? He canters around on the longe, and whenever I say the command to change direction this normally VERY lazy stallion pivots around on his hind legs and rears and shows off, before charging off in the opposite direction. Sometimes he throws in an extra turn without me asking, and he thinks he's just so darn funny when he does it, he charges off on the circle, bucking away and almost smirking, and if I clap my hands at him he'll charge off bucking again, having a blast. He puts more effort into those 5-10 minute play sessions than pretty well anything else, and on the days when he plays like that before a work session he's much more enthusiastic about the work part as well. If people are here while Cortes is playing [like our normally matcho farrier who was here the other day], they'll stand rivetted, watching him, and comment on how refreshing it is to see a stallion behaving so darn happily during "work" time.

Now the cynics, who I can only assume were soured on too many episodes of "My Friend Flicka" as babies, can screw their noses up all they like, but this is one extraordinarily contented and easy to deal with stallion, and my previous stallion was the same way, as have been our other horses, so maybe, just maybe those of us who have this kind of relationship with our horses just might be on to something???
Kelly.:winkgrin:


I'm glad you enjoying playing with your horses..... no, I'm not turning my nose up...I'm simply not interested in teaching my mare or my gelding that it's okay to chase humans. A swift kick to your leg or a bite to your arm can have serious consequences.

Yes, I play with my dogs...but it's games like fetch, etc....I don't want my dog chasing people either. ;)

I have a bond with both my horses....but they also know that they respect humans and their space...they are not allowed to charge into anyone's space.

If you want to let a 1200 pound animal pal around with you, rear, kick, bite..that's fine....but I'm not fine with it...and if that's being a snob, oh well.

Doesn't have anything to do with Flicka, Trigger, or Silver.....My horse weighs 10 times more than I do....don't want her as a playmate.

Kelly G
May. 31, 2007, 08:15 PM
dalpal, not for a second have I been suggesting everybody should go out and start "playing" with their horses, just that for those who believe in having that sort of a relationship with their horses, it has nothing to do with letting horses walk all over them, or be disrespectful in any way. Of course I'm not advocating horses be allowed to invade our space, kick or bite, etc. I spent a couple of decades backing and re-educating horses for a living, for heaven's sake, fixing horses OTHER people had allowed to walk all over them. That's exactly the problem, you see, the minute someone suggests it's possible to have more of a bond with our horses, so many people start hearing violins and seeing hallmark cards!
Kelly.:)

Jasper'sMom
May. 31, 2007, 08:39 PM
Having been kicked by a horse once, hard enough to put me into the hospital, I'm not a big fan of playing with them as if I were another horse. I got kicked by a horse in a big pasture, where the horse clearly was behaving with me just as he would with, say, my gelding, his pasture buddy. If he'd kicked my gelding like that, my gelding would probably have been annoyed and ambled off with a little bit of a bruise and a little more respect for his pasture mate. But I weigh alot less, so I didn't do any ambling off that day...

On the other hand, I totally agree that horses bond with humans. My retired OTTB gelding is a people lover. When I or the BO arrive at the gate, he comes zooming up from his other buddies in a 5 acre pasture, just so that he can get a face rub. To me, this is every bit as cool, and much less scary, then having him greet me as another horse, i.e. running up, rearing in the air, throwing a play kick out there and running away.

I think it's great that people are playing with and bonding with their horses, and to each their own. But, from my own perspective, a horse is a horse, and I am a human, and there have gotta be boundaries.

Oh yeah, and whoever said that clip looked like equine soft porn, you made me laugh, and I totally agree. :rolleyes:

San Miranda
May. 31, 2007, 10:33 PM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....

dalpal
May. 31, 2007, 10:38 PM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....

Honestly...neither. If I were a horse, I wouldn't want to be in a circus act and I wouldn't want to be dragging crap around either...LOL!

I'd rather be one of mine..LOL! Good turnout, work an hour a day, good feed, have horsey buddies and an owner who dotes on them.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 1, 2007, 12:24 AM
You know, when this footage was first posted by the OP, I looked at it and I didn't think it was particularly extraordinary [and I still don't], but I did think it was lovely footage, just the same. I like that the girl freely turns her back to the horse repeatedly, and I like the fact that the horse is getting to "play" like horses play, with the girl being safe in the knowledge that the horse knows his boundaries. I don't get why, just because we may not be as affected by the footage as the OP or some others might be, we instead need to disect the daylights out of it and read so much negative stuff into it. Nice footage, artistic, good music, lighting, something a bit different, job done, it's our cup of tea or it isn't, but cripes there's nothing negative about it, happy horse, happy, safe girl, what's there to be negative about?

Those people reading the footage as viscious horse, circus act, etc, haven't you ever "horse played" with your horses? Horses play by charging around, bucking, rearing, laying the ears back, horses play by mimicking aggression, they "play fight". Look at them playing in the paddock, that's the No 1 way they know how to play. They play that way with other horses, and if they've got a good bond with a human, some of them are happy to play that way with their humans, too. And, when I go out and "horse play" with Cortes in his paddock or on the longe, he does all of that same stuff, and he isn't being aggressive or dominant, he's just playing, nothing more. It actually tells me I've done my job right that he's got enough trust in me to "play" with me. I carry a whip when he's playing, too, not because he'd be aggressive in any way, but because I use it to signal when play time's over and work time's starting, etc. So, no, I don't see the footage as aggression, and I don't see it as purely "circus tricks" [because this horse isn't performing unnatural "circus" acts, but rather he's doing on stage with a human what he'd typically do in the paddock with other horses]. It's just a lovely example of a horse getting to "horse play" with a human [yes, on cues, it'd be a bit dangerous to do it on stage like that if it wasn't on cues!], and it's fun for the horse, and also, by my guess, for the human.

Kelly.:)

I guess I'm weird. I don't find it wise to play with a 1000lb+ animal with sharp hooves and teeth that cannot differentiate between hurting and 'playing'. :eek:

ms raven
Jun. 1, 2007, 04:03 AM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....

I don't think it's a matter of which horse is happiest. Both horses are working, regardless of whether they want to or not. They both look comfortable doing what they are doing and more than capable of performing the movements they are doing without difficulty.

I know the bay is a breed that loves to please and thrives on the bond that exists between man and his horse. The grey has freedom to do more of what he pleases but the bay is getting more mini rewards for doing what pleases his rider. When he is finished being displayed he will likely be turned out to graze while the grey, (I suspect) might be lead back to a stall to stay till his next performance.

In the end, I am neither, enjoy watching them both and will strive for a bond as close with my mare, both on the ground, and in the air.

Kelly G
Jun. 1, 2007, 07:27 AM
Okay, so I'm thinking the whole "horse play" thing has pretty well run it's course about now and is going around in circles a tad, but I've gotta end on this note and say that every day I'm reminded that I'm a whole lot safer round 1000 + lbs of horse I've got that relationship/bond with, like Sexy [Cortes], than I am around ones I don't, so I'm pretty content that it more than pays off for me. And San Miranda, sorry I hadn't answered you sooner, but for what it's worth, I also think that although the degree of training of the bay horse is pretty awe inspiring, based on the footage of the two, the grey horse is the "happier" horse.
Kelly.:)

San Miranda
Jun. 1, 2007, 08:20 AM
:D

Bring out the champagne and pop the cork.



by geeves someone has got it!!!


Well done Kelly G:winkgrin: and thankyou.

I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone out there at all, who understood the point that I was making.

Here is wishing you many happy and cherished moments between you and your horses.

Cheers
Kylie Thomson

Red Barn
Jun. 1, 2007, 09:16 AM
Congratulations, San Miranda.

You've actually nagged somebody into saying what you want to hear - sort of (I notice Kelly put quote marks around the word "happier.")

I don't know how old you are, or what your experience with horses might be, but I think you're making a fundamental mistake in your analysis of these two videos, and I suspect this has more to do with some romantic notion you've picked up about the "magic" of horse/human relationships than with anything concrete in the experience of real, live horses.

You seem to assume that because horse #1 has been trained to APPEAR "free" and "happy" to a human viewer, then he actually IS happy and free. Pretty big leap, don't you think? Is an actress weeping on stage really "sad"? Is a dog "playing dead" really DEAD? Jeez Louise!

SillyHorse
Jun. 1, 2007, 10:09 AM
You seem to assume that because horse #1 has been trained to APPEAR "free" and "happy" to a human viewer, then he actually IS happy and free. Pretty big leap, don't you think? Is an actress weeping on stage really "sad"? Is a dog "playing dead" really DEAD? Jeez Louise! Word!

hitchinmygetalong
Jun. 1, 2007, 10:18 AM
Has no one else played with your horse like that in a pasture, letting them run after you?

Never. Not ever. Never never never. And I don't think any of my mentors would do such a thing either.

I have to confess, I have tried to watch the video posted by the OP but can't get past the first minute or two. B.O.R.I.N.G. :sleepy:

Huntertwo
Jun. 1, 2007, 10:21 AM
A little too close for comfort for me. I trust my mare, but certainly wouldn't want her chasing after me with pinned ears, which is what I saw on the video clip...:no:

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 1, 2007, 10:46 AM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....


This is called ANTHROPOMORPHIZING.

slc2
Jun. 1, 2007, 11:04 AM
"happiness" is a very subjective thing for most people. for many people, i think their view of what the 'happy horse' looks like is downright scary.

i don't feel the white andalusian looks in the least bit happy, but there's a reason I call them 'Andelusions'. some of the most attractive, showy breeds are the subject of the most delusional thinking.

one barn manager thought my WB was 'happy' when she was chasing him around the arena with a whip, and he had his tail over his back and was looking this way and that and running as fast as he could. she put him in the arena away from the other horses at a time of day he wasn't accustomed to it, and was PLEASED when he stood at the fence anxiously and pranced back and forth, calling to his pals. she felt that looked 'happy'.

i do believe that many people do far too much anthropomorphosizing of their horse's behaviors. i agree with eclectic. not that that is going to cause life on the planet as we know it to end, but i think the part i like about it the least is not at all that they anthropomorphosize, but that people who DON'T are somehow less gifted and less human.

having your horse chase you in the paddock, 'playing games' with him, this is dangerous. i did that once with my neighbor and she wound up in the hospital. she nearly bled to death. i learned that lesson when i was about 9 yrs old. and that's the name of that tune. horses are not toys.

but if someone wants to lean on their horse, hug him, squeal at him, scream dainty nothings at him - go ahead. it is not dangerous and as i get older and more senile, i can see that all creeping up on me.

i love it for example when my neighbor drives regally around her yard on her golf cart with her supercilious little dog on the seat next to her. as long as she doesn't hurl rocks at me cause i don't do that, i'm fine with it. and she doesn't. she's a grand old lady who has given greatly to the community, if she wants to drive her dog around god bless 'er. and the little dog? well i guess when the neighbor dislocated her hip the dog was her only company most long painful days, and the cart is her only really comfortable way to commune. god bless the both of them. she can talk to the dog however she wants.

sorry, i almost wrote 'eclectus'.

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 1, 2007, 11:42 AM
[quote=slc2;2472251sorry, i almost wrote 'eclectus'.[/quote]

Isn't that some type of parrot? :confused: No, relation, obviously! :D

Kelly G
Jun. 1, 2007, 06:57 PM
OK, so I'm pretty over this about now, and Red Barn, trust me honey, nobody could "nag" me into anything. I don't know San Miranda personally at all, and I could see that she was labouring her point a bit over the last couple of days [as have I mine], but I guess she feels strongly about what she feels, so I can appreciate her persistance, sometimes it can be, er, tough!!! I did read her profile, which was pretty interesting, and it mentions that, among other things, she apparently trained with Nuno [as did I, though not for anywhere near as long as I wish I had], and anyone who can appreciate how extraordinary Nuno was has an edge with me.

Now, as to this thread, well, I'm, ahem, not one to need a crowd behind me to make a judgement call. What's bemused me most about reading the thread over the last couple of days is the utter certainty from some people that they are not and could not be wrong, that there is not and could not be a better way of doing things than what they already do. Well, good for them if they've got it all worked out, but with the training of a few hundred horses under my belt, and many years spent doing things both the traditional way and the not so traditional way [and with an enormous way still to go in the learning process], I can say with "real" certainty that those who feel this way are wrong, there is still enormous room for improvement in the way horses are generally handled, and it's nothing to do with some condescending crap about the way some of us choose to "play with our horses". It's about better understanding horses in the first place, and what makes them tick and how to get the best out of them. I regularly read the responses about training related issues from lots of people on these forum threads, and sorry to say but many people just don't get it, though they seem to believe with utter conviction that they do.

Sadly, for many people, this is the way it goes, they go along doing things the way the masses do things, and if anyone suggests anything different, they shoot them down in flames with the "power of the masses" behind them, and things continue to follow their allotted course [kind of like when the world was flat and people who were just a little too forward thinking were called "witches" and burned at the stake], sometimes even for centuries. Then, one day, often waaay down the track, there's either irrevocable proof that there's a better way after all, or someone high profile shows that there's a better way, and the masses, now instilled with the courage of the group behind them, enthusiastically follow. Ironically, it's the very same thing that initially made the likes of Parelli and Roberts so successful. That's why the masses are always ten steps behind those few brave souls who look outside the square in the first place for a better way, without needing peer pressure to convince them to do it. It's the very same mentality that has people going out each year and buying a new wardrobe of clothes and wearing the same hair style as the latest celebrity, the same mentality that has the dressage riders, the western riders, and the hunt riders, etc, all pointlessly fighting about who's "best" on this very forum, and it's the same mentality that creates the need for government in the first place. I've tried hard to be polite about some of what's gone on on this thread, but about now my patience has run a little dry.

And on that note,
cheers,
Kelly.:)

Jasper'sMom
Jun. 1, 2007, 11:26 PM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....

I don't think I could choose. Both horses appear to be well trained. I think that horses do well with clear training and are unhappy (and really driven a bit crazy) with muddled signals, even when they are well intentioned. I don't think it matters if it's beginner mistakes or inconsistency at an "advanced" level. I'm not sure a horse can distinguish between being well trained under saddle or being well trained to do a "circus" act with just a flimsy halter. In both cases, the horse is acting in an "unnatural" manner, i.e. doing what the humans around him/her are requesting.

Honestly, I think that my retired 8 yr old OTTB is happier than both of them. He spends 24/7 in a big pasture, with 3 buddies, grazing and being a horse. When I come out to see him, he runs up to me, gets some treats and a nice scratch, maybe some grooming, all in exchange for being nicely behaved with me. On a big day, we go for a trail ride. I think that is one happy horse. If he had his way, he might scrap the trail rides, and spend all his time in that nice grass pasture with his dependable herd, but he goes along with me anyway. Why? I don't know, that's just how horses are. And I think that's a big part of why we like them. They are generous, and they accommodate all of our crazy whims. They will try to do western pleasure, they will try to jump fences, they will try to do dressage, they will try to do airs above the ground. Horses are the best, and I don't think we should get too hung up on whether we like certain disciplines best or certain types of acts or whatever, we should all just try to be good to our sweet horses. :D

Auventera Two
Jun. 2, 2007, 12:28 AM
Lovely video, thanks for posting it. :) I can't care less what other people think about the horse, but I do find it sad that horse people have to be so vile and hateful. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Whatever. But the amount of hatred that spews forth from coth is just amazing. :no: I hope you people aren't this angry in real life.

No, I don't chase my horses and let them chase me. Mainly because I'd probably twist an ankle and go *ss over teakettle, but in any case, I do appreciate the bravery and beauty this girl portrays. I would guarantee that most all of our horses would flip us the bird and wander off to stare over the fence if we tried to dance and run and have him follow us the whole while. So it is quite clear the girl has a bond with the horse, and he is well trained. I think the number one problem with horses is lack of training and lack of work.

And yes, I do see the stallion as being happy. If he were pissed at the world and everybody in it, there is no way he'd be chasing her around, rearing and leaping through the air. Trained or not, halter or not, she is not holding him with a line. He's free to do what he wants in that great big arena. And its clear that he enjoys what he's doing :)

Kudos to you and good luck in whatever your endeavor with your equine. Be it dressage, dancing and chasing, reining, polo, or nothing but grooming.

Bats79
Jun. 2, 2007, 08:31 AM
I like the video, it reminds me of opera but if the horse is so happy and she has such trust in him why is she carrying a stick. The horse doesn't need a direction pointer. The stick is there to ensure that the girl stays the "alpha" in the group. Therefore the horse is really doing what he is told - not objecting and surely enjoying it but still doing what he is told.

No horse is every "free" in the sense that some on this thread seem to think. They are constrained by the herd environment and the pecking order and whether we do dressage, jumping, western or "liberty" we can ensure that our horses are happy. Just because someone's horse is "free" to toss its head and flick its mane doesn't make it any happier than my dressage horse.

And unless you are willing to "wear the bruises" like the other foals and horses do only a FOOL plays with a horse on the horse's terms.

Kelly G
Jun. 2, 2007, 05:22 PM
AGAIN, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ABOUT PLAYING WITH HORSES ON THE HORSE'S TERMS! IT'S ABOUT WORKING WITH HORSES ON MORE BALANCED AND EMPATHETIC TERMS. IT'S FINE TO BE THE ALPHA, HORSES HAVE NO PROBLEM ACCEPTING A FAIR ALPHA [EVEN THOSE STALLIONS I'VE WORKED WITH HAVE HAD NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER ACCEPTING A FAIR ALPHA]. IT'S ABOUT EVENING OUT THE PLAYING FIELD A TAD, SO TO SPEAK. THE TYPICAL HORSE/OWNER RELATIONSHIP HAS THE HORSE EXPRESSING ITSELF QUITE LITTLE [OR, AT TIMES, NOT AT ALL], BUT BECAUSE THAT'S ALL MOST OF US EVER GET A GLIMPSE OF, WE ASSUME THAT'S ALL MOST HORSES HAVE TO OFFER, WHEREAS THEY USUALLY HAVE SO MUCH MORE PERSONALITY THAN THAT, AND BY GIVING THEM A LITTLE MORE "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION", FOR WANT OF A BETTER TERM [WITHOUT IN ANY WAY RELINQUISHING CONTROL], WE ALLOW THEM TO EXPRESS THAT MORE [I SEEM TO BE FOREVER SAYING WE SHOULD "LISTEN TO OUR HORSES" MORE. WE'RE NOT LEFT WITH LESS CONTROL BY LEARNING BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF OUR HORSES, WE'RE LEFT WITH MORE CONTROL]. THAT'S WHERE IT ALL GOES PEAR-SHAPED WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO EXPLAIN IT, THOUGH. MOST PEOPLE SEEM TO SEE IT ALL AS BLACK AND WHITE, EITHER WE HAVE THE CONTROL AND THINGS ARE EXACTLY AS THEY USUALLY ARE, OR WE RELINQUISH CONTROL TO THE HORSE, AS IF THERE'S NO IN-BETWEEN. AND IT'S THE IN-BETWEEN THAT THE OP AND MYSELF HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, NOT RELINQUISHING CONTROL.

LOOK, SORRY TO GO BACK AGAIN TO CORTES, BUT HE'S SUCH A GREAT EXAMPLE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. HE ARRIVED HERE, HAVING BEEN RIDDEN BY A DOMINANT ASS FOR THE FIRST FOUR YEARS OF HIS RIDDEN LIFE, HAVING THEN SPENT FOUR YEARS WITH A GIRL WHO'D OBVIOUSLY LOVED HIM TO PIECES, AND WAS VERY GOOD TO HIM, BUT HADN'T "SORTED" HIS PAST PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS AT ALL, SO WHILE SHE COULD GET HIM TO STAY RELATIVELY CALM FOR THE MOST PART, HE HAD A HUGE NUMBER OF UNDEALT WITH ISSUES. WORST OF ALL, HE WAS GROSSLY HEADSHY, AND WHEN I'D TRY TO TEACH HIM TO ALLOW ME TO DEAL WITH IT WHILE I PATTED HIS FOREHEAD OR [WORSE STILL] EARS, HE'D "MANICALLY" TRY AND "BITE" AT ME OR THE LEAD OR WHATEVER HE COULD. I COULD SMACK HIM FOR IT, WHICH INITIALLY I DID, BUT, ALTHOUGH IT STOPPED THE "BITING", IT ALSO MADE HIM MORE NERVOUS AND DISTANT. ONCE I STEPPED BACK AND REALLY LOOKED AT HIS BEHAVIOUR THOUGH, I REALISED IT WAS LIKE FINGERNAIL CHEWING IN WE HUMANS, IT WAS A NERVOUS HABIT, AND NOT REMOTELY AGGRESSIVE. HE WASN'T TRYING TO BITE AT ALL, HE'D GET SOMETHING/ANYTHING BETWEEN HIS TEETH WHENEVER HE WAS NERVOUS ABOUT SOMETHING, AND LITERALLY "GRIND" HIS TEETH BACK AND FORTH ON IT. SO, I TOOK A DIFFERENT APPROACH, AND NO LONGER SMACKED HIM FOR IT, WHICH HAD BEEN TOTALLY COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE. INSTEAD, I INITIALLY ALLOWED HIM TO GRIND HIS TEETH ON SOMETHING [USUALLY A STICK OR HIS PLAY BALL] WHILE I RUBBED HIS EARS OR DID WHATEVER WAS MAKING HIM NERVOUS, AND GRADUALLY "WEANED" HIM FROM FEELING HE NEEDED THE "CRUTCH" OF THE TEETH GRINDING. NOW, HE'S NOT AT ALL HEADSHY AND ANY DAY TO DAY PHOBIAS ARE GONE, AND HE VERY RARELY GETS NERVOUS AND RESORTS TO THE GRINDING. WHEN HE DOES, I COMFORT HIM AND HE'S OKAY ALMOST INSTANTLY.

I'M THE ONE WHO, AT 12 YRS [HIM, NOT ME], HAS TAKEN THIS HORSE'S FEARS AWAY FOR HIM, THROUGH SIMPLY SHOWING GREATER THAN TYPICAL UNDERSTANDING, AND I CANNOT EXPRESS HOW MUCH TRUST HE SUBSEQUENTLY HAS IN ME. HE ALSO HAD THE HABIT OF IMPATIENTLY/NERVOUSLY NIPPING WHEN HE WAS EXCITED, AND INSTEAD OF THE INITIALLY SMACKING, SCOLDING HIM [OR TRYING PARELLI SOLUTIONS, WHICH STOPPED HIM NIPPING, BUT HAD A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON HIS PERSONALITY, AND MADE HIM WITHDRAWN], I INSTEAD USED A COMBINATION OF 1.GIVING HIM A MORE ACCEPTABLE OUTLET FOR WHEN HE WAS EXCITED/NERVOUS [HOLDING STICK/BALL WHILE HE PLAYED WITH IT], 2.TEACHING HIM A DEFINITE "NO" SIGNAL, AND 3.SLOWLY TEACHING HIM TO RELAX, STRESS LESS AND BE MORE PATIENT. THERE'S NOTHING COMPLICATED OR "OUT THERE" ABOUT THIS WAY OF TRAINING. IT'S JUST ABOUT USING PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE IN PLACE OF TEXT BOOKS WHEREVER NECESSARY. IRONICALLY, THE COMMON SENSE NEEDED TO "GET INTO A HORSE'S HEAD" AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S BEHIND DIFFERENT BEHAVIOURS IS NOT TOO DIFFERENT TO WHAT'S REQUIRED WHEN DEALING WITH PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEIR BEHAVIOUR TENDS TO BE A SIMPLE COMBINATION OF INSTINCT AND A SIMPLIFIED VERSION OF OUR OWN THINKING.

BECAUSE OF THE DEGREE OF TRUST WE HAVE, THE PLAYING ON THE LONGE IS A GIVEN. CORTES IS EVERY BIT AS OBEDIENT AS ANY OTHER HORSE ON THE LONGE, IN FACT MORE SO, BUT INSTEAD OF HIM ONLY BEING ASKED TO WALK/TROT/CANTER AROUND FOLLOWING COMMANDS, HE'S ALLOWED, ON THOSE DAYS WHEN HE'S GOT "ANY" EXCESS ENERGY [WE'RE TALKING A VERY, ER, LAID BACK HORSE, HERE, BUT HE HAS HIS ENERGETIC MOMENTS SOME DAYS], TO HAVE A QUICK PLAY TIME BEFORE THE WORK STARTS. IT'S DICTATED BY ME [GIVING THE COMMAND TO CHANGE DIRECTION EVERY HALF CIRCLE OR SO AT CANTER, TO HALT, THEN TROT OR CANTER, ETC] BUT HE'S DOING THE STUFF THAT HE HAS MOST FUN WITH, AND HE GETS TO BUCK AND REAR AND PIGROOT AND GENERALLY JUST BE A HORSE FOR A LITTLE WHILE. HE THEN HAS A GOOD ROLL ON THE LONGE BEFORE STARTING THE REAL WORK. HE NEVER BUCKS OR REARS "AT" ME, OR IS IN ANY WAY DISRESPECTFUL, AND HE'S COMPLETELY UNDER CONTROL AT ALL TIMES, BOTH WHILE "PLAYING" AND OTHERWISE. IT'S JUST ABOUT UNDERSTANDING AND TRUSTING HIM ENOUGH TO GIVE HIM TIME TO LET OFF SOME STEAM WHEN HE NEEDS TO, WITHOUT ANY HANG UPS ABOUT ME RISKING RELINQUISHING CONTROL IN ANY WAY BY DOING IT. I HAVE A FAR HAPPIER AND MORE "TOGETHER" HORSE AS A RESULT OF THIS WAY OF TRAINING, AND WITHOUT DOUBT THIS IS THE SAFEST, MOST RESPECTFUL AND CONTENTED STALLION [OR HORSE IN GENERAL] I'VE WORKED WITH IN A VERY LONG TIME.

FROM LOOKING AT THE OP'S VIDEO, MY FEELING AND THE OP'S [WE SPOKE FOR A WHILE ON THE PHONE YESTERDAY] IS THAT THIS HORSE IS TRAINED ALONG PRETTY MUCH THE SAME PRINCIPLES. AND, AS TO THE WHIP THE GIRL IS HOLDING IN THE VIDEO, AS I SAID IN A PREVIOUS POST, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED I'D ASSUME IT'S THERE AS AN EASY TO SEE "REMINDER" TOOL, BECAUSE WHEN EXCITED AND "PLAYING", HORSES, LIKE HUMANS, OR DOGS, OR ANYTHING ELSE, CAN OCCASIONALLY FORGET THEMSELVES AND GET A BIT BOISTEROUS, AND I'D IMAGINE THAT, LIKE MYSELF, IF AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS THE GIRL WOULD USE THE WHIP TO SIMPLY SIGNAL ENOUGH, EASE OFF. OKAY, NOW I DON'T KNOW IF EXPLAINING THIS HAS MADE WHAT BOTH THE OP AND MYSELF HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS ANY CLEARER FOR ANYBODY, BUT I TRULY DO HOPE SO, 'COS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF THE TWO OF US BEING ACCUSED OF BEING "FOOLS" AS BATS 79 SO POLITELY PUT IT, BECAUSE OF A COMPLETE MISCOMPREHENSION OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID.

KELLY.:)

horsegalriding
Jun. 2, 2007, 07:56 PM
Shortly after I bought my PRE stallion, I took him to the round pen and turned him loose. He took off like a shot, going around and around as fast as he could. I was still in the pen, mind you. He changed direction a couple times as I was glued to the inside of the fence, trying to not be run over. I finally walked to the center of the pen, and he came charging dfirectly to me. I thought I was a goner for sure. He came to a screeching halt right in front of me and tossed his mane a couple times. I patted him and then turned my back and started walking away. He put his head at my right hip and walked with me. I turned left, then right, and he stayed right at my side.

Silly me, I thought it was pretty cool. I guess he must have been beaten a few times to learn that behavior!

slc2
Jun. 3, 2007, 08:32 AM
Kelly G, I think the thing you might be missing is that if someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make them some sort of dumb swine who doesn't know how to 'bond' with a horse or that they have some lesser understanding than you.

I have maybe experienced something different than you. I watched a circus trainer train one of these 'freedom' acts. I watched how it is done. The 'freedom' is a result of time after time after time of training, training training, using side lines, longe lines, harnesses and multiple people in the ring with whips. The horse is repeated the routine over and over and over and over. And I can assure you, there is nothing lofty, spiritual or complex about it. It is training - pure and simple - just like training a dog to lie down or sit on command. Some people do it more gradually than others, but it's all the same. I see this very differently from you - and not just because of this one experience, but because of many with horses.

Like all successful training, this training involves capitalizing on something horses naturally do - run around. Horses run around. They run towards people, they run away. They pin their ears, kick, and run off. But dressage is also based on the same kind of thing, and so is western pleasure, because horses do at times, when very relaxed, jog from grazing area to grazing area with their heads carried low. And so is saddle seat, because at times, horses prance about with their heads held high and their backs lowered and hocks behind. And so does hunt seat, because horses at times will canter along rhythmically and hop over obstacles.

Every kind od training takes something an animal naturally does and develops it in great detail. This is what training of every kind does.

If you like this sort of 'freedom act' vs any other kind of training, you are free to join the circus. For me, dressage, which combines so many different elements of what horses naturally do, and develops them to such a degree within a systematic framework, is my favorite type of training. It may not be yours - but don't degrade me or anyone else, because I don't happen to like exactly what you like.

Dressage, the way I look at it, allows a person to train a horse with a great deal of freedom and individuality, and still stay within that classical framework. I find it fine for me. You may not. You are free to do something else. But don't put people down who don't follow the same path you do.

Everyone can look at a picture and see something different in it. We all have different experiences and see the world in different ways. Forums are good because people can understand that theirs is not the only way to view the world and what they see around themselves. they open up people to a bigger world, and different ideas than they run into in their own little corner of the world. That's why I come here - not to have people agree with me, but to say what I think, and to see what other people think. I don't agree with people here on many subjects - what you don't understand is that they don't HAVE to agree. They don't HAVE to see what I see when I look at a picture. I can have opinions and so can they.

And quite frankly, the reason I'm here is because i KNOW my background is different from other people's and I am very interested in finding out exactly HOW what I learned is different from what other people learned. I want to know exactly why they think differently, and keep that always in mind that there are other ways of viewing dressage training when I work.

What you don't seem to understand is that people have REASONS for seeing somethng the way they see it. GOOD REASONS. And they don't have to agree with you and they don't have to agree with me. I come here for one reason and one reason alone - to see what people think about dressage, and why. For you to get so riled up because some people don't look at a short video clip and see EXACTLY what you see and agree EXACTLY with your opinion...I do truly feel sorry for you. And...sorry, but you aren't doing anything for the Gypsy breed by going around demanding people agree with you.

Red Barn
Jun. 3, 2007, 09:12 AM
What a lovely, well-reasoned post, slc.

I agree with you absolutely - about training in general, and dressage in particular. (Will wonders never cease!)

Thank you for putting it so clearly.

Horsecrazy27
Jun. 3, 2007, 11:07 AM
I thought this was beautiful.....and I think there is a "bond", "Soul connection", other wise this would not of been such a good team. I don't think a person off the streets would of accomplished the same thing with this horse or nor another horse person trained in this manner with out the time with this horse. With the animals at Sea World and other animal parks, there is a bond with the trainer/keeper it takes TIME to trust. There has to be a good connection in order to accomplish this with such trust in the lights, the crowd and the whole presentation.

I like to play with the NH so, I liked it and appriciated it. :)

I'm not saying that this is better than any type of riding---I'm saying it was nice and appriciated. I'm sure it was not accomplished over night and the time with this horse---I appriciate it.

debra
Jun. 3, 2007, 03:17 PM
I must be an unusually perverse and cynical person.

That first thing just looks like, if it went on for another couple minutes, would turn into some really smarmy sort of equine porn. Yuck.

That was my first thought too, but I was too afraid to say it.

Kelly G
Jun. 3, 2007, 06:45 PM
slc2, a few points for you:

1. If you'd like to take the time to read back through this thread you'll find that at no point have I said [or believed] people ought to rush out and "do as I do" or do as anyone in particular does, but I'll give you credit, suggesting I have is a helluva tried and true way to dismiss someone. Ironically, what I asked was that people don't be so bloody condescending and disrespectful with regards the way others might do things, just because they can't personally get their head around the notion. Problem is, some poor soul, like this OP, or a young girl asking for training advice a while back, or many others, gets on the forums and cops a completely unwaranted bullying all too often, and as far as I'm concerned it's totally unacceptable.

2. I suggested people respect training and handling methods other than their own, including the more unusual, not that they agree with them, but that they simply be respectful [and polite]. I use this forum to read about other people's perspectives, to help out where I can and to offer, where it seems appropriate, a perspective that's a little outside the box, as well as to help try and make sure that horses get a fair deal [in the face of the occasional "matcho" mentality that suggests a good flogging as an automatic "cure all" for any and all horse related issues]. I actually find, personally, that it's the more traditional thinking trainers who are most inclined to push their opinions onto others, and I suspect you might be confusing my unwillingness to put up with the rudeness that's been floating around on this thread with something it isn't.

3. And, this relates to the above, yes, I've also suggested that people [all of us] should try to keep an open mind about ANY and ALL reasonable training methods other than their own, to see if and where they can improve on the way they do things, and that there is very definitely still room for improvement. I very much stand by that belief.

4. Is it my understanding that you feel "dressage" and having the kind of relationship I and other people have mentioned with our horses are two seperate things, and are somehow opposed? Because, if so, I find that a pretty surprising notion! You see, I was actually brought up to believe that having a deeper understanding of one's horse was at the very heart of what dressage is all about.

There's nothing more transparent than people who run around merrily accusing others of trying to force their views down people's throats, while blatantly doing that very thing themselves, and unfortunately it's the oldest traditionalist trick in the book. If you can't get your head around and/or don't like to hear about other ways of doing things that are perhaps a bit out there, then that's your perogative, but please do the curtesy of treating those people with respect, and kindly resist the urge to put words that aren't there into my mouth. If the facts are on your side, they should be all the arguament you need. I can't help but wonder if you might be one of those "measuring contest" type people, who have an overwhelming need to have the last word, and who for every pat on the back they get, feel all the more that way, and truly, if that's the case then that's fine, 'cos I just don't have that same need, but I do have a bit of a thing about facts, and would appreciate if you'd try sticking with them!

PS. We've pretty well all seen circus, and I'd imagine many of us have seen horses being trained for circus, and if what was on the OP's video had looked just like what we've all seen a thousand times in the circus, then I don't think it would have been very impressive at all, but obviously to quite a few people, including myself, it looked refreshingly different, irrespective of the girl, the dress, the lights or the music. Oh, and I'm not an angry person, slc2, but I'm a very passionate person, and whatever I feel I tend to feel strongly [for example, about condescending asses giving other people a hard time for wanting a better relationship with their horses], and if you find that a difficult thing to relate to, well then I guess I feel sorry for you, too.

Kelly.:)

merrygoround
Jun. 3, 2007, 07:18 PM
Interesting footage. Definitely a "Don't try this at home".

And for those who think playing with larger than you animals is fun, entertainining or interesting--don't ever forget the two talented tiger trainers from Las Vegas-one of whom barely survived a miscomunication with an old friend. Sorry just can't remember their names, but I'm sure one of you will.

Kelly G
Jun. 3, 2007, 08:02 PM
With all due respect, merrygoround, tigers, like dogs, cats, eagles, sharks, are predators, their natural instinct is to EAT people. Horses are not predators, they're flight animals. They relish having an alpha, a leader, a protector, it makes them feel safer!!! If people would be too scared to relate like the person in the video to horses because they're BIG, no problem, that makes sense, they ARE big. Nobody's saying they can't be dangerous BECAUSE they're big and BECAUSE they're FLIGHT ANIMALS! They can. But, if we're running around comparing horses with tigers, lions, or any other predators, and baseing any inherant dangers on that thinking, then we're missing the target and hitting the tree. We humans are so much closer to the mentality of a tiger or a shark than horses, because we are actually predators [and have been for a big chunk of our evolution]. Horses are closer to the mentality of a dear or a sheep, because they're flight animals, it's just that we feel more threatened by them 1. Because of their size coupled with their inherant nervousness [which comes from being flight animals], and 2. Because after centuries of being closer to humans, the domesticated ones have evolved to have less fear of us than sheep and especially dear. But they remain flight animals, which is why they let people a tenth of their size push them around and get them to do all manner of things they'd rather not do, in the first place.

Kelly.:)

slc2
Jun. 3, 2007, 08:41 PM
I only had time to read #4 , kelly, but you're accusing me of believing something I don't believe in - at all, and again, I think, largely because I don't like this video.

I think that accusing someone of having unpleasant, negative sounding beliefs that separate the relationship with the horse from their work with the horse is a pretty poor way to discuss this video.

And in fact, I feel it's through dressage that my relationship with my horse becomes the most sublime, but I feel that relationship is built in ALL moments with the horse. I have a rescue horse who today learned to allow a light mist from the hose touch his face without panicking. Without being forced or punished. And I get JUST as much pleasure and a feeling of communing with my horse when I work with him in dressage. It seems you feel that's somehow not possible - that the only way to 'Play' with the horse, to 'Bond' with the horse is by NOT doing dressage - one must do something else.

I feel it IS possible, and it is one of the many reasons I have stuck with dressage for so long, thru he** and high water. And I feel bad for people who DON'T feel it's possible.

Kelly G
Jun. 3, 2007, 10:03 PM
slc2. Have you heard what I'm been saying at all? I don't care about the video!!! It's a nice enough video, but it's irrelevant to me. YOU and others were condescending to the OP and to others who practice this [very broad] way of handling their horses, in general. And, I'm not okay with that personally, and I'm not okay with people being "spoken to" in that tone, period. I'm sorry if I was somehow confusing or unclear in this, but that was my issue, my sole issue, all along, till your second last post when you informed me that I obviously also wasn't partial to principles of dressage!

You said, and I quote:
If you like this sort of 'freedom act' vs any other kind of training, you are free to join the circus. For me, dressage, which combines so many different elements of what horses naturally do, and develops them to such a degree within a systematic framework, is my favorite type of training. It may not be yours - but don't degrade me or anyone else, because I don't happen to like exactly what you like.


And:
Dressage, the way I look at it, allows a person to train a horse with a great deal of freedom and individuality, and still stay within that classical framework. I find it fine for me. You may not. You are free to do something else.

I said you were being condescending and belittling, and you were, and then you were again, and I said it again, and so on and so on through the breadth of the thread. And, I later added that you were being closed minded in doing so, which is a given. And, now I'm adding that I know nothing whatsoever of and [with all due respect to those who do] care nothing for the "Gypsy" breed, so I fail to see how telling the likes of yourself to address people curteously can do them any particular harm [but to all those Gypsy breeders out there, if it has, I sincerely apologise], and that at 43 I've spent the past 30 years of my life caring for [and studying] no horse sport BUT dressage, and I actually thought that was pretty obvious already, so I'm left wondering what's next???? Here's a tip, though, how about you stop being condescending to myself and others [and stop thoroughly mis-quoting me] and I can stop having to waste hours of my time responding to this stuff? What do you think???

"Gypsy breed?" "against dressage principles?" Jeez, does this sort of "debate" really do it for you???
:no::no::no::no::no:

Kelly.:)

michcheypen
Jun. 3, 2007, 10:19 PM
Loved the music thanks for posting.Obviously it isn't dressage and we all know that but this video shows some aggression which others have stated.I have seen people play with their horses at a equestrian school I went to.And some of them got hurt.I don't want to teach my horses to be aggressive towards me.I want them to understand I am the alpha at all times.:)

San Miranda
Jun. 4, 2007, 07:08 AM
I just thought that it was a nice video and something positive to share with you all. I did not expect it to bring out so much negativity. :no:

If you understood the point I was trying to make, well and good.

If you like it, you like it. If you don't then you don't, no skin off my nose.


I just believe - Our horses mirror our 'selves' :yes:

merrygoround
Jun. 4, 2007, 08:34 AM
Ahh! Gee Gosh Kelly, Thanks for explaining the difference between predator-tigers-, and prey animals-horses. I never got it before. ;)

Regardless, stallions, and I had a wonderful one, can have mis-steps. That was my point. And stallions have been known to savage people and animals.

kkj
Jun. 4, 2007, 09:46 AM
From an artistic perspective, I sort of liked it. The lighting, the flowing, the white, the music.

From a horse perspective, it disturbed me a bit. The whip, the treats, the pinned ears.

Would definitely appeal to those who watched the "Horse Whisperer" and actually believed it.

I can't imagine having a big stallion chase me. My horse nickers to me and comes trotting to the gait when I call her. That is enough for me.

Kelly G
Jun. 4, 2007, 05:19 PM
merrygoround, so have rabbits [been known to attack people, as have rams and buck deers, and so on and so on....]! You compared a horse/stallion to a tiger, and you expected, what, nothing but agreement in response? Look, let's just pretend I've moved on from this thread after spending more than enough time discussing what are apparently [unbeknown to silly duffers like myself] viscious horses who could at any time attack their trainers like tigers and the like, can we? Because, I've moved on from this thread after spending more than enough time discussing, well, the above. But, I will say it's been interesting to watch just how greatly fear [as well as icky sensations when looking at things they consider overtly "artistic" and/or "orchestrated"] can colour people's judgement about what they see. Apologies San Miranda, I can't believe posting such a lovely [artistic] video could have created such a response either.
Kelly.:)

kkj
Jun. 5, 2007, 01:20 PM
KellyG you may think this is crazy but once I was attacked by a Jack Rabbit. Now technically a Jack Rabbit is a hare but still, that thing can really kick like a kangaroo and claw. My dog had got it when it was a baby and I nursed it back to health. It turned into a very agressive male.

I would let a stallion chase me before a tiger, but I would rather not enjoy either. Anthropomorphism can be a dangerous thing.

I have a great appreciation for art and humans' relationships with animals, but I prefer my horse not pin its ears and rear up a me.

Sandy M
Jun. 5, 2007, 02:48 PM
KellyG you may think this is crazy but once I was attacked by a Jack Rabbit. Now technically a Jack Rabbit is a hare but still, that thing can really kick like a kangaroo and claw. My dog had got it when it was a baby and I nursed it back to health. It turned into a very agressive male.


Shades of Monty Python and The Holy Grail!!! or perhaps, Pres. Carter? ROFLOL

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 5, 2007, 03:00 PM
Shades of Monty Python and The Holy Grail!!! or perhaps, Pres. Carter? ROFLOL

:lol::lol::lol:

You are dating yourself Sandy!!! (But, yes, I remember those too)

slc2
Jun. 5, 2007, 03:19 PM
I feel though that all horses can be dangerous. They weigh 10 times what we do and they are reactive and they move quickly. ANYTHING with those characteristics, whether it is being aggressive or not, has the potential to be dangerous. In fact, I think I and everyone else I know has been hurt many, many more times by the ordinary kind of thing with horses than the raging stallion or protective broodmare. Most accidents are hardly so dramatic or special.

And I look at this 'bonding' under the bigtop, and think that such a habit-based animal as a horse is going to be somethign tough to deal with post acting career.

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 5, 2007, 03:35 PM
I feel though that all horses can be dangerous. They weigh 10 times what we do and they are reactive and they move quickly. ANYTHING with those characteristics, whether it is being aggressive or not, has the potential to be dangerous. In fact, I think I and everyone else I know has been hurt many, many more times by the ordinary kind of thing with horses than the raging stallion or protective broodmare. Most accidents are hardly so dramatic or special.

And I look at this 'bonding' under the bigtop, and think that such a habit-based animal as a horse is going to be somethign tough to deal with post acting career.

No, actually if a horse is well circus trained (operant conditioning/conditioned response) you can usually get them to stop doing one thing by giving them another command. In other words, horse rears, give him a command to "lie down" or something. Conditioned responses become very engrained. Such horses are really dead broke and mostly equine seniors by the time they are performing, anyway.

Of course, as Roy Horn (Siegfried & Roy) found out, no matter how well an animal is trained, he may have flashbacks to his instinctive responses. But on the whole, well trained animals are safer than those that have not been domesticated and handled.

slc2
Jun. 5, 2007, 03:59 PM
yes, and do you recall the lady who got the high school horse and was saying it was levading all the time, and scaring the snot out of its riders? it isn't quite as simple as you suggest. people don't even realize they're cueing the horse to do things, they were trained, they just do it. they don't ever forget anything. the easter levading bunny also appeared to levade every time it didn't want to do something. when someone else gets the horse, it don't always work out too hot.

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
yes, and do you recall the lady who got the high school horse and was saying it was levading all the time, and scaring the snot out of its riders? it isn't quite as simple as you suggest. people don't even realize they're cueing the horse to do things, they were trained, they just do it. they don't ever forget anything. the easter levading bunny also appeared to levade every time it didn't want to do something. when someone else gets the horse, it don't always work out too hot.

Agreed, but that happens all the time with greenhorns and any horse. Then they run off to the natural horsemanship people......:winkgrin: Talk about a three ring circus :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bats79
Jun. 6, 2007, 08:28 AM
The OP said
"Everyone who owns horses should watch this!
This brought tears to my eyes, it shows an incredible bond between two souls.

I know from experience that the more time you spend with your horse, the more freedom you give him, the more you are humbled by these incredibly special creatures."

The implication being that everyone should be moved and impressed by this video.

As far as I can tell everyone was impressed with the "artistic" impression some of us have different feelings about how that artistic impression was achieved.

It seems that some people expect everyone have the same "opinion" as themselves or not comment. I prefer to comment and justify my reasons. I don't see where failing to agree with someone is the same as "putting them down".

slc2
Jun. 6, 2007, 08:32 AM
having a different opinion than another person is not, in fact, an attack on that person....all software design reviews to the contrary :)

some years ago someone informed me that a new pop psychology book declared that most women operate on the 'cheerleader' philosophy, that there is one person the group has to agree with, regardless of what the premise is, or those who don't agree get attacked, at times, by the entire group.

'oh how silly', i said at the time.

rcloisonne
Jun. 6, 2007, 11:02 AM
Of course, as Roy Horn (Siegfried & Roy) found out, no matter how well an animal is trained, he may have flashbacks to his instinctive responses. But on the whole, well trained animals are safer than those that have not been domesticated and handled.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Tigers are not domestic animals. It takes thousands of generations of selective breeding (for whatever trait) before a species is considered "domestic". Wild life experts were not at all surprised when that tiger attacked his trainer. The consensus was, "That's what tigers do! His act was completely normal behavior for a tiger."

All the training in the world can not overcome hardwired instinctual behaviors. One must selectively breed nondesirable traits out. Even then, domestic animals can run amok, as do humans - even more often than their animals.

I agree these "circus" horses are very well trained. There are several other videos in this series showing the same horse and rider/handler doing passable dressage. Others are being ridden through fire in advanced maneuvers with just leg contact. How many dressage horse are that well trained? :winkgrin:

slc2
Jun. 6, 2007, 11:31 AM
if it requires thousands of generations to become domesticated, then the horse is not domesticated either, it would have been domesticated at this point for about 600 generations.

Kelly G
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:12 PM
some years ago someone informed me that a new pop psychology book declared that most women operate on the 'cheerleader' philosophy, that there is one person the group has to agree with, regardless of what the premise is, or those who don't agree get attacked, at times, by the entire group.

'oh how silly', i said at the time.

So, I see this stuff is still going......for interest's sake, a small few of the earliest mature and constructive criticisms made about the video posted by the OP were:
"'freedom'? 'two souls bonding'? spare me." "if you believe that is all about "bonding souls" I got some nice moist real estate and a bridge for sale, today only, I'll give ya a special "just cuz u r u" discount." "
Gag...sorry, that's not for me" "That first thing just looks like, if it went on for another couple minutes, would turn into some really smarmy sort of equine porn. Yuck." "gaggers." "I smell Disney.Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech!"
So, yes, of course, it was all just good healthy contrary opinion, nothing to be offended by or to consider at all inappropriate. You're right slc, The OP, others and myself were obviously just after attention, that must have been it. Good lord, bats 79, slc2, the OP just posted a video in the sadly mistaken belief that others might like it the way she had. Clearly many didn't, and that's fine. But the above comments, as well as others, were childish, disrespectful and downright rude, deal with it!

Oh, and slc, just a thought, but, er, which of us has been hanging around this thread, still having digs at those who don't agree with them???
Kelly.:winkgrin:

wishes4horses
Jun. 6, 2007, 05:31 PM
Why are these videos on the dressage board?

spotted mustang
Jun. 6, 2007, 06:33 PM
Why won't anyone answer the questions!

Comparing JUST the two videos where each horse is been DISPLAYED - "Which horses it the happiest?"

Put yourself in place of each horse -"Which horse would you rather be?" ............ and why....

okay, I haven't seen the second video, but here's what I think the Andalusian in the first video is thinking:

"Damn, there she goes again. I'm getting real pissed off here: why won't she ever stand still so I can breed her already?!"

spotted mustang
Jun. 6, 2007, 06:53 PM
if it requires thousands of generations to become domesticated, then the horse is not domesticated either, it would have been domesticated at this point for about 600 generations.

Hmm...I'm trying to do the math here...but the horse was domesticated about 6000 years ago (around 4000 BC), and horses first reproduce at what age? Maybe age 3 on average? That would be 6000/3=2000 horse generations.

Although, how long it takes to "domesticate" a species depends on other things, too, such as how selectively animals are bred.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 12:28 PM
yeah i didnt' do the math by breeding age, but by lifespan (learning something rather than reproducing, which i thought was the subject), which idid make short, but not 2-3 yrs. but however one does the math, i think 1.. 'domestication' wears off very quick in horses and in any other animal, i'd say about 3 months, LOL, i don't think it's something an animal 'inherits' after so many thousands of generations no matter HOW one chooses to calculate it, i think that's impossible and defies all principles of logic (but hey, carry on) 2. i don't feel it's useful to argue about the distinction between 'training' and 'domestication' for the purposes of this thread (others do so carry on with it)

look, guys, this thing about whether people like this video or not is OPINION. you can argue all you want, it doesn't change the basic thing. some people like it and some don't, and all the arguing about what training, or domestication or other subjects here, in the world isn't going to change that.

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 7, 2007, 02:23 PM
yeah i didnt' do the math by breeding age, but by lifespan (learning something rather than reproducing, which i thought was the subject), which idid make short, but not 2-3 yrs. but however one does the math, i think 1.. 'domestication' wears off very quick in horses and in any other animal, i'd say about 3 months, LOL, i don't think it's something an animal 'inherits' after so many thousands of generations no matter HOW one chooses to calculate it, i think that's impossible and defies all principles of logic (but hey, carry on) 2. i don't feel it's useful to argue about the distinction between 'training' and 'domestication' for the purposes of this thread (others do so carry on with it)

look, guys, this thing about whether people like this video or not is OPINION. you can argue all you want, it doesn't change the basic thing. some people like it and some don't, and all the arguing about what training, or domestication or other subjects here, in the world isn't going to change that.

In fact, I think it is more than just OPINION (because well reasoned opinion is based on fact and logic and thus may connote that there is a "right" view and a "wrong" view.) I think it is a matter of TASTE. And where aesthetic values are concerned, there is never a "right" or a "wrong," there is just DIFFERENT. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

spotted mustang
Jun. 7, 2007, 03:50 PM
yeah i didnt' do the math by breeding age, but by lifespan

Maybe we need to differentiate between domestication and training. Domestication is a long-term genetic process. Animals are selected according to their characteristics and crossed with other animals having desirable characteristics. And so, over many generations, wolves turn into poodles and wild steppe horses turn into Holsteiners or Arabians or whatever. So what matters there if you calculate generation is age of first breeding.

Training is what an individual animal is taught over a lifespan. Its offspring won't inherit what the parent has learned; but it may inherit the parent's trainability.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 03:58 PM
for nearly all imaginable purposes, 'opinion' and 'taste' are quite similar. 'taste' suggests politely that it is more a matter of personal choice than moral imperative :)....

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 7, 2007, 04:18 PM
for nearly all imaginable purposes, 'opinion' and 'taste' are quite similar. 'taste' suggests politely that it is more a matter of personal choice than moral imperative :)....

I guess I was thinking of expert opinions, like medical opinions. My insurance company would pay for a second opinion on my surgery to make sure that the first one was sound.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2007, 06:11 PM
ah. i usually think of them in the context of 'opinions are like ********, everyone has one...'

Eclectic Horseman
Jun. 8, 2007, 09:29 AM
ah. i usually think of them in the context of 'opinions are like ********, everyone has one...'

Oh, yeah, right. Forgot about that one. :lol: