KY Dressage Federation Show - 4 Year Old Gypsy Stallion Wins 2nd!

[ECSescilla]

Just wanted to announce that a 4 year old Gypsy Stallion, Blarney Stone's "Sailor", took second place at the KY Dressage Federation show today at the Horse park against all breeds including Warmbloods and Friesians!!! He behaved and performed beautifully and he was the only gypsy horse there. He's not mine...but I'm so proud of all the Gypsy Horses getting out there and showing their abilities. He's only one of many who have been making crowds say "WOW". WAY TO GO SAILOR!!!!!

Elizabeth

[tempichange]

It was a solid ride and he's a pretty boy. But my god... those feathers.

[ECSescilla]

I love the feather flying around...ads some "flare" :)

[tempichange]

I don't know, feathers don't do it for me, and I own welsh cob who have hair abound. To me if you're going to do the discipline, it's not the color of the ribbon, but the actual score.

[Sabine]

alright ladies- how about photographs, vids or something- for those of us underpriviledged who live far away from KY???

[cheekyhorse]

WAY too much hair for my liking!! However, it is very exciting, and good for our sport to see other breeds excel. So way to go!!

[RamblinRoseRanch]

I don't know, feathers don't do it for me, and I own welsh cob who have hair abound. To me if you're going to do the discipline, it's not the color of the ribbon, but the actual score.

Strictly a western rider here, so I don't know what this means... but his score was a 61. He'd only been undergoing dressage training for ten weeks, so I don't know if that's a good score or not (especially to be four years old) . :)

[RamblinRoseRanch]

WAY too much hair for my liking!! However, it is very exciting, and good for our sport to see other breeds excel. So way to go!!

We've actually decided to cut the tops off of some tube socks for Killian's next pedicure, lol.

The stallion in question is my boy's sire. His dam is currently being shown/jumped by her owner's fourteen year old.

Killian is a very athletic little guy, I can't wait to start him US. He won't be two until March, so we've a ways to go.

[ECSescilla]

Yep, the score was a 61...and the color of the ribbon reflects the
score. Not bad for such a young horse with only a few weeks of training, and a Gypsy to top it off. The feather, I guess they are a personal preference, and any time something is "different", it will take some time for some to accept it, even if they never like it. But, the Judges sure seemed to LOVE it! :) He left with a great score, a beautiful ribbon, and some due respect. Watch out...the world will be seeing lots more where this came from! :)

Elizabeth

[ECSescilla]

Thanks cheekyhorse for the positive attitude :)

[tempichange]

61 is average (I assume Training level test 1?) and that he was correct, but average. For training level 65's and up is where he needs to be.

But Mary Jo will bring him there.

[Blarney Stone Acres]

Well today he got second again scoring 64.3.8
This is his first time out there. I do believe Mary Jo is just getting started!!

[ECSescilla]

Way to go Sailor...yes, I didn't mean to sound like a 61 would win at a national level or anything. But no one can argue that a horse with only a couple weeks training, and a breed not yet accepted as being likely to excel in this arena, is something to be proud of. The breed is relatively new (in the US, anyway), and has been gaining respect over that time rapidly.

Hmmm...makes me think...I recall reading that this very same thing happened to the Friesians. ;)

Elizabeth

[tempichange]

You know, I compete with an "off breed" and I don't care if I beat a warmblood or the pony down the road, I care about scoring at a certain level and presenting my pony and myself as correctly as possible. There isn't a breed bias. Dressage is an open sport, it doesn't matter if the breed is popular or not. It's about performance.

There is a reason why certain breeds excel at the sport, it's because they meet the criteria that the sport requires, usually both conformationally and personality wise and not because the judge didn't like spots, or big funeral coach horses.

The reason why friesians weren't so accepted is because generally their canter is very weak and the walk can tend to run lateral. Once they began breeding for the sport, and not driving, you had a horse that could successfully go and do it.

Same thing with ponies, arabs, apps or any other minority breed. When they begin to tailor the program, more individuals will go to upper levels.

[Blarney Stone Acres]

Well apparently this gypsy pony has started off pretty well!!!

[tempichange]

Well apparently this gypsy pony has started off pretty well!!!

Not to belittle, but any horse should be able to score 60s in training level with 10 weeks of pro training.

[ECSescilla]

Exactly...and that's why we're so excited about this Gypsy Horse doing so well with so little training...heck, he was just started under saddle before that! This is without breeding to a certain type that fits the typical conformation/personality that most often excel in this area. Yes, the breed will inevitably develop in various ways depending on what different groups of breeders prefer - it has happened to almost every breed I can think of.

But this has not yet happened to a great degree, and already there are horses out there turning heads...like it or not, people are surprised to see Gypsy Horses in disciplines that their body types would generally not be well-suited. But they are doing it. More than I can mention...they are exceling in dressage, hunter/jumper, English, Western, driving (of course)...you name it...except for racing...lol, you will see a Gypsy Horse of the current "draft" body type doing it and doing it well, and with MUCH less training under their belts than most at the same stage.

The intelligence, willing personality, curiosity to try new things, and agility despite a larger body size, are only a few of the traits that make this breed one to watch in the next few years.

There are SO many people who have been involved with MANY breeds of horses...Arabians, Warmbloods, Friesians, everything under the sun...who have found the Gypsy Horse and never went back. In fact, I don't know of a single person with whom that was NOT the case (except for a few who couldn't decide and kept 2 breeds, one always being the Gypsy). And with the community involved with this breed being so small, most of us know eachother. It truly is an experience like no other...these horses are not your typical horses and you can't even begin to describe their depth of personality, intelligence, etc etc etc to someone who has not yet owned one.

I hope every worthy human being has the experience of being owned by a Gypsy Horse one day :)

Elizabeth

[SonatyOne]

Way to go Sailor!! It's so nice to see the Gypsy breed performing in various disciplines and doing well. Blarney Stone Acres, you must be so proud of your boy.:yes:

[Blarney Stone Acres]

Yes I am proud of my boy. Today he scored again 64.348 this time taking first. I do have to say that although he won't make the Olympics apparently a good gypsy horse with agood trainer can hold his own against the 'big boys" No reason not to excell in his own breed and to be able to accomplish so much in a short period of time against other larger seasoned breeds. Apparently with three different judges in such large horse show,he was able to hold his own.

[Equibrit]

Is there some reason why this horse should NOT do this?
He's got 4 legs and a trainer - right?

[ECSescilla]

Gypsy Horse people don't think he shouldn't be able because we know the breed...but there are SOOOOO many who are surprised that a small draft-like breed would be able to do this given their body type alone. I wish more people thought like you, Equibrit!

[Equibrit]

They generally don't run into problems until about 2nd level. Any horse with all body parts (maybe with the exception of eyes) and and little training should be able to manage Training level.

[ECSescilla]

Update from Blarney Stone Acres...Today was the last entry for Blarney in training level one at the KDF show which is USEF USDF, at the horse park. He scored agian 64.348 and this time took first place. Three different judges so I guess Blarney Stone's boy can't be too bad!!! They said the crowds around him afterwards were so numerous that in order to get him back to the stall, Mary Jo the trainer ran him across the field as a shortcut. He was a huge hit, and I'm so happy for him and for Blarney Stone Acres.

One day, seeing GHs in the dressage arena doing well will be common and not a surprise to so many...then we'll find something else to brag about, because this breed is FULL of surprises. :)

Thanks for your support Equibrit...wish everyone thought like you...we wouldn't have to go out there and prove what SO MANY think is not possible with a draft horse.

Elizabeth

[ECSescilla]

Well, when he gets to 2nd level, I shall be back to share the good news!

[ECSescilla]

Yes I am proud of my boy. Today he scored again 64.348 this time taking first. I do have to say that although he won't make the Olympics apparently a good gypsy horse with agood trainer can hold his own against the 'big boys" No reason not to excell in his own breed and to be able to accomplish so much in a short period of time against other larger seasoned breeds. Apparently with three different judges in such large horse show,he was able to hold his own.

Sorry...didn't realize you had already posted the update yourself...you'll find it again later in the thread. Congrats!!! :)
Elizabeth

[Fantasia Farms]

Congratulations Blarney Stone Acres and their beautiful 4 y/o stallion, Blarney Stone's Sailor, what a great start to a promising Dressage career.:) I had the pleasure of meeting this wonderful stallion a few weeks back, and fell in love with him! I am glad to see the Gypsy breed out there showing against traditional dressage breeds and not just doing well, but winning! There are those out there, in the equine industry that, for some reason, do not want to see this breed succeed. I think it is because they will no longer be able to say things like, "Gypsy owners are crazy for spending so much money on a lawn ornament, that just looks pretty, and has no real use" and instead, they might have to admit that the breed IS capable of competing and has a versatile athletic ability, just like almost every other breed. I think Blarney Stone Acres has proved a point this show weekend, this breed is capable of competing against the big boys, and like it or not, they are here to stay. For those who like smooth sailing on calms waters...look out, I do believe that a Gypsy hurricane will be rocking the boat mighty hard and you may get a little wet!:yes:

[Thomas_1]

Is there some reason why this horse should NOT do this?
He's got 4 legs and a trainer - right? Yes... snobbery :winkgrin:

There's a highland pony in the UK that is an advanced dressage horse.

Because its a highland pony it also competes dressed "Aux naturale" in all its hairy glory.

Mind you it helped to overcome the ridiculous prejudices of some because it was owned by my ex friend and neighbour Lady Joicey at the start of its career. For those who don't know, she was patron of the British Dressage Society and competed for the British Olympic team and owned many top horses including Powder Monkey. In addition The Joicey Scheme funded 12 top trainers and sponsored young riders at top level.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall if someone tried to tell her a gypsy cob or highland pony couldn't hold its own at top level at dressage.

[ECSescilla]

Yes... snobbery :winkgrin:

There's a highland pony in the UK that is an advanced dressage horse.

Because its a highland pony it also competes dressed "Aux naturale" in all its hairy glory.

Mind you it helped to overcome the ridiculous prejudices of some because it was owned by my ex friend and neighbour Lady Joicey at the start of its career. For those who don't know, she was patron of the British Dressage Society and competed for the British Olympic team and owned many top horses including Powder Monkey. In addition The Joicey Scheme funded 12 top trainers and sponsored young riders at top level.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall if someone tried to tell her a gypsy cob or highland pony couldn't hold its own at top level at dressage.

That is a wonderful story Thomas_1. Thanks for sharing.

[tempichange]

There are those out there, in the equine industry that, for some reason, do not want to see this breed succeed.

My dear I'm all for diversity in the dressage arena. If the horse does well, it does well. However, it shouldn't be a them versus us senario because dressage isn't like that. I think it's highly queer that you would imply that the entire equine industry is out to get this breed.

I think it is because they will no longer be able to say things like, "Gypsy owners are crazy for spending so much money on a lawn ornament, that just looks pretty, and has no real use" and instead, they might have to admit that the breed IS capable of competing and has a versatile athletic ability, just like almost every other breed. [quote]

Any horse who can w-t-c can do a training level dressage test. In fact EVERY horse should do it.

[quote]I think Blarney Stone Acres has proved a point this show weekend, this breed is capable of competing against the big boys, and like it or not, they are here to stay.

Ummm.... yeah... see above. It shouldn't be oh goodie I won against warmbloods or friesian, it should be oh great, I scored well with the test objectives and under some good judges. Who gives a flying cocks tail if it's a warmblood, a cob, a halflinger, friesian or heck... the shwepps cow.

And again, hate to burst your bubble there, but 60's were the low end of the show this year, there were people scoring near eighties on horses that were just as green.

While I'm very happy for your success and the promotion of your stallion, don't make this sport into a them v. us ordeal. And who really gives a rat's pitute what everyone else thinks.

[ECSescilla]

don't make this sport into a them v. us ordeal.

GH owners weren't the one's who made it into a "them v. us" ordeal...that would be absurd. Unfortunately, as soon as this breed was introduced into the US, that attitude reared it's ugly head in many forms. So, now every victory is just that, like it or not. And yes, we will talk about it. No one is forced to read this thread.

Luckily, we have our wonderful horses to spend time with every day...they are so wonderful that they enable us to shake our heads at those attitudes and realize that they will never know that we are in fact the lucky ones. Before I got a GH, I certainly loved and spoiled horses of any breed...and still do...but it is just refreshingly different with this breed. :)

Elizabeth

[Tiligsmom]

Elizabeth, I'm happy for the success. However, I have to agree with other posters about balancing this score with "the bigger picture".

I used to own a Fjord that I dearly loved. He was 14 h and drafty like the Gypsy - not a breed built for dressage. We consistently scored in the high 60's low 70's at training level winning lots of ribbons and attention. It was not difficult because at training level, you're really judged on obedience - walk/trot/canter - something most horses do naturally and he was very mellow.

However, as soon as we started asking for more carrying - 1st/2nd level - the work became exponentially more difficult. As much as I wanted to prove that this beloved breed could do the job, I was met with frustration and disappointment. Yes, there are a few Fjords who've made it to the FEI levels BUT it takes so much more work for horse and rider to do it.

Good luck, but I wouldn't consider this experience in the show ring as an indicator for success in the sport of dressage.

[ECSescilla]

As I said...we'll be back to post more when 2nd level is reached :)

[Blarney Stone Acres]

Perhaps you see no reason that he can not do this and perhaps you believe all horses should start out in the low sixties but what about the other horses that he won over and who did not score that high???
What about the fact that this is new for the breed and he is proving the capabilities of the versitility of this gypsy horse breed. The trainer and barn owner think this little gypsy pony will be at level four in no time. Three diferent judges scored him I guess that all means nothing to you but it means a lot to all the gypsy horse owners who know what the capabilities of what these horses can do.
But I guess you guys are experts and know everything so we should all defer to your opinions. Dressage is about the horses personal best and scoring. People love their horses and are proud of thier achievments Dressage is not a team sport But I do believe as horse lovers team spirit is needed. Regardless, you will hear and see more of this boy in the furure. We are just beginning.

[2foals]

It's always a big milestone when the young ones go to a show and do well, so congrats to what sounds like a nice young horse. I wish him the best in his future dressage career.

But, as others have posted, a score of 60-65% at training level after 10 weeks of training does not indicate talent for dressage. I'm not saying that Sailor doesn't have talent for dressage (I've never even seen him), only suggesting that you might wait to brag on him until he gets a little further along.

Please understand I am in no way trying to diminish Sailor's accomplishment. I personally am very pleased to see non-traditional breeds, including GVs, in the dressage arena--I believe that dressage is a discipline for every horse.

[slc2]

this is how i feel about it. if you're doing the 'us vs them' in response to someone else doing the 'us vs them', it makes no difference - it still shows extremely poor sportsmanship.

dressage is for all DIFFERENT breeds. but they compete as INDIVIDUALS - not as a 'breed'. dressage talent and desire is INDIVIDUAL. there are bred-in-the-purple warmbloods who can't compete in dressage, as well as animals of any breed, who cannot compete in dressage. there are individuals of all horse breeds that can compete to one degree or another in dressage. sometimes horses win largely on obedience and training, sometimes natural endowment is more a factor.

as long as you maintain the 'us vs them' ('they started it') position, and try to rub people's noses in it every time you win, you will never get full respect in the dressage world. and you will not be doing anything positive for your breed. quite the contrary. please do consider what sort of impression you make on the rest of the community.

[pintopiaffe]

Holy Cow folks. TEN WEEKS of training? My usual goal at a first show is to keep all four feet in the arena, and keep the horse between myself and the ground. Breaking 60% is generally a bonus. :lol:

Congratulations. You should be very thrilled with your youngster. What an exciting start. The scores are certainly respectable, and the placings are very encouraging.

[egontoast]

It's the 'gypsy' thing which seems a little silly. Has this horse ever met a gypsy? How is this horse any different from some other light draft or draft cross who does well at dressage.? I think it's the romanticism which makes people guffaw. It's a horse. period. Congratulations for doing well with your horse(whatever the breed or registry).

[Blarney Stone Acres]

This horse was actually bred by an extremely well known gypsy in England. I have had him since he was four years old
The point is not us v them but that these horses can do something besides be a lawn ornament. To have them competing against Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods and Friesans, very talented beautiful horses is quite feat for a gypsy cob who is overcoming cultural negativity and to get past the fanciful conatation of the horse being magical. They can perform and you will be seeing them in various disiplines in the future. To be able to have any horse out there competing is a wonderful thing for any horse owner. To such a small breed in its beginnings even more a thrill.
You can say what you want but those are very decent scores for any horse just beginning.

[Thomas_1]

Precisely what "breed" is it?

I'm presuming that its a cross breed coloured cob or warmblood type and not a breed at all???

[mickeydoodle]

Yes, he was very cute, I watched several of his tests, and he put in a workman-like performance. At that level precision can indeed beat better movers with mistakes. However, as cute as he is, his gaits are not good for dressage, they are too ground-bound. His trot is all leg and quick. His canter will be difficult to collect. I agree that with a good trainer, he can likely do 2nd level and with precision beat a fancier horse on a good day. Beyond that however, the very nature of his gaits and conformation will limit him, no matter how great his temperament and how hard he tries.

[ECSescilla]

None of us GH owners have put down any other breeds...so we didn't bring up any "us v. them" attitude. We merely stated what other breeds were competing, and that he won. Just the facts. I love all the other breeds...but I just have a special place in my heart for the Gypsy Horses.

BTW, it IS MOST CERTAINLY a breed. We say "Gypsy Horse" to be correct b/c some call them Gypsy Cobs/Gypsy Vanners. There are 2 main breed registries, as well. Please don't be assuming until you've done your homework.

All of the negativity in the world can not get a Gypsy Horse parent down...we have too much joy in our lives thanks to this wonderful breed :)

[ECSescilla]

Holy Cow folks. TEN WEEKS of training? My usual goal at a first show is to keep all four feet in the arena, and keep the horse between myself and the ground. Breaking 60% is generally a bonus. :lol:

Congratulations. You should be very thrilled with your youngster. What an exciting start. The scores are certainly respectable, and the placings are very encouraging.

Thanks Pintopiaffe! I agree with you there...a first show...and only under saddle for a short time & dressage training even less...we are very proud.

To the "unsportsmanlike" comment by tempechange...the only unsportsmanlike conduct I see here is the negativity spewing from your fingertips. We are just happy for Sailor and excited to see where he and others can go. If someone can't enter a chat without trying to rain on someone else's parade, then I can just say that I feel sorry for people like that. They must be filled with so much negativity, that they must try to put it off on others every time an opportunity presents itself. I am happy that I am above that. I am happy for others accomplishments, as well...including any you have. There's nothing better than a feeling of pride for someone/something you love.

Elizabeth

[Dazednconfused]

One day, seeing GHs in the dressage arena doing well will be common and not a surprise to so many...then we'll find something else to brag about, because this breed is FULL of surprises. :)


What, that it poops gold butterflies instead of plain old ones? :eek: :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't help myself - shades of the old GV threads...

[ECSescilla]

What, that it poops gold butterflies instead of plain old ones? :eek: :lol:


What the heck are you talking about??? I shovel plain old poop out of our stalls, last I checked. But I couldn't have been surrounded by more wonderful horses while doing it. :winkgrin:

[cheekyhorse]

Without getting into the little arguement going on in here, I'll just offer my congratulations. I think it's great to see a horse of a different breed competing in dressage. Dressage is a sport for ALL horses regardless of what they look like. As long as they can do the job required that's all that matters. We need to support others persuing this sport, there is too much negativity/snobbery in dressage as there is. I wish you well with your Gypsy horse.:)

[ECSescilla]

I admire your character, cheekyhorse. Not sure why the craziness even had to start. I was just showing my support and happiness for Blarney Stone's stallion his first time in the dressage arena. Thank you for your kind words and positive attitude.

Elizabeth

[Sabine]

On the note expressed by Cheekyhorse I would like to add:

I saw Rociero IV last nite at Flintridge in the musical freestyle...the audience went completely silent - the music was extraordinary- this beautiful white Andalusian stallion performed flawlessly (as much as I could see) and the feeling of harmony swept over the audience....there was a huge standing applause at the end- and a great sense of satisfaction in the audience- having come for a rewarding performance...( of course Lombardi and Steffen won rightfully so- with a great performance as well) but seeing this great little horse to so well- made me- as an amateur think: this is the beauty that I seek in dressage- independent of breed- just harmony and a willing and rewarding performance!

Good Luck to the Gypsy Stallion- and please post some picture- I really would like to see!!

[ECSescilla]

On the note expressed by Cheekyhorse I would like to add:

I saw Rociero IV last nite at Flintridge in the musical freestyle...the audience went completely silent - the music was extraordinary- this beautiful white Andalusian stallion performed flawlessly (as much as I could see) and the feeling of harmony swept over the audience....there was a huge standing applause at the end- and a great sense of satisfaction in the audience- having come for a rewarding performance...( of course Lombardi and Steffen won rightfully so- with a great performance as well) but seeing this great little horse to so well- made me- as an amateur think: this is the beauty that I seek in dressage- independent of breed- just harmony and a willing and rewarding performance!

Good Luck to the Gypsy Stallion- and please post some picture- I really would like to see!!

I got goosebumps just reading that...WOW!!! Wonderful!!! I hope there are some photos...if so, I'm sure Blarney Stone will post them as soon as they can. Even better...I hope they put a video on You Tube!

[Swan Hill]

Congratulations on your stallions performance.

The trainer and barn owner think this little gypsy pony will be at level four in no time.

Do you mean Training Level Test Four or Fourth Level? It could reasonably be assumed that your horse could show at T-4 pretty quickly, but there is a huge difference between T-4 and Fourth Level.

Fourth level is hard and takes years of training to get there if your horse has the movement, talent, brains, and trainer to make it there.

[Thomas_1]

I asked earlier, but never got an answer.....

What breeding is this "gypsy horse"? Is it a coloured warmblood type or cob type or an actual breed??

[Equibrit]

Americans regard the multi coloured mutt gypsy type cob horses, that you see tethered by the side of the road in the UK, as a "breed".

[tempichange]

To the "unsportsmanlike" comment by tempechange...the only unsportsmanlike conduct I see here is the negativity spewing from your fingertips.

If you're going to drag me through the mud, at least spell my sn right;)

It's hardly unsportsmanlike if it's true, actually the situation is hardly unsportsmanlike period, what is unsportsmanlike is the attitude you've carried throughout this thread. Dressage is an individual sport which you compete against an ideal and it's also a sport that doesn't tolerate the us versus them attitude.

Any horse should be able to do training level test one after about three months of professional training and score in the 60s. If not, then you've wasted time and dollars.

What is unsportsmanslike, is to come onto a public board and make the arguement of I beat the warmbloods, friesians and other breeds at training level is a huge accomplishment. While it may be a huge accomplishment to you, in reality it's a small step in line with many huge steps. It's very easy to say that this horse is upper level material, heck I can say my pony is FEI international quality, its quite another thing to do it, train it and ride it.

Sixties confirm that the horse is on the right path, congrats on that (as I have said before), however, any horse should be able to do w/t/c, two twenty meter circles, be balanced, forward and on the bit after ten weeks of consistant training. And therein lies my point. Any horse can do this sport, any horse can do this sport well at this basic of a level with good training and a competent, accurant rider.

I have nothing against the breed, or the trainer (who is actually a good aquantance while I was training with Mrs. Hoffman), I have the problem with the attitude of the owner, who should be happy that she met the ideals of the test, and not that she beat out some other horse.

[Thomas_1]

Americans regard the multi coloured mutt gypsy type cob horses, that you see tethered by the side of the road in the UK, as a "breed". So this one is a coloured cob? Otherwise known as a Bitsa?

I asked out of genuine interest because in the UK there's plenty of Romany coloured horses that are VERY well bred dutch warmblood and welsh D cross DWB.

[Equibrit]

It would indeed be a Bitsa. (Anything of breeding age that you find over somebody else's fence, and can put your mare in with) True to their entrepreneurial spirit, the "breeders" of such cobs have seen an opportunity to extract $$$$s from some poor unsuspecting septics and have exploited it. More or less what you would expect - right? Wrap up these majikal bitsas in gypsy legend and there you have it - the dollars flow.

[Thomas_1]

I feel I must say that we have some very nice coloured cobs that are bitsas in the UK. And personally speaking there's a lot I'd prefer over a lot of pure breeds I've seen posted.

There's also a lot of Bitsas that I'd pay more money for compared to some grotty poor pure bred that isn't even true to its breed standard.

But then we seem more obsessed with 'type' than pretending to have a breed.

[ddashaq]

Americans regard the multi coloured mutt gypsy type cob horses, that you see tethered by the side of the road in the UK, as a "breed".


Not ALL Americans!:) I spent a lot of time in the UK and laughed my a$$ off when I saw people advertising coloured cobs over here for $10-30K. They are nice horses- I rode A LOT of them- but cetainly are not about to take over the GP dressage arena. What I enjoyed most was that they were all good, consistent, honest jumpers. However, that had to do with the excellent training they received more than their "breed".

Congrats to the people who own the GV/GH this thread is about. Regardless of his breed, it is wonderful that he did well at his first show.

[Bundy]

And the horses that the GH "beat" as in finished ahead of were - a quarter horse, 2 TBs and a Paint. The Friesien in the 1st class finished ahead of this horse as did a WB in the other class.

I think however we are all banging our head against a wall. I had a friend who showed Fjords - not a typical "dressage" horse - even barely broke under saddle and hardly stearing - they were in the mid to upper 60s right away. It isn't hard to do.

What this person doesn't get (or doesn't have enough experience to understand) is that scoring low 60s at Trg level (regardless of the amount of training on the horse) is not something most of us would go online and brag about or think was ANY indicator of the horse being able to become a mid to upper level dressage horse. We are just wasting time trying to education online.

[Thomas_1]

What this person doesn't get (or doesn't have enough experience to understand) is that scoring low 60s at Trg level (regardless of the amount of training on the horse) is not something most of us would go online and brag about or think was ANY indicator of the horse being able to become a mid to upper level dressage horse. We are just wasting time trying to education online. Well I'll give you that but its far from the silliest thing folks brag about.

Heck read the endurance threads... There they go for a 3 hour ride out and call it endurance and post about how fantastic they did! :eek:

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD593/200122842-001.jpg

[TheOtherHorse]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD593/200122842-001.jpg

Great pic! CHOO-CHOOOO! All on board!

[Equibrit]

Another imaginary "breed" http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Ideas/Album/TroopingTheColour/2006DrumHorse.jpg
Bitsas that hang around in good company!

Actually if you want to be correct warmbloods are "sport bitsas"; prized for their athletic ability.
These coloured cobs are "draught bitsas"; prized for their strength and temperament.

Neither or none of them are breeds, however the warmbloods are registered and selectively bred.

[Donella]

Hmm,
So how are the horses not a breed? A horse can be bred pure for 20 generations and yet not have papers or belong to a registry. I am not saying they are necisarrily a breed, but they are VERY identifiable and they stand out from other breeds or crossbreds. I can pick a gypsy cob/vanner out ANYWHERE...I dunno, I know the gypsy vanner people have a bad rep on here because of a certain someone..however, I am not sure you can say they are not a breed of horse..can you?? I may be wrong, but my good friend, who is into lipizzans, has told me that there is no registry for them where they originated..ie spanish riding school horses ect ...there are american registries ect, but still..they are purebred lips and nobody says "oh..they aren't a breed because they are not papered". Lots of breeds were breeds before they were officially papapered...right?? I dunno..I could be wrong, but they just look like a distinct breed of horse to me.

[Equibrit]

Hmm,
A horse can be bred pure for 20 generations


Therein lies the problem. If only it were so!

[Thomas_1]

Lipezanners are a breed and they are indeed registered and branded in Europe.

I happen to like coloured cobs. But they're not a breed. For a kick off, to produce them, they're still using a variety of different breeds and mixed bree.

[Equibrit]

http://www.lipica.org/?vie=cnt&str=54_eng
http://www.ukom.gov.si/eng/slovenia/audio-visual/slides/lipica.html
http://www.lipizzanerwelt.at/start.php

If this is not a breed, then there are no breeds.

[Donella]

Well, like I said..I could be wrong. I guess my friend is confused or I misunderstood her. Anyways..I just think it's a bit strange how they look SO similiar in type to each other, and so different from other horses and yet are not a breed. I am not comparing the two, but I have hanoverians and I have heard SO many times.."OH they aren't a breed..they are a type". Yeah whatever, not all breeds have closed studbooks, but they are still breeds. Warmblood is the TYPE, Hanoverian is the breed.
I guess I am wondering..what IS a breed? Is it a type that is unique that has it's own registry? Does it have to be a closed studbook?? What is it exactly?? Just seems like every time someone mentions the words "gypsy vanner" an unusual tone of negativity settles over the thread.

[scottishgirl]

Precisely what "breed" is it?

I'm presuming that its a cross breed coloured cob or warmblood type and not a breed at all???

Lol, I have tried to make this point a million times and it doesnt seem to get through.

I have a lot of love for Cobs and X's thereof, but they are not a breed called Gypsy Vanners!

Unless of course saying something is so makes it so. Which often it can!

ETA Im not saying they shouldnt/couldnt do dressage though..

[silvia]

Congratulations to the owner and trainer and of course to the lovely young lad on such a nice achievement for a young horse.

Dressage is not about breed, to go out there on all 'off' breeds and have a go is the name of the game! Who cares what score, to win a first, second, first is a really nice achievement and the people involved should enjoy it!

And remember, with some the only kind of success they experience is when they try to take a chunk out of you!

[Westlaw]

Congratulations to the horse and rider for a first great show. The owner/breeder/rider/trainer have every right to feel proud that their horse put in a good showing in this competition. And we all deserve a little brag now and again. I know I like to. Every time anyone puts on their show coat and marches up center line, they deserve some credit.

But I think what people might take issue with is a claim that this accomplishment somehow proves that the breed is going to be successful. One horse. One show. Training level. People are selling these foals for $50,000. If people want to spend it because they simply like these horses, that's great.

It's a bit of a stretch, though, to say that one horse's performance at one show proves the naysayers wrong about the slickly advertised extraordinarily expensive horses that, apart from this one show, have no competition record. Even if this particular horse goes grand prix (pretty hard to guess at this point), that could still just be him-- everyone knows a non-traditional breed horse who has gone far.

If it turns out that a whole generation of these undeniably cute horses has success at the upper levels, that will be an interesting development. But that's not where we are.

And if the lack of enthusiasm seems like breed bias, it's not-- it's just that no one would claim that because their TB/QH/App/Arab or whatever beat out warmbloods in USDF competition, that "proves" anything. If anything, people love to hear about the uncommon stories-- like Teddy the pony in the eventing world, or Lendon Gray's Seldom Seen (pony), or the blind appaloosa who went grand prix (what was his name?). People root for an underdog. I don't even like riding warmbloods, am thrilled to have a TB, and have a not-too-secret desire to own a Haflinger so I can braid daisies into its mane. If one of these colored cob horses set the world on fire I'd be cheering loudest-- just like I do for 14.2hh Theodore O'Connor, a very well-bred sportpony who does NOT prove that your child's pony can go double-clear at Rolex.

These horses are not the underdogs and not underappreciated. If the breeders haven't felt respect from people who do dressage, it's because the horses haven't earned it yet. They are sold for huge sums of money and the websites I've found on them have pages of fairy tales about how noble, smart, kind, and trainable they are, with ZERO information about anything they can do.

Congratulations to all involved but don't feel snubbed. Your horses are being judged by the same standards as all others-- you ought to regard them that way too.

[silvia]

Remind me not to post any achievement I make on this forum. Seems there are plenty of crows on the sidelines waiting for fresh meat to pick apart.

[tempichange]

Remind me not to post any achievement I make on this forum. Seems there are plenty of crows on the sidelines waiting for fresh meat to pick apart.

If you come across as the OP is, then dinner is served.

[Sabine]

Congratulations to the horse and rider for a first great show. The owner/breeder/rider/trainer have every right to feel proud that their horse put in a good showing in this competition. And we all deserve a little brag now and again. I know I like to. Every time anyone puts on their show coat and marches up center line, they deserve some credit.

But I think what people might take issue with is a claim that this accomplishment somehow proves that the breed is going to be successful. One horse. One show. Training level. People are selling these foals for $50,000. If people want to spend it because they simply like these horses, that's great.

It's a bit of a stretch, though, to say that one horse's performance at one show proves the naysayers wrong about the slickly advertised extraordinarily expensive horses that, apart from this one show, have no competition record. Even if this particular horse goes grand prix (pretty hard to guess at this point), that could still just be him-- everyone knows a non-traditional breed horse who has gone far.

If it turns out that a whole generation of these undeniably cute horses has success at the upper levels, that will be an interesting development. But that's not where we are.

And if the lack of enthusiasm seems like breed bias, it's not-- it's just that no one would claim that because their TB/QH/App/Arab or whatever beat out warmbloods in USDF competition, that "proves" anything. If anything, people love to hear about the uncommon stories-- like Teddy the pony in the eventing world, or Lendon Gray's Seldom Seen (pony), or the blind appaloosa who went grand prix (what was his name?). People root for an underdog. I don't even like riding warmbloods, am thrilled to have a TB, and have a not-too-secret desire to own a Haflinger so I can braid daisies into its mane. If one of these colored cob horses set the world on fire I'd be cheering loudest-- just like I do for 14.2hh Theodore O'Connor, a very well-bred sportpony who does NOT prove that your child's pony can go double-clear at Rolex.

These horses are not the underdogs and not underappreciated. If the breeders haven't felt respect from people who do dressage, it's because the horses haven't earned it yet. They are sold for huge sums of money and the websites I've found on them have pages of fairy tales about how noble, smart, kind, and trainable they are, with ZERO information about anything they can do.

Congratulations to all involved but don't feel snubbed. Your horses are being judged by the same standards as all others-- you ought to regard them that way too.

Very outstanding post- Westlaw-....must pay more attention to your comments...;)
and I do agree whole heartedly- which in no way diminishes the accomplishment of Sailor- hope there are many more Blue's in his future!!!

[Nootka]

What, that it poops gold butterflies instead of plain old ones? :eek: :lol:

Ok your horrible.. it is not butterflies but hecking majickal wizards that are imported with them. Get it right or don't speak:lol:

This is from post in Off Course (do a search I am sure you can find it)


OP congrats!!! It is great that you did well with such little training. Sounds like you boy has a great work ethic

[SillyHorse]

I hope the OP reads westlaw's post and takes it to heart. It sums the matter up beautifully.

[slc2]

WHY does every breed HAVE to be a success in dressage? because dressage is currently popular, that's why, with lots of new riders. It has nothing to do with the purpose or build or talents of the breed.

This breed was developed to be a cute family companion, and to pull a small wagon - they aren't particularly fast, or high jumpers. They are spotted, and have feathers, and a heavy-ish build. They are bred to be appealing in appearance, and for light draft.

In any rational period of history, they would be being used just exactly for what they were intended, as a family companion and pulling a cart.

This breed would be absolutely perfect for pleasure driving. It often has a magnanimous, accepting and tolerant nature, and often would make a pleasant driving companion.

I have a friend who was dying to get one - to pull - a traditional gypsy wagon! She was planning on entering the vehicle in parades, driving competitions, and visiting different fairs and outdoor concerts.

But she could not, because they were so damned expensive. I think that's the main thing that offends most people.

In fact, a breeder I heard of a gal down south BREEDS feathered, pinto, draft crosses with exactly the same magnanimous temperament and stylish way of moving - and trained 3 year olds, broke to drive, shown 2-3 times and dead safe for even a beginner to ride, are about 1500 dollars!

NOT Fifty thousand dollars - and by the way, fifty thousand dollars is for a green, unhandled, unbroke gypsy horse (yes there are many different names for them, different sizes, etc).

It's NOT for a trained, shown, traffic safe bombproof well trained animal. It is ALSO the price the top class hannoverian youngster who placed sixth in the german national young horse championships and is by don schufro and a star mare, is for sale for! This is a horse that's likely to go and finish in the top ten at the olympics. you can't even suggest that for the 50,000 dollar gypsy horse.

That is plenty of proof that these horses are incredibly overpriced.

There is NO BREED for which a non olympic contender, unbroke youngster sells for fifty bills! that's all there is to it! THIS IS IT! The gypsy horse!

WHY? for the same reason you were mobbed at the show. BECAUSE IT IS CUTE.

What is it with people, I mean, other than greed? Why does every breeder feel they have to distort and twist their breed around and market them as dressage horses?

This breed has a purpose, an appeal and an attractiveness WITHOUT being a champion dressage horse. Why not just respect it for what it is and not try to make it over?

A FAMILY HORSE is good at a variety of things. A little pleasure driving, maybe a little dressage, so people can have FUN. They don't WANT a world class horse. They want an easy going, sturdy, hardy animal that can go without being worked for a month or a winter, and come out and be pleasant for them, that is forgiving of mistakes and a pleasure to be around.

There are so many breeds that can do this. Each person has their favorite version of this type of horse. WHY can't we just leave it at that?

[caffeinated]

Well... first I'd like to say congratulations on a good show. Regardless of breed, etc, I know that feeling of excitement and optimism, so I can't pooh-pooh it too much.

On the other hand, this thread has shades of the Russian Roulette++++++ debacle on H/J.

Basically, in a nutshell, the issue was an "unconventional" breed showing and "beating warmbloods" Which was great, but it really did a dis-service to the breed (Arabs, in that case) by implying that it was a HUGE accomplishment for an Arab to beat warmbloods in 3'-3'3" jumpers. While it was cool for an Arab to beat those horses, the amount of pride made it seem like it would be unusual for that breed to compete any higher or bigger.

Claiming superiority based on success at a low level does the same thing here, I think. It suggests that it's special, unusual, and amazing for an individual of this breed to succeed. It's interesting to me that an attempt to make the breed look better only makes it seem lesser. Better to succeed quietly- when many of these horses are competing successfully, and showing promise at the higher levels, the success will speak for itself.

I think in general people here are very supportive of each other- if I went and got a score of 10 my first time out, I'm pretty sure folks would give me a slap on the back and encouragement. If I did well, and bragged about my success, even at the lowest levels, I know I would get congratulations. But then, if I did that, it would be about my personal success, not about beating more "typical" breeds or about how my cheap PMU horse would "show everyone" that he's so much better than the rest. ;)

[Auventera Two]

And remember, with some the only kind of success they experience is when they try to take a chunk out of you!

Great post silvia.

I really love hearing of the achievements and accomplishments of others, especially with young horses. I have a young horse too, and I get excited reading the successes of others with their babies. Bringing a baby up to adulthood is a real challege, but is so rewarding! :)

[Auventera Two]

Well I'll give you that but its far from the silliest thing folks brag about.

Heck read the endurance threads... There they go for a 3 hour ride out and call it endurance and post about how fantastic they did! :eek:

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD593/200122842-001.jpg


Just for clarification - endurance isn't ridden in hours. It's ridden in miles. One person could cover 35 miles in 3 hours, and another person might cover 5 miles in 3 hours.

[Pony Fixer]

I love you Westlaw.

How eloquently put.

And I have no problems with the GV horses--I own a home made draft cross, and I think he's been proof that horses can be successful despite their physical limitations with good training. We're scoring low 60s (oh, and some high 50s when I forget how to ride half way through the test, and mid 60s when my trainer shows) at 2nd level. But it will always be harder for him than the WBs at the barn who "came out of the box" round and through with beautiful necks and shoulders. And I'm OK with that.

Ride what you got, love what you ride.

[rebecca yount]

Okay, did a google search for Blarney Stone Acres and the first hit was a website thus:

http://www.blarneystoneacres.com/

And by the bottom left of the page is the following (I copied and pasted this from the website):

For Gypsy horses can educate through first-hand, subjective, personal experiences, unlike human tutors, teachers, and professors can ever do. Gypsy horses can build character, not merely urge one to improve on it. Gypsy horses forge the mind, the character, the emotions and inner lives of humans. People can talk to one another about all these things and remain distanced and lonesome. In partnership with a Gypsy horse, one is seldom lacking for thought, emotion and inspiration. One is always attended by a great companion.
— Charles de Kunffy

I am wondering where this quote is from? Is it from one of his books? It sounds like it might be from Ethics and Passions, but I can't find it in there. Anyone know?

[Coreene]

As I said in Off Course, the most entertaining thread ever would be about a shamrock-farting Majical Gypsy Vanner, that did all the Parelli BS games, with an owner swathed in a pimped out princess costume battling an Arab jumper, to see who leaps the leaking houseboat best. With at least one of the parties involved being caught in flagrante delicto pre-sammicho.

As for the quote, Rebecca, the GV part was added. Or so says Google.

[egontoast]

For Gypsy horses can educate through first-hand, subjective, personal experiences, unlike human tutors, teachers, and professors can ever do. Gypsy horses can build character, not merely urge one to improve on it. Gypsy horses forge the mind, the character, the emotions and inner lives of humans. People can talk to one another about all these things and remain distanced and lonesome. In partnership with a Gypsy horse, one is seldom lacking for thought, emotion and inspiration. One is always attended by a great companion.
— Charles de Kunffy



I am finding it hard to believe that de Kunffy said this. If he did say this PLEASE NOTE:about ANY HORSE TYPE OR BREED, then perhaps he has gone off the deep end. This is where the magical butterflies and fairies come in.

[rebecca yount]

OF COURSE I KNOW CHARLES DID NOT SAY THAT!!!! DUH!!!!

I was wondering which book it really came from and then had the word "gypsy" inserted. I am sure he just said "horses". But what book?

I wonder how he would feel to see that his work had been not only plagiarized (okay spelling police did I spell it right?), but distorted as well.

In my book, that's just not okay to do!!

[egontoast]

Guess what, RY, obviously I wasn't addressing you with my comments. I think I was on side with you in fact. Why so touchy ?:confused:

""DUH"" yourself.

I just went looking for his email to send him the quote but there is no email link on his website that I could find.

[Equibrit]

The original which can be found on the internet but with no reference!

For horses can educate through first hand, subjective, personal experiences unlike human tutors, teachers or professors can ever do. Horses can build character, not merely urge one to improve upon it. Horses forge the mind, the character, the emotions and the inner lives of humans. People can talk to one another about all these things and remain distanced and lonesome. In partnership with a horse, one is seldom lacking for thought, emotion and inspiration for one is always attended by a great companion.
Charles de Kunffy

[Kathy Johnson]

What is the etymology of the word "Blarney?"

[Equibrit]

It refers to the "gift of the gab" and is bestowed upon those who kiss the Blarney Stone. This is most definitely "BLARNEY", which is also commonly applied to fat, coloured, hairy cobs!
http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/ireland/blarney_stone.html

[egontoast]

hehe I had the same thought, KJ. Isn't "Blarney" the Irish equivalent of " Bullshit"?

[SillyHorse]

What is the etymology of the word "Blarney?" Hee! :lol:

[rebecca yount]

Egon, just goes to show how the typed word on the Internet can't come across as intended!! I wasn't annoyed with you, and I didn't mean the "duh" to suggest that I was. And I am not annoyed now, either. I am in a rather good mood, as a matter of fact, having exposed misuse of Charles' written word. It's kind of like when my daughter and husband were joking around with me (who, me--controlling? Bossy?) about my (ahem) "bossiness". We had some fabulous books for Samra called the "Little Miss" books. Like "Little Miss Naughty" and "Little Miss Neat" and "Little Miss Helpful" and so forth. Anyway--how sexist is that? There were also "Little Mister" books, presumably for boys. But I digress. From my digression from the original Charles topic. Anyway. One of the books is called "Little Miss Bossy". So one night they were goofing around and were reading the book out loud, and everywhere it said "Little Miss Bossy" did this or "Little Miss Bossy" said that, they would substitute "Rebecca Yount" and we were all in hysterics for a long time.

It seems to me that is kind of like what the Gypsy Vanner people have done to poor Charles' beautiful prose. In which I am just CERTAIN he only wrote "horse" in the original version.

Where on the internet did anyone find it, anyway--on his website? I would have sworn it came right out of Ethics and Passions but I don't think it's in there.

And. I bet Mike Matson googles Charles de Kunffy every once in a while and so when he finds this thread boy are those Gypsy Vanner people in hot water!! Charles is going to be PISSED!!

Egon I am not touchy. In fact I am from the Midwest and I hate to be touched anyway, except by a very few select people. We Midwesterners also have a certain personal boundary space where you can't invade. It's sometimes different from that of others.

So no hard feelings--I think you just might have misinterpreted my "duh". Actually here in DC it is "duh-UH!"

[egontoast]

OK, oops, RY, I guess I missed that one.;)

I hope someone tells Mr. de K about this bizarre and insulting misquote.

[rebecca yount]

Aha! I knew it. It IS in Ethics and Passions--The Ethics and Passions of Dressage, Charles de Kunffy, 1993:

Page 126 (last page, this is the last passage in the entire book) and here is the actual quote in its entirety:

"For horses can educate through first hand, subjective, personal experiences, unlike human tutors, teachers, and professors can ever do. Horses can build character, not merely urge one to improve on it. Horses forge the mind, the character, the emotions, and inner lives of humans. People can talk to one another about all these things and remain distanced and lonesome. In the partnership with a horse, one is seldom lacking for thought, emotion, and inspiration. One is always attended by a great companion."

It does appear elsewhere, in part, on other websites, etc.

Slight misquote here: http://www.chironsway.com/equine.html

And correct here: http://www.myspace.com/kimberskunk (turn your sound down)

Correct here: http://www.circlerranch.com/jeniadd.html

Correct here: http://northernhorse.com/caballosdelrio/salebarn.asp

Okay, this is wierd: http://www.janesanders.com/gendersmart/
She gets the quote right but keeps juxtaposing "horses" and "men" in her writing. Odd...

Okay there are too many places to find them all. Most seem to quote it correctly. Only the horse vanner people have it afu.

[Mao]

I was wondering if anyone had pictures of GV from the show?

I stopped by KHP on Saturday and watched the KDA show for about an hour. There was this absolutely adorable palomino-ish, Lusitano-ish looking horse with itty-bitty rider aboard. I only saw them from a distance - but that horse had all the mane & tail going on. OMG - they were SO darling!

Was this the horse in question? Because it was striking in it's difference.

Anyway, I once took 1st place at a Training Level 2 at a schooling show on my $800 Nokota. My score was low to mid-60's, as I recall. Judge said my little Nokota (aka mustang) had best developed canter of most of competitors - but, because of limitations in his gaits - I should not aspire to Grand Prix. Duh, really? LOL!

We got the blue ribbon in that class - winning over an Iron Springs-bred warmblood. Yes, my bad, but that was SO sweet. I STILL have that ribbon - LOL!

My $800 Nokota has NOT continued on to Grand Prix - no surprise. But he is on-loan to the Kentucky Horse Park - representing the Nokota breed at their Breeds Barn for 2007 season. The KHP riders who exhibit him in Parade of Breeds love him. I think it's the well-developed canter! The moral of the story being - never under-estimate a solid Training Level horse of unusual breed.

Congratulations to OP.

Nokota - Blue Moon Rising at KHP...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-554296983162529422&q=Kentucky+Horse+Park&hl=en

[Sonesta]

You see, it things like misquoting Charles de Kunffy in order to make your "breed" seem more important that gives the Gypsy folks a bad name. If you Gypsy horse folks would just calm down and get real you wouldn't be ridiculed so much.

I mean, your ponies ARE cute. Let them be what they actually ARE and stop trying to create a myth and make them "majikal" and people will stop poking fun at you.

[lindac]

I was wondering if anyone had pictures of GV from the show?

I stopped by KHP on Saturday and watched the KDA show for about an hour. There was this absolutely adorable palomino-ish, Lusitano-ish looking horse with itty-bitty rider aboard. I only saw them from a distance - but that horse had all the mane & tail going on. OMG - they were SO darling!


There was a Haflinger that was there at the show if it had a blond mane and tail. There was also a very small child riding the most Thelwell looking pony I have ever seen. It was a very unusual color of brownish-gray and had a dark mane and tail. VERY cute!

I volunteered all day Saturday and saw the GV pony go. He was very cute. I watched him go back towards the barn, but there were no mobs gathering that day.

[SonatyOne]

After reading this whole thread through, I think what the OP was trying to say was that she was proud of the fact that a Gypsy was out doing something other than what most people seem to think they are capable of doing. He will probalbly not go to Grand Prix level, but I bet his owner and trainer will have fun in seeing just what he is capable of.

She simply was trying to show an accomplishment and as usual, any thread about a Gypsy has degenerated into a trainwreck about Majikal fairy farting, wizard having, shamrock pooping horses.:confused: Why? Not all Gypsy owners and breeders are as crazy as the one who posted in Off Course in that infamous thread. Most of us are just like any other horse owners and are proud when our horses succeed. It seems because of a few bad apples and a few raisins in the stuffing, all Gypsy horse people will now be lumped in the same catagory. And yes, before I get flamed, I did see the part about beating out warmbloods and friesians, but I still think she was just very excited about Sailor and his accomplishment.

[tempichange]

After reading this whole thread through, I think what the OP was trying to say was that she was proud of the fact that a Gypsy was out doing something other than what most people seem to think they are capable of doing. He will probalbly not go to Grand Prix level, but I bet his owner and trainer will have fun in seeing just what he is capable of.

Training level really doesn't show the capabilities or potential of a horse though. It just shows that the horse is obediant, forward, supple and adjustably on the bit. If she scored 70s-80s then I'd be quiet and wondering why isn't this horse doing first level. But she scored a little bit below par.

The fact that she was making a bigger deal about ribbon color and beating out "blue bloods" just shows her lack of knowledge about the sport.

[Auventera Two]

You see, it things like misquoting Charles de Kunffy in order to make your "breed" seem more important that gives the Gypsy folks a bad name. If you Gypsy horse folks would just calm down and get real you wouldn't be ridiculed so much.

I mean, your ponies ARE cute. Let them be what they actually ARE and stop trying to create a myth and make them "majikal" and people will stop poking fun at you.

This is an honest question, and observation. Why is it such a sin that the owners/breeders reference the Gypsy Vanner's heritage as a Gypsy horse? Of course we all know what Gypsys are, so of COURSE they're bound to reference some type of mythical drama in reference to the horses.

Don't we Arab people do this to some degree in referencing the desert roots of our horses? We talk about their undying love and dedication for the humans that came from centuries of living in the tent with the family. We talk about their relentless endurance capabilities from centuries of selective breeding for horses that could endure the harsh and brutal deserts. I don't think any horse in the world carries more history and drama than the Arabian! The Black Stallion. The desert horses with fire in their eyes and angels wings. The horses who saved their owners by carrying them tirelessly across hundreds of miles of barren lands in search of an oasis. And so forth..... You read these quips on Arab breeders websites, and read the stories of the history of the breed. Even on the AHA website, you can find stories of fire and passion surrounding these horses.

The Lipizzaners have some of this drama sewn into their breed as well. And the Lusitanos with bullfighting. I met a Lusitano owner and trainer at the horse fair a few years ago and she told me how she believes the Lusitano to be the only horse worthy to carry a man on its back because its the only horse who would go toe to toe with an angry bull and see it through to the death. So I think that a lot of breeds have this same kind of drama and fairytale stories connected to them.

I think the roots of the Gypsy horse is a lot of the same stuff. Stories passed down from Gypsy families about the roots and heritage of their horses. But the difference is that here in the U.S. we are accustomed to hearing the Arabian stories, and Lipizzaners, and Thoroughbreds, and so forth. The stories behind the Gypsy horse are new to us, so it's fun to pounce on it and make fun and pick it apart. But really, the same thing happens with our breeds all the time.

[Sonesta]

I don't think anybody disputes that some of them were owned or "bred" [um, across the fence?] by Gypsies. The problem is all the majikal twaddle and people (like the OP!) who put "quotes" on their website that they have doctored to misquote in order to enhance the image.

It just really does appear that these horses attract the nutters out there. And that is sad, because they are cute horses who will likely remain a joke because of the nutters involved with them.

Oh, and before you jump on me, there ARE some normal sane people who have these horses. I know two, in fact. But they are not the ones out there giving their "breed" a bad name.

[Sonesta]

And because I just can't resist, I'm going to offer the following "quotes" and "book titles" for your consideration.

"There is something about the outside of a Morgan ithat is s good for the inside of a man." -- Winston Churchill

My Knabstruppers, My Teachers by Alois Podhajsky

No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle on a Halflinger. ~Winston Churchill

Quarter Horses and children, I often think, have a lot of the good sense there is in the world. ~Josephine Demott Robinson

The wind of heaven is that which blows between a Paint horse's ears. ~Arabian Proverb

Ah, Morabs, Morabs, what steeds! Has the whirlwind a home in your manes? Is there a sensitive ear, alert as a flame, in your every fiber? Hearing the familiar song from above, all in one accord you strain your bronze chests and, hooves barely touching the ground, turn into straight lines cleaving the air, and all inspired by God it rushes on! ~Nikolai V. Gogol, Dead Souls, 1842, translated from Russian (above is combination of translations by Bernard Guildert Guerney, Richard Peaver, and Larisa Voloklonsky)

There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his Friesian horse. ~Robert Smith Surtees, "Chapter XXX: Bolting the Badger," Mr. Sponge's Sporting Tour, 1853

A lovely Andalusian horse is always an experience.... It is an emotional experience of the kind that is spoiled by words. ~Beryl Markham

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no palomino horses. ~R.B. Cunninghame Graham, letter to Theodore Roosevelt, 1917

He's of the colour of the nutmeg. And of the heat of the ginger.... he is pure air and fire; and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him, but only in patient stillness while his rider mounts him; he is indeed a Saddlebred horse, and all other jades you may call beasts. ~William Shakespeare, Henry V

You guys care to add others? Oh, and feel free to substitute the breed of your choice in place of mine. And DO put the quote on your website to promote your breed and try to make others more ignorant believe this is the actual quote!

[CAJumper]

As for the quote, Rebecca, the GV part was added. Or so says Google.

Oh dear...I have been trying to hold my tongue on this topic, but this (mis-quoting someone to further your own interests) is just *so wrong*. :no:

Blarney, indeed!

[ise@ssl]

I don't really know much about these horses - they are pretty flashy and seem to be the next thing after the alpaca "lifestyle". The only thing I know about them is from a friends who have been born/raised in Ireland and are horsepeople for generations in their families. They just can't understand why anyone would pay the prices they are paying for these horses. They actually laugh and scratch their heads about it. Call them "cart horses". So I guess it's a US phenomenon that they have high prices and stud fees.

[mp]

Don't we Arab people do this to some degree in referencing the desert roots of our horses? We talk about their undying love and dedication for the humans that came from centuries of living in the tent with the family. We talk about their relentless endurance capabilities from centuries of selective breeding for horses that could endure the harsh and brutal deserts.

Who's 'we,' Khemosabi?

[caffeinated]

After reading this whole thread through, I think what the OP was trying to say was that she was proud of the fact that a Gypsy was out doing something other than what most people seem to think they are capable of doing.

I'm pretty sure that everyone on here, even those who aren't a big fan of the Gypsy horse phenomenon, DID think they were capable of going out and doing a training level test with reasonably good scores.

:cool:

[slc2]

i keep glancing at this thread. it always says it has a 'Last Page', and i keep thinking, God, if that were only true.

[Ghazzu]

A couple of weeks ago I got into a discussion with an Egyptian Arab breeder who told me that "REAL" Arabians are desert descendents of pure Egyptian blood, and that the Russians and Polish horses were mixed with warmbloods and thoroughbreds and other "local blood."

Then again, as a Bedouin breeder once said to me, "Egypt is *not* Arabia."

[Ghazzu]

But this has not yet happened to a great degree, and already there are horses out there turning heads...like it or not, people are surprised to see Gypsy Horses in disciplines that their body types would generally not be well-suited. But they are doing it. More than I can mention...they are exceling in dressage, hunter/jumper, English, Western, driving (of course)...you name it...except for racing...lol, you will see a Gypsy Horse of the current "draft" body type doing it and doing it well, and with MUCH less training under their belts than most at the same stage.


I must have missed it, but could you point me to where these Gypsy horses are excelling in h/j (and Western, for that matter)?

I'm not saying that someone who first and foremost wants one of these feathered things can't jump it, but I find my credulity a wee bit strained when told they're "excelling in hunter/jumper".

Mind you, I have an Arab I show in hunter and dressage. If I seriously wanted to be competitive at the hunter thing though, I'd a) get a TB (can't do WB's, just can't) and b) get my sorry carcass to a good h/j trainer.

[mickeydoodle]

I am amused that this thread has gone on so long. The little gypsy guy was cute at the show, but he was in classes with TB's, ponys and QH's, not the pro classes with fancy WBs. That is neither here nor there however, I would expect him and any horse to be able to go out and put in a training level test that was obedient, reasonably round and reasonably forward which is what his was. He does/did however move like a hairy little pony, with a quick, flat, ground bound trot. Reminded me of a King Charles Spaniel with all the feathers. The gaits will not make him an upper level dressage horse.

[mp]

Mind you, I have an Arab I show in hunter and dressage. If I seriously wanted to be competitive at the hunter thing though, I'd a) get a TB (can't do WB's, just can't) and b) get my sorry carcass to a good h/j trainer.

But you'd still hum snippets from "The Desert Song" as you ride and regale all within earshot of your horse's noble ancestry, wouldn't you? That's what Arabian owners do, you know ... ;)

[Jealoushe]

I was wondering if anyone had pictures of GV from the show?

[/url]

I would love to see some too.

[Westlaw]

"A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse, of course,
Unless, of course, the horse, of course,
Is the famous Oldenburg!"

"If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride Belgians."

"I guess I must be dumb, she had a pocket full of horses-- Trakehners, some of them used."

"Don't look a gift Shetland in the mouth."

[fargaloo]

and by the way, fifty thousand dollars is for a green, unhandled, unbroke gypsy horse

Does that mean that the horse in my profile pic is worth more than $50,000?? Woohoo!! I've always just called her a CCC (Canadian Carthorse of Colour), but perhaps in homage to her Canuck roots I'll start calling her a "Gypsy Vanier". (Dang, wish I'd filled that in on my entry form for our upcoming HT...) ;)

[CAJumper]

"I guess I must be dumb, she had a pocket full of horses-- Trakehners, some of them used."


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ghazzu]

But you'd still hum snippets from "The Desert Song" as you ride and regale all within earshot of your horse's noble ancestry, wouldn't you? That's what Arabian owners do, you know ... ;)

But of course--I can trace the pedigrees of 3 of my 5 right back to the tribes that bred them :D. And maybe hum the overture to "Lawrence of Arabia"--I once did a freestyle demo to that for a NEDA gig...

[mp]

But of course--I can trace the pedigrees of 3 of my 5 right back to the tribes that bred them :D. And maybe hum the overture to "Lawrence of Arabia"--I once did a freestyle demo to that for a NEDA gig...

Ooooh, I bet that was cool. Maybe I could do one to a polka -- mine are all Polish. :lol:

[Ghazzu]

Ooooh, I bet that was cool. Maybe I could do one to a polka -- mine are all Polish. :lol:

Actually, it was a lot of fun--done barefoot (me--Tiger had shoes) in native costume (semi-authentic vs. sequins and tinsel).
Got "lost" in the middle of it and panicked--then realized the *audience* didn't know where I was supposed to be going, so I improvised.

The funniest part was all the big WB serious dressage riders were impressed with the ability of the little Ayrab to go from 0-60 and then stop on a dime, and I fnally realized that stuff would be *hard* with the physics involved when you rode a big horse.

This was part of a really fun gig NEDA did for a few years at Gore Place--they had all sorts of breed demos, interspersed with freestyles with riders in various costumes--up to and including "Elvis" to a medley of his hits.

[egontoast]

Sonesta, here's another:

" My Kingdom for an Orlov Trotter( or was it Standardbred)"

:lol:

I mean if you are going to fabricate quotes (IOW lie) at least choose dead authors! :lol:

[fiona]

You praise the restraint with which they write-
I'm with you there, of course:
They use the snaffle and curb all right,
But where's the bl***y horse?

[Sandy M]

Um....my nice (now elderly) young TB-Type App scored 72% at Intro after about five months training. His next show we went training and score 65% and 66%. At 1st level he average 62- 66%, and at 2nd level about 61%. Needless to say, I certainly did NOT assume after he got that 72% that he was going to set the world on fire as a GP dressage horse, making the dressage world safe for appies. (I guess Pay 'N' Go already did that, to the extent that any ONE horse could.)

Hey, congrats, a cute little cob did well at his first show. He behaved. He was obedient. I would be delighted took, especially for a young stallion. He was cute. But it's hardly a predictor of great success at dressage. There's a discussion on TOB about Lisa Wilcox telling the rider in a photo submitted to the "Dressage Clinic" in DT that since her horse has a halter pedigree and is built downhill, she should get another horse if she wishes to succeed in dressage. The discussion, of course, goes back and forth between "some people want to work with the horse they have," to "Lisa is just being honest," to "dressage is supposed to improve any horse, etc." If that much discussion is going on over a light horse bred Paint, I imagine pretty much the same arguments would go on about coloured cob.

I do think it is the ridiuclous prices that just drive everyone nuts about these horses. When I visited a friend in England, he had a coloured cob in training. The owner had paid between 400 and 500 pounds for it - roughly $800 - $1,000 U.S. All she expected from it was to be a nice hack. There were ads for coloured cobs with TONS of training - successful cobs that had been shown (not in dressage) for up to 5,000 pounds. But I just roll my eyes when I see ads for $32,000 GV weanlings.

[neVar]

Ok not reading through all this thread since i'm now finishing page 2

Congrats to a good lil horse who showed good showing and training to get such scores.

I think it is GOOD to see other breeds competing with properly prepared trainers/riders and showing that especially at the lower levels the 'other' breeds can do JUST as well.. Often these are MUCH more appropriate mounts then a large moving warmblood. There is much of a mindset in the world of lower level and amature riders that they (and i include myself in this as i got caught up in it) must own a Warmblood that has "8" or above gaits to do well in drssage. I hear this often enough from friends and clients. (never mind THOSe clients are doing just as well (or better) then me in the same shows/same tests!!!).

YEs if we want to compete regionally and make it to the top- you will eventually need a correct- good moving warmblood (or other bred for the sport type breed) but first if we find a horse who has no major conformation flaws, no major mental flaws, and has good correct movement.... we can learn ALOT and be VERY competitive locally at the same time!

[Sandy M]

I think it is GOOD to see other breeds competing with properly prepared trainers/riders and showing that especially at the lower levels the 'other' breeds can do JUST as well.. Often these are MUCH more appropriate mounts then a large moving warmblood. There is much of a mindset in the world of lower level and amature riders that they (and i include myself in this as i got caught up in it) must own a Warmblood that has "8" or above gaits to do well in drssage. I hear this often enough from friends and clients. (never mind THOSe clients are doing just as well (or better) then me in the same shows/same tests!!!).

YEs if we want to compete regionally and make it to the top- you will eventually need a correct- good moving warmblood (or other bred for the sport type breed) but first if we find a horse who has no major conformation flaws, no major mental flaws, and has good correct movement.... we can learn ALOT and be VERY competitive locally at the same time!

Absolutely correct. But the OP - and in subsequent posts - inferred that these scores were really, really good (rather than average good for a green horse), that other breeds ought to "look out" for this horse in the future, etc. I think most posters here are saying what you're saying: It's great that a non-traditional breed did well at it's first show at a low level - but that doesn't mean that it's on the fast track for national championships at high levels.

[LizzieD]

I have read with interest, this thread and indeed others, regarding the Gypsy Horses.
Firstly, I'd like to congratulate the OP and Sailor, with their first foray into the world of Dressage. Every horse in every breed, has to start somewhere and I think for being a member of a breed which was not specifically bred or noted for this purpose, he made a very reasonable account of himself. I know we will in the future, be seeing many more Gypsy Horses in the sport and hopefully some will achieve note in higher levels of competition.
There are currently, several Gypsy Horses competing in other venues. At least two owners, are working cattle with the breed and are surprised that they a showing signs of having as much "cow" in them, as some of their Quarter Horses.
Several others are now competing in Rodeo events with their young owners and also, are showing well against the more popular breeds in the sport. At least one is being used and has shown ability as an extremely good Polo mount. This horse owned by someone who travels the world, playing the game and also owns their own string of Polo Ponies. Do they get laughed at in the Polo circles. Of course, but he has shown speed, bravery and can turn rather more quickly than many had imagined.
One question, which devotees of the breed is probably most often asked, is "But what can they do?"
The answer is of course, "Just about anything one wants them to do or trains them to do."
The levels to which they succeed however, depends upon the training and of course the individual's conformation limits and his work ethic. Maybe one of the great virtues of the breed, is their work ethic. Most seem to learn quickly and have an extremely willing spirit.
So now if I may, I'd like to touch on the "myth and magic" of the breed.
There is no "myth" or "magic"! Just as in other breeds, some of their devotees unfortunately, love to add flowery text on their websites. They are obviously no more magical, than a Mustang one might adopt from rescue.
They are NOT "Golden Retreivers with Hooves" as (again unfortunately) many have on their websites. This type of ridiculous advertising, gives the newcomer, the idea that their horse is almost born trained and safe around the youngest children. It also makes those of us who are serious, extremely angry that some write this stuff. Putting any horse in a situation for small children to creep under and over him, is an accident waiting to happen. Although, they are on the whole, fairly quiet, as compared to some breeds, one can obviously find varying temperaments. This would of course, depend upon whether one has purchased an older stallion, who has never been handled and spent his life as a herd sire in the UK, or a youngster, probably born in the US and which was handled and taught his manners from birth.
I have also seen unhandled, older stallions arriving in the US who were incredibly quiet and willing to be handled immediately. One such stallion has just arrived on these shores last week and everyone at the Quarantine station, was sorry to see him leave. Not only is he probably the best example of the breed I have ever seen, but obviously has the temperament, breeders desire and should indeed, breed toward. I was delighted when his new owner, allowed me to name him.
I have fought long and hard, against the over-jealous and often downright ridiculous talk, that a few have put about, concerning the Gypsy Horse. Basicly, this was started by one person, who is a master of advertising and who said he and his wife, were the first to introduce the horse to the US. This is actually untrue. A lady in California, purchased several of these horses many years before. However, she didn't seek to re-name them or set out on a public campaign to make a name for herself. Her horses were purched in Ireland, from a family who had bred these horses for generations. The family's descendants are breeding to this day and although now having moved their herd to England from Ireland, still have a large herd of exceptional stock. That family is now in their seventh generation of breeding these horses. There was also another lady who purchased a couple of these horses much earlier than our "Advertising King", and she also, bred a few but stayed in the background.
I have also publicly stated elsewhere, that I think the trademarking of a "certain" name for the breed in America, was incredibly presumptuous. Worse yet, was the myth put about by the originator of that name and registry, that somehow only those registered in this one registry, were true Gypsy Horses and all registered in other registries, were of some inferior or cross breeding. Sadly there are still a few followers, who contintue to spew this silliness.
I won't go into the difference between the Irish Travellers of old and the Romany Gypsies of England, but know there is indeed a difference in their background, culture and language. Both bred horses originally, which they needed to pull their light carts and later, when they moved into the incredibly heavy caravans, a much heavier horse was bred. Both the Travellers of Ireland and Romany of England, have interbred their good horses for several generations now, to achieve the breed we now know today as the Gypsy Horse. At the big fairs, horses are constantly bought and sold between countries, just as will happen at the big Appleby Fair coming up in a few days.
Certainly, when the public in the US, became aquainted with the breed - and it is indeed a "breed", there were/are many small time breeders and non-Gypsy folk, who bred/breed poor quality horses to try to make a quick dollar or pound.
The Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies also bred other "types" but I won't go into that here.
So what is my interest in the breed? Quite a lot actually. I met my first Gypsy Horse, in about 1944 or so. Giving away my age here, but know I have spent my life around horses. In the late 1940's and early '50's, my best friend's father, happened to breed Trotters in England. The Gypsies are well known for their Trotters (quite different from their Gypsy Horses) and I was lucky enough to be able to attend horse sales and fairs, almost weekly.
As I grew up and moved to the US from England, I bred and showed several breeds which appealed to me. Due to health reasons, I no longer own horses at all, but happily my daughter does. She started with Haflingers but moved on to Gypsy Horses, a few years ago. (And no - she has never paid $30,000 for one)
Being unable to actually own horses these days but with my interest never having wained, I decided to launch into extensive research on my daughter's breed of choice. Still having many family and friends in England, I was able to meet up with many long time breeders. Breeders who's families had a long history in the breed and were of either original Romany or Irish Traveller stock. I still regularly receive emails from Gypsies in England, who have discovered us on the internet and are proud to show me their stock. They have so far, never tried to sell us anything but are always very willing to try to help me with my ongoing research. While almost all are "settled" now and most have businesses outside the realm of horses, their horses and the breeding of them, is a huge source of real pride in these families.
And no - you will not find their horses tethered along the sides of the road in the UK. Their prized herds and especially their most prized stallions, are often hidden away, well out of view of the public. Their good horses are passed from one Gypsy family to another, privately or at Fairs and for sometimes incredible sums of money. This, long before the Americans came to light as a sales source. As one Gypsy fellow told me, "We've been paying high prices and selling to each other, long before Americans ever heard of the breed and will continue to do so if those in America decided to never import again."
Happily, I can count many true Gypsies and Traveller families, among good friends these days and I speak to many almost daily.
Many have helped in my background (Pedigree) research, telling what they and older members of their families remember, describing famous horses of the past and who bred them, owned them, to whom they were sold and when they died.
Many have actually been guests of breeders here in America and one cannot help but see the pride in their eyes, knowing that others will carry on, some of the lines their families helped build.
Other old families in the breed, have been kind enough, to supply DNA on many of the horses they still own, so we can accurately track supposed bloodlines to make sure that which we have been told, is true. At the moment, even though we have three active Registries, each has an incredible amount of DNA on file and are now sharing their findings.
As with all breeds, the beginnings of trying to trace horses accurately, is fraught with frustration when researching past horses and trying to prove pedigrees. DNA is obviously helping us a great deal in that regard. Unlike a few years ago, when many horses were imported with unknown backgrounds, American breeders are trying their best, to discover the true background of the horses they breed. While many of the backgrounds on certain horses are still unknown, those sincerely interested in the breed, can tell quite quickly, where an unknown background means a true Gypsy Horse background for at least a few generations, or one which has been crossed with other breeds, quite close up. Gypsies of old, seldom named all their horses so while a name on a pedigree today might say "unknown", for an obviously well bred Gypsy horse, I prefer to see "unnamed" written. These days of course, most of the breed are being named and registered - and with DNA to back it up.
Certainly there are unfortunately, many in the US who are breeding coloured horses with or without a little feather and advertising them as Gypsy Horses. Obviously some buyers will be taken in, but it is without doubt, that nobody can make an instant Gypsy Horse. He is the product of many generations of horses, bred by those who originally travelled the roads of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
I have never met the OP but do know of her very good herd of horses. I also think I remember, that one Traveller breeder, actually came over to the US and purchased one of her good horses, to take back to Ireland. She will no doubt correct me if I'm incorrect in that.
I hope I haven't bored everyone overly, with this rather ponderous post, but I just wanted to clear up some of the myths and legends and hope those in other breeds, don't think we all subscribe to some of the advertising idiocy. It is a small minority.
I sincerely hope that those in other breeds, more established on paper, will understand that those of us who love the Gypsy Horse, are sincerely trying to do the right thing, for the breed and those Gypsies and Travellers, who long ago, sought to produce the horse we know and love today.
Lizzie

[fiona]

You'll be telling us that Warmbloods are just some farmers carthorse bred with a TB next! I say keep the Majik!


Plus if we can sell any old coloured cob for $30,000 and you don't even have to bother giving it a haircut you'd be crazy to bust that myth.

[spotted mustang]

And because I just can't resist, I'm going to offer the following "quotes" and "book titles" for your consideration.

"There is something about the outside of a Morgan ithat is s good for the inside of a man." -- Winston Churchill

My Knabstruppers, My Teachers by Alois Podhajsky

No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle on a Halflinger. ~Winston Churchill

Quarter Horses and children, I often think, have a lot of the good sense there is in the world. ~Josephine Demott Robinson

The wind of heaven is that which blows between a Paint horse's ears. ~Arabian Proverb

Ah, Morabs, Morabs, what steeds! Has the whirlwind a home in your manes? Is there a sensitive ear, alert as a flame, in your every fiber? Hearing the familiar song from above, all in one accord you strain your bronze chests and, hooves barely touching the ground, turn into straight lines cleaving the air, and all inspired by God it rushes on! ~Nikolai V. Gogol, Dead Souls, 1842, translated from Russian (above is combination of translations by Bernard Guildert Guerney, Richard Peaver, and Larisa Voloklonsky)

There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his Friesian horse. ~Robert Smith Surtees, "Chapter XXX: Bolting the Badger," Mr. Sponge's Sporting Tour, 1853

A lovely Andalusian horse is always an experience.... It is an emotional experience of the kind that is spoiled by words. ~Beryl Markham

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no palomino horses. ~R.B. Cunninghame Graham, letter to Theodore Roosevelt, 1917

He's of the colour of the nutmeg. And of the heat of the ginger.... he is pure air and fire; and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him, but only in patient stillness while his rider mounts him; he is indeed a Saddlebred horse, and all other jades you may call beasts. ~William Shakespeare, Henry V

You guys care to add others? Oh, and feel free to substitute the breed of your choice in place of mine. And DO put the quote on your website to promote your breed and try to make others more ignorant believe this is the actual quote!


"The earth will part and the heavens will cleave before an appaloosa changes its spots"

(I totally made that up)

[slc2]

you're missing two things. one, the arabian 'history' is just as much a load of malarky as the vanner history is, and second, for those of you who missed it, what's MISSING is that in america, green broke three year old arabian horses are selling for less than a tenth of what the MAGIKAL vanners are selling for in america, AND....in magikal vanner land, in 'gypsy land', in ireland, vanners are selling for a TENTH of what the green broke 3 year old arabians are selling for in america! :D

[Ghazzu]

So what gives? Is it just pure fun for you guys to trash the GV horse? Why not trash the Arabians who apparently can poop butterflies and are every bit as majikal.

But Arabs *do* get trashed here--on a regular basis.:D (Or at least the hyperbole associated with them) Maybe you've missed it, but it happens.

COTH is equal opportunity here--the BS spewed by any breed promoter--Arab, Vanner, Friesian, Appaloosa, et al, is fodder for ridicule.

[slc2]

exactly.

[Sonesta]

Exactly! It's the BS being spewed that is being ridiculed. Not the horses!

[Auventera Two]

you're missing two things. one, the arabian 'history' is just as much a load of malarky as the vanner history is, and second, for those of you who missed it, what's MISSING is that in america, green broke three year old arabian horses are selling for less than a tenth of what the MAGIKAL vanners are selling for in america, AND....in magikal vanner land, in 'gypsy land', in ireland, vanners are selling for a TENTH of what the green broke 3 year old arabians are selling for in america! :D

Isn't this a supply and demand thing though? The Vanner isn't native to this country, and there are very few breeders, therefore very few horses available. So of course they aren't dime a dozen like Arabs or Quarters are. Just like the lady I already mentioned who is paying buuukoo dollars to import a QH from Texas to France. She'd likely get the same QH here for a thousand bucks but she's spending many many times that in France because QHs aren't a dime a dozen there like they are here. Same principle.

Same hype with Friesans. Just a big black draft horse, but people will spend 50K on a yearling partly because of all the romantacism, but also partly because they're just harder to come by, and breeders CAN charge more money for them.

Same hype with Andalusians and Lusitanos.

Same hype with the triple latte double expressed quadruple dilute sabino rabicano dunalinos with whipped cream on top that you see on the breeder's forum. You get a colored TB, and look out, that thing is worth the moon. But its because there just aren't many of them, and they're a "hot item."

Vanners are no different.

So no, of course you'd never have to pay 50K for a plain ole' Arab, a TB, or a QH, because America is innundated with them. The public sets the prices - not the breeders. If they couldn't ever get 50K for a weanling, then after a while they'd quit charging it and the price would come down. But obviously people pay it, so who cares?

[slc2]

It's not a matter of supply and demand. It's a matter of investment and markup. Sure, the scheme counts on people being stupid enough to pay a ridiculous amount of money for something.

[mp]

"We have always been in awe of the magestic Egyptian Arabian horse."
http://www.egyptianarabians.com/index.html

Why wouldn't they think the horses are majestic? They BREED the g.d. things. Besides, everybody knows Egyptian breeders are nuts.

"We believe in and promote the MAGIC of the Arabian horse!"
http://www.tahssd.com/

"Magic" in the context of South Dakota must be considered a relative term.

Wikipedia gives 3 accounts of the "mythology" behind the Arabian horse, and talks about war horns sounding and the "five chosen mares" being loyal to their master, and a legendary stallion who can gallop faster than a gazelle and a zebra, and a story that Allah created the Arabian horse of the four winds of the earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse

Anybody can put stuff on Wikipedia. At least they referred to the stories as "myth."

And from the Arabian Horse Association website itself:

"To the Islamic people, he was considered a gift from Allah, to be revered, cherished and almost worshipped."
http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_history_bedouin.asp

And:

"This awe-inspiring horse of the east appears on seal rings, stone pillars and various monuments with regularity after the 16th century B.C. Egyptian hieroglyphics proclaim his value; Old Testament writings are filled with references to his might and strength. Other writings talk of the creation of the Arabian, "thou shallst fly without wings and conquer without swords."
http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_history_origin.asp

AHA has really covered themselves in glory re: the accurate history and betterment of the breed, haven't they? Ever heard of 30-Maria?


our own Arabian horses have an illustrious and dramatic history and following, absolutely no different than the Vanners do. You can find just as many references to magic and mythical tales as you can find on the Vanner sites.

I will bet if you do some research, you'll find that the percentage of GV sites touting magic, etc. is far higher than it is for Arabian sites. So go get started and report back. OK?

[Coreene]

Oh please. Many years ago, Paddy O'Door had a stallion that jumped into Fachtna O'Kelly's field. The two listened to some Thin Lizzy records and had at it. Fachtna, not needing the resulting colt, gave it to some of the gypsies living at the bottom of Fachtna's field. :cool:

[Candle]

I must have missed it, but could you point me to where these Gypsy horses are excelling in h/j (and Western, for that matter)?

I'm not saying that someone who first and foremost wants one of these feathered things can't jump it, but I find my credulity a wee bit strained when told they're "excelling in hunter/jumper".

Mind you, I have an Arab I show in hunter and dressage. If I seriously wanted to be competitive at the hunter thing though, I'd a) get a TB (can't do WB's, just can't) and b) get my sorry carcass to a good h/j trainer.

Um IIRC that was where the last thread took a horrid turn for the worse. That point is apparently lost on the OP and such followers, who have a wildly different definition of "excelling" than lots of the rest of us do. As in, someone spilled the kool-aid on the dictionary too. :confused:

And edited to add to Auventera Two: I think the part that gets me all irritated is that these people keep taking their (lovely) breed to low level shows, and then claiming that this is IRREFUTABLE PROOF that their breed is CURRENTLY EXCELLING in many other venues. Seriously, this is where the original majikal pooping butterfly thread derailed before. One show at Training Level does NOT prove that there are GVs out there excelling in H/J and other disciplines. Where are they? What GV has placed in a 4ft class at a AA show? Tell me please because that might come somewhere close to the "my breed is excelling in every discipline". Closer than a 60 some % at Training Level.

Nobody is bashing the horses, on this thread at least. It's just preposterous to claim that GVs are out excelling in other disciplines, when nobody in the GV camp can back this up beyond a few out working cows, and maybe some 3' jumper classes. :mad:

[2foals]

I don't think it is really about supply and demand. I think that gypsy vanners (and Friesians as well) are an example of very successful marketing and salesmanship. Gypsy vanners are cute little horses with flowing hair advertised towards novices with a lot of romanticism and a few creative claims. Since the potential buyers are novices, horses with flaws or a lack of athletic ability are not necessarily discounted.

Yes, warmblood youngsters DO sometimes sell for large amounts. But, the ones that do (and even many of the more moderately priced ones) are perfect physical specimens with spotless x-rays who have been carefully scrutinized. The warmblood market is very competitive--if a horse has a lack of athletic ability or a flaw of some kind, it's unlikely to sell for a profit.

On the other hand, I visited a reputable Friesian farm last year and a couple young horses with obvious flaws were still priced to sell at a comfortable profit for their ages/training. (They also had "highly trained dressage horses" for sale, but no one could tell me what level any of them were trained to.) I have nothing against Friesians, and some of the horses on the farm did appear to be very athletic in addition to being pretty.

[Coreene]

One of my uncles bred Fresians in Holland. Friesians are driving horses. Oh sure, there are some like Goffert that will knock your socks off under saddle and are just gorgeous, but I never understood that mad dash to go out and buy a Fresian to ride.

[SillyHorse]

My gelding got scores of 71% and 73% in his first show (T3 and T4), won his first horse trial (ok, hopeful division, but still... :lol: ), and was champion at his first and only hunter show (baby green). So what? None of it means anything now that we're gettin' up there with the big boys in dressage. The lower lever stuff is easy, and I'm not surprised that any horse whould get a score in the mid-60s at Training level.

I'm happy for the OP and understand the pride she feels, but believe me, the proof is in the pudding they serve at 2nd level and up.

[neVar]

Totally agree- will this vanner go be national champion at grand prix in 5 years/? more hten likely not.

But it is good to see well presented (well trained, well prepared, well ridden- which one would need to get in the 60's at your first show no matter what breed) alternative breeds (not even getting into the 'vanner' thing.... as i'm with you on alot of that there slc) do well. It makes it look (other breeds then WB) as a good alternative to those who's AIM is the lower levels. I have a friend who has an appy who is constantly saying 'maybe i should go get a warmblood to do better" NOOOOO it's not the breed of the horse causing these scores (mid 50-to high 50's her first season out). It's just where you are... it will take lessons and training for YOU to get there (The horse is a DOLL). But it will take MORE of these WELL PREPARED "other breeds" showing to help make them a viable option for those lower level riders... well an 'obvious' viable option.... the issue is at alot of shows (and i know it aint just round here folks) you see the qh's and the arab,s and the morgans being ridden by joe blow who asks the show secretary the day of the show (can you tell i run horse shows??*L*) "How do you ride a dressage test anyway??".... those horses aren't allowed to show what they can do- and so they score low (and deservadly) and then someone tells so and so that well "if she had a warmblood she would have done better" and that itself is bullwocky- if that person had had a warmblood that was 4 and never been off the gorunds and showed up that unprepared she would probably be dead- not just scoring poorly....

OK i'm starting to rant *L* I'll shut up NOW

[fiona]

"The earth will part and the heavens will cleave before an appaloosa changes its spots"

(I totally made that up)

Don't knock yourself, i've virtually made a career on that basis , well that and expensive clothes.

[J Lav]

I am gobsmacked at the prices of the horses for sale on the website that has that stallion on!!

Do people in the US really pay these prices? If so I feel a new business venture taking off as I can buy them broken and going for a few hundred pounds. For those few hundred you'll also get tall tales of generations of selected breeding and they'll probably knock you up a pedigree if you really want it :winkgrin: :winkgrin:

They are popular horses over here as the are very cheap and generally easy to do and keep and its not at all unusual to see them in the dressage arena at the lower levels and doing very well at it.

Even the ones that are doing our coloured showing classes at the highest levels are only selling here for £8/9K.

[Sandy M]

Totally agree- will this vanner go be national champion at grand prix in 5 years/? more hten likely not.

But it is good to see well presented (well trained, well prepared, well ridden- which one would need to get in the 60's at your first show no matter what breed) alternative breeds (not even getting into the 'vanner' thing.... as i'm with you on alot of that there slc) do well. It makes it look (other breeds then WB) as a good alternative to those who's AIM is the lower levels. I have a friend who has an appy who is constantly saying 'maybe i should go get a warmblood to do better" NOOOOO it's not the breed of the horse causing these scores (mid 50-to high 50's her first season out). It's just where you are... it will take lessons and training for YOU to get there (The horse is a DOLL). But it will take MORE of these WELL PREPARED "other breeds" showing to help make them a viable option for those lower level riders... well an 'obvious' viable option.... the issue is at alot of shows (and i know it aint just round here folks) you see the qh's and the arab,s and the morgans being ridden by joe blow who asks the show secretary the day of the show (can you tell i run horse shows??*L*) "How do you ride a dressage test anyway??".... those horses aren't allowed to show what they can do- and so they score low (and deservadly) and then someone tells so and so that well "if she had a warmblood she would have done better" and that itself is bullwocky- if that person had had a warmblood that was 4 and never been off the gorunds and showed up that unprepared she would probably be dead- not just scoring poorly....

OK i'm starting to rant *L* I'll shut up NOW


Ahhhh....but I think a GV is hardly a "viable option" for someone who perhaps cannot afford (or ride) a fancy WB when GV weanings have asking prices of $32K. At that rate, I could buy a schoolmaster (say $20-25K) and a yearling WB of good quality ($8,000 - $12,000).

[egontoast]

They are popular horses over here as the are very cheap and generally easy to do and keep and its not at all unusual to see them in the dressage arena at the lower levels and doing very well at it.

Even the ones that are doing our coloured showing classes at the highest levels are only selling here for £8/9K.

YES! You only have to pick up a British Horse magazine to see the ads.

That's the point some people keep missing and that's where the majikal butterfly jokes come in. It's all about the spin.

A horse is a horse of course of course.

Enjoy your horse, whatever the breed or type!:)

[LizzieD]

I detect a note of sarcasm, in some posts here. I fully undersand, that it springs from people who have probably never really studied the breed, but maybe hear and believe, that which they have been told.
Having known some Gypsy and Traveller families for many years, I also know that they are not well liked in the UK. Have some from their cultures, brought it upon themselves? Of course they have - just like many members of the rest of the population.
Does the hatred of those who still travel the roads of the UK, still go on today? Of course it does. My best friend in England, happens to be married to a true Romany fellow. Her two dear little girls still suffer much in school, when someone finds out her Dad is a Gypsy. He happens to be in another business, but members of his family, still breed the horses which was part of their heritage.
Many of the old Gypsy families are now "settled" and have businesses in other fields. But most - maybe many, still keep a herd of good horses, handed down, generation after generation. These are those who can still sell the good ones, to other Gypsies for some big money. However, those horses who command the really big prices - say 25,000 pounds and up to some incredible amounts, are few and far between. And yes, I know of at least two or three, which have sold for 100,000 pounds. As one long time Gypsy breeder told me, "We have always been able to sell our good ones between each other and if people in the US never imported another horse from the UK, we'd still be breeding and selling to each other in the future."
Many years ago and long before the breed was known in the US, a stallion who is still alive today, sold between the Gypsies, for 25,000 pounds. He became known as "The Twenty Five Grand Horse." Others have followed commanding some big prices. Last year at Appleby, a weanling filly, fetched 30,000 pounds! Would any American pay that much? Not likely. She was sold from one Gypsy family to another and will no doubt stay in England for her entire life.
Certainly, there are some resellers in the US, who saw some obviously inflated prices here and sought to pick up as many poor quality horses - mostly advertised in newspapers for little money and bring them over to the US. I call these people "pop-ups" since most often, they have done no homework, usually buy and sell many other breeds and certainly wouldn't know a good Gypsy Horse from a poor one. Will some purchasers be taken in? Certainly they will, but we who are serious, try our best to educate newcomers and also explain that a cheap horse isn't necessarily a bargain and an expensive one, necessarily the best.
We have about 8,000 or more Gypsy Horses in the US now. Fewer are actually importing. One can obtain a quite decent example of the breed, from about $5,000 to almost anything anyone is willing to pay. Obviously one should aquaint themselves with the breed and decide for themselves, whether a given horse is worth the money asked. Most of us, are also death on the few, who breed tons of ET's each year of like breedings. Sadly, there are still some, who are taken in by huge advertising and will pay big money for a horse with many identically bred siblings from that year.
Actually, there are very few serious breeders in the UK, from whom most of us buy. You will not see their horses advertised in the classifieds (they don't need to) or tethered by the side of the road. Their horses have sold and are still selling, between the Gypsies themselves, for sometime incredible amounts of money. Much of the time, their herds are kept well out of sight and especially their most prized stallions. There are some stallions, which no amount of money would ever buy and they have many standing offers.
One must also remember, that today, whatever the price one pays for a horse from the breeder, we must add about $9,000 currently for transportation to the US. On top of that will be quarantine and vet fees and also transportation to the home of the purchaser if necessary. Most of us also demand independent Vet checks in the UK, before the money is paid. We demand photos of the sire and dam and DNA if possible. Many of the Gypsy breeders in England have invited US breeders to their homes to see their stock first hand and collect hair samples to take back to the US.
I wrote to many of the old Gypsy Horse breeders in the UK a couple of years ago, asking if they'd be willing to send hair samples for our DNA files here. All but one agreed.
Are there many in the UK who offer horses with made up pedigrees? You bet. Such small time breeders will very seldom sell a horse to the US. We've been on to their stories for a while now and we know who they are.
Many of the most well known Gypsy breeders from the UK, also attend our shows and Equine Affaires, several time a year. The source of pride in their eyes, when they see their stock doing well here, is not lost on any of us.
To touch on the original subject for a moment.
The Gypsy Horse was imported and known on the European Continent, many years before Americans ever heard of them. In Germany, the Netherlands and Holland, many have indeed made their mark in Dressage. In those countries, the breed is known as "Tinkers".
Some of these horses have recently found their way here. Tomboy, who is a blue and white stallion, (originally from Ireland I believe) is at level 4. I'm fairly certain his new owner here, will be showing him in the sport soon.
Another who made is mark abroad, is Slygo. I tend to think he won't be shown here since he was purchased purely as a stud horse, but has left several offspring in Germany, who are apparently starting out well and making something of themselves.
Compared to the rest of the world, the breed is in it's infancy in America. I imagine as in other breeds, as time goes on, we will indeed be seeing many of the breed, competing and maybe reaching higher levels.
I am fully aware, that much of my writings here, will not find favour among those in more long established breeds. But know, that the research and frustration to document solidly, in your breed of choice, went on years ago by some dedicated fancers, who's names might be long forgotten. It was they who brought to you, the breed you know and love today.
We are doing the very best we can and we are trying to do it properly. Every horse who enters the US in now DNA'd. DNA is then compared by all three registries, to that on file, who is "said" to be the sire of a given horse. Owners are informed immediately, if something is amiss. When I made my daughter's website, I wrote on the home page, "Preserving the past, for the future".
It is what we are doing and hope to continue doing, with as much integrity as humanly possible.
Lizzie

[Dazednconfused]

Oh boy. The horses come in blue now!

:eek:

[pinecone]

I think it would be interesting to see some of these GV promoters put their money where their mouth is, and pool together some of the absurd profits they are making on these horses, and send a couple of them out to Good Dressage Trainers and see if they can really Be Successful. Myths and pooping butterflies just don't do it for me, but I might be impressed to see one in the ring at FEI.

I'd be even more impressed if it was a blue one.

[LizzieD]

Actually, very, very few, will ever make a profit in this breed. It would be nice if we could.
My daughter has had them for about 4 years now. She has three mares. One 10 year old mare, one four, one yearling and a 2 year old colt and a yearling colt.
One colt she purchased purely for a gelding to ride later in The Rose Parade. She flew to England to pick him out.
She has bred only two babies. One she sold for about $8,500 I believe and the other she kept. This will be the first year she will be breeding both her older mares. The eldest has been bred twice, with one year off. Three have been to her trainer to work under saddle. One - the four year old, was in the Rose Parade this year. At least two or more, will also learn to drive. I don't know that she'll ever put anything to Dressage. Since I had Saddlebreds when she was growing up, she mostly rode Saddleseat.
With the equestrian facilites she has put in, I imagine she's now about $300,000 in the hole now. She never got into the breed, to make a profit. She won't live long enough, to make a profit. She purchased her horses because she likes them. Thinking about it seriously, I imagine less than 2 or 3% of those purchasing here in the US, are actually making a profit. Maybe not even that many. Most have the breed because it appeals to them. But others tend to only find and view some of the very heavily advertised farms, who offer horses for outrageous prices, and think we are all like that. Those, I could probably count on one hand. And let's not fool ourselves into thinking that such people actually "get" the prices they advertise. I know for a fact, that many have been purchased for less than half the price advertised.
I imagine in the future, we will see many in the breed competing in many and varied venues. Just understand, that unlike the breed in many European countries, where it has been known for many years, most horses here in the US are fairly new and as yet untrained or if in training, have only recently begun.
I don't know what breed you have pinecone, but I imagine that in the early days of your breed, you didn't suddenly find a whole lot in the ring at FEI.
For anyone truly interested in colour, I put all my Gypsy Horse Colour photos, in a new album today. Hopefully it explains some of the colours, found in the breed.
http://community.webshots.com/album/559288274yEFLBV?start=0
When I joined this forum, I was required to agree to be polite, respectful and nice. I have tried to adhere to that which was required.
Lizzie

[Equibrit]

The colour of these horses is either piebald or skewbald.

[slc2]

Rest assured. When a horse sells for 400 quid in england, and 50,000 dollars in america, someone is making money.

Quite a few people, in fact.

I believe the current saying is 'do the math'.

[Delyth]

There are so many misconceptions about equine color genetics on that page, I just don't know where to start....

[slc2]

Well, not every researcher agrees about details of horse color inheritance. And much of what passes for gospel in that area, is, I'm afraid, more slanted toward marketing than science.

That said, what do you feel is wrong? What would you change? That statement is just too much of a teaser.

[ddashaq]

The colour of these horses is either piebald or skewbald.


I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

[Waterwitch]

And let's not fool ourselves into thinking that such people actually "get" the prices they advertise. I know for a fact, that many have been purchased for less than half the price advertised.

As an "observer" of this breed due to having a friend who breeds them, I have long suspected that the prices are part of the marketing hype for some of the less ethical breeders (not my friend). If everyone quotes high and never tells the actual selling price...

Really, how is one to know this isn't what the Romany trading amongst themselves are doing?

[Lancaster9]

I have a couple of genuine questions about the "Gypsy Horse / Gypsy Vanner" that I haven't seen answered anywhere else. First, I've yet to see a breed standard described anywhere (beyond the claims of common ancestry and temperament). Understanding what GH/GV people are breeding FOR would probably help people to talk about the breed's suitability for dressage in a more enlightened way. If we know what the physical standard is then we can evaluate it in terms of dressage potential. If there is no common physical type then there's really no point in talking about the general ability of the breed overall.

Second, and most importantly, this has been bugging me for years.... why on earth would anyone name a breed after an ethnic slur, as "gypsy" truly is?! Above all else, the name of this breed has turned my stomach since I first heard it. Can someone please explain?

[Equibrit]

A Gypsy (Romani) is a member of a race of people originally from northern India who typically used to travel from place to place, and now live especially in Europe and North America:
Is that a racial slur?
Their roots and language have been pretty well documented here; http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/colldescs/gls.html
These horses were originally bred specifically to aide in their life style using what was available along the way.
I don't think they did dressage or kept written breeding records..

As for the purveyors of fairy dust - there's no telling what they are breeding for!
Hairy bits maybe?

[slc2]

ause the word 'gypsy' started as a perjorative word, that doesn't mean that it retains that meaning in all uses for all time. The worst swear words we have in English today were once ordinary farming terminology. 'dementia' means something entirely different than it did 100 yrs ago. Words change meaning all the time. The word 'gypsy' in particular has changed meaning.

It has connotations that make it VERY attractive word to use in a marketing sense. It's doubtful any of these horses laid eyes on any gypsies for many generations, but the connotation of freedom, romantic dancing and footloose travelers helps sell the horses. Colorful clothes, hot, passionate men and a clannish ethic. The gypsies are portrayed as having a mysterious knowledge of horses and long secret knowlede of how to handle them.

Recent movies like 'Into the West' may show the gypsy life a little differently....a small number of people, uneducated, disenfranchised, unemployed, living in urban poverty with few prospects for the future, and a romantic past that may make them bitter as they think about how little that romance does for them today.

I guess I would be far more in favor of these overpriced horses if ANY --- ANY of the money went to help any gypsies that remain. It does not. It mist emphatically does not. Not one single penny. And the few gypsies that do remain, while some have been successful and are secure, most are not. And this gimmick - this travesty of 'gypsy horses' doesn't benefit any of them in any way. That little old markup doesn't line any gypsy wallets.

Most people have read or learned something about gypsies. The term evokes a lot of emotion.

There used to be gypsies here and there, in small numbers, around much of Europe and the British Isles. Genetic studies have failed to show them to be a single people or to have a single unified origin. The
Travelers' in America are argued to be originated from Irish Gypsies, and some may be, or it may be another one of those 'fluid' groups that are hard to define; gypsies are sometimes called Travelers in other countries other than the US so it gets confusing. The same goes for the term 'Tinker', it is used to refer to different groups, and the Irish Tinkers don't represent a single unified group with one ancestry.

The 'Romany' language is a romance language, and there are many arguments about exactly how or when it came about, though some relate it to Romania and gypsies to Romania. Despite a lot of very emotional arguments, no one is really sure where the gypsies came from and genetic tests suggest they are diverse rather than a unified ancestry.

Nearly 40 years ago, I was in France. At the time, two 80-ish ladies were referred to by the townspeople as 'Gypsies'. They used to wear old black dresses and headscarves, and every few Sundays, they would go to the local tavern and 'tear it up'. They argued endlessly and would overturn tables and make a mess and get drunk every time they showed up.

My sister told me a story about the French gypsies, and I've since heard it so many times and in so many forms that I began to wonder if it was an urban legend. She said that about 10 yr before that, that would make it about 50 years ago, the self proclaimed king of the gypsies brought an ancient relative to the hospital, and held a doctor by knifepoint and told him if the relative did not survive, neither would the doctor. The relative died, but due to some ancient proud code, the gypsy let the doctor go.

Such is the legends of the gypsies. There are positive and negative stories, but no real answers, and everyone pretty much believes whatever they need to believe.

[Lancaster9]

I admit I'm sensitive to the usage of this word because of my own heritage.... my grandmother instilled in me from a young age that "gypsy" was a "dirty word". I know many people today who still feel this way, though I'm sure that varies from place to place.... still, an interesting marketing choice I think. I wasn't trying to make accusations, just point out that some people would wholeheartedly reject that term as a descriptive of their ancestry. I assume that the breeders/exporters of these horses were wise to that fact, so I just wondered why that name was chosen. I guess you're right that it's all about romance and mystery for people who've never been on the receiving end of it's more negative usage. Apologies if I was oversensitive.

[Ghazzu]

The 'Romany' language is a romance language, and there are many arguments about exactly how or when it came about, though some relate it to Romania and gypsies to Romania...


From a somewhat scholarly source (http://www.geocities.com/%7Epatrin/history.htm):
"The Romani language (http://www.geocities.com/%7Epatrin/language.htm) is of Indo-Aryan origin and has many spoken dialects, but the root language is ancient Punjabi, or Hindi. The spoken Romani language is varied, but all dialects contain some common words in use by all Roma. Based on language, Roma are divided into three populations. They are the Domari of the Middle East and Eastern Europe (the Dom), the Lomarvren of Central Europe (the Lom), and the Romani of Western Europe (the Rom). There is no universal written Romani language in use by all Roma. However, the codification of a constructed, standardized dialect is currently in progress by members of the Linguistic Commission of the International Romani Union."

I don't think anyone seriously places Romani in the romance languages, which all descend from Latin...

[sascha]

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about, Ghazzu. After all, romance, romani, romansch, roma, all have the same first few letters. Therefore they must all be the same thing. Clearly.

[Equibrit]

http://www.romani.org/local/romhist.html

"Because recorded history of the Roma prior to their first documented appearances in Europe in the early 15th century is non-existent, there has been much debate as to their origins and early migration. Based on linguistic evidence (the similarity of the Romany language to Hindi, Panjabi, and related languages of Northern India) and anthropological evidence (body habitus and ABO blood group distributions closely approximating those of the warrior classes of northern India)(7), there is now a clear consensus of opinion that the modern day Roma of the Middle East, Europe, Asia, and the Americas originated in Northwestern India. There is also a general consensus regarding the approximate timing of their emigration, or at least the bulk of it if you believe in more than one wave of emigration - ie in the 11th century."


http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/Research/Projects/romani/files/11_origins.shtml


Origins
Romani is the only Indo-Aryan language that has been spoken exclusively in Europe since the middle ages. It is part of the phenomenon of Indic diaspora languages spoken by travelling communities of Indian origin outside of India. The name Rom or Řom, which is the self-designation of the speakers, has related cognates in the names of other travelling (peripatetic) communities that speak Indian languages or use an Indic-derived special vocabulary: The Lom of the Caucasus and Anatolia insert Indic vocabulary into their variety of Armenian. The Dom of the Near East, originally metalworkers and entertainers, speak Domari (http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/Research/Projects/romani/files/21_domari.shtml), one of the most conservative modern Indo-Aryan languages. In the Hunza valley in the north of Pakistan there is a population called the Ḍum, who are also metalworkers and musicians, and who speak a Central Indic (i.e. not a local) language. Based on the systematicity of sound changes attested in these languages, we know with a fair degree of certainty that these names all derive from the Indian term ḍom.
In various parts of India itself, groups known as Ḍom are castes of commercial nomads. References to the Ḍom (also called Ḍum or Ḍōmba) are made already by a number of medieval writers in India, such as Alberuni (writing in about 1020 CE), the grammarian Hemachandra (around 1120 CE), and the Brahmin historian of Kashmir, Kalhana (1150 CE). They all describe the Ḍom as a low-status caste whose typical trades included cleaners, sweepers, musicians, singers, jugglers, metalworkers and basket-makers, in some areas also seasonal farm-workers. Similar occupations are still reported for the Ḍom in modern India, whose total number was last recorded in the 1901 census at over 850,000 (according to G. S. Ghurye, 1979). The self-designation ḍom > řom thus appears to have originally been a caste-designation, used in different regions by different populations with similar types of trades. These populations spoke, and still speak, distinct languages, although their languages all belong to the Indic (Indo-Aryan) language family and so are related.

[cuatx55]

Now if you would all listen up for the REAL NEWS, the Ayrab breed has a WONDERFUL long history that is pure and free of malice, we should all fall over in awe at the beauty of these magical horses. Clearly all horses are not as good as my little ayrab dressage horse. She is now cantering! can't believe it myself! Clearly we all will be at GP next year. She took 2nd at the show!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist.....I hang my head in shame and walk away...

This is like politics and religion. I don't care what kind of horse people love, but don't expect me to fall all over the horse and don't push it on me with a "superior tone". No one gives me the time of day at a show, so why should I care that a horse got 2nd at training level? Now when I get my green horse around intro, it will be a personal victory for me. I'm sure my friends will know what it means, but I don't expect to come on here and brag. Personally I wouldn't ride a draft cross or GV horse. They just aren't my style.

Congrats on the show, it does sound like a nice horse for that rider...

[gortmore]

Does anyone else remember the Arab "world" of the 1980s? This looks awfully familiar.

I am not saying for one minute that there is anything wrong with GVs just that this whole marketing thing, high priced 'majikal' horses thing has been seen before and the fall out from it is not pretty.

[Ghazzu]

Does anyone else remember the Arab "world" of the 1980s?

I've been having flashbacks since the thread started.

The saving grace is that the changes in the tax laws haven't been repealed :D

[TheOtherHorse]

There are so many misconceptions about equine color genetics on that page, I just don't know where to start....

:yes: :yes: :yes: I was thinking the same thing! Do they just go around coming up with new color names for these Majikal horses or what?!? :lol:

[Equibrit]

Didn't the bottom fall out of the Emu market also?

[egontoast]

Didn't the bottom fall out of the Emu market also?


yES, there were oodles of feathers but they couldn't get them to grow on the legs.:cry:

[slc2]

There's only one problem with your last statement.

The Romance languages all came from the same root language as Hindi and Punjabi. It is possible, with all these languages, all of which arose from a common ancestor, to find SOME similarities and to find some bits and pieces that could back up ANY theory about ANYONE.

The idea that the 'Romance' languages came from Latin and Latin simply arose out of the sea is - fallacious.

In fact, it is generally accepted that isn't the case at all.

Latin is quite reliably traced to the same parent language as Hindi and Punjabi.

In fact, all the Indoeuropean languages trace back to one language. and that includes the slavic languages, the germanic languages, the romance languages - and the languages of India. I believe that the most archaic of all currently is Lithuanian. But each language family is interesting and how they relate is very complex and not at all simple.

Years ago, in Scientific American, there was a postuulated language dated back to 50,000 years ago, at it was modeled based on computer models generated by analyzing how languages change thru time and working backwards thru that process. It was very interesting. The two topics with the richest wordset? Insects that infest people and wounds. I do believe I was born in the wrong era.

[Equibrit]

That sounds like advanced ass covering bullshit to me!

http://www.orbilat.com/General_Survey/List_of_Romance_Languages.html

[slc2]

Very nasty, Equibrit, very nasty.

Perhaps you might be interested in reading Mallory's 'In Search of the Indo Europeans', then.

The most interesting part of it appears to be the relation of the spread of that language family to the domestication and spread of the use of the horse. Which is why I got interested in it.

The Times Literary Supplement calls Mallory's book 'One of the most reliable and well-balanced monographs on the Indo-Europeans to have appeared in many years'. The book has a very extensive bibliography and discusses at length many different theories of the languages involved. It came very highly recommended - by a friend in comparative linguistics. I had heard the other theories and thought they lacked something to back them up. The research used for this book is quite impressive.

[Spectrum]

I'll be perfectly honest and state that I skipped the last 5-odd pages of this thread, so if I duplicate anything anyone has already said, feel free to ignore my post.

While working under a well-known GP trainer, I had the opportunity to work with, ride and observe the training of several Gypsy Vanners, including three different stallions, one of which I broke to tack and started under saddle.

Several of these showed successfully under both professional and amateur riders at training level, scoring variously in the 60's (highs and lows). Having ridden them myself and assisted with the training, I felt pretty strongly they would top out around first level.

These horses, affectionately known throughout the world as "Tinker Horses," were bred to be largely non-responsive in that they were bred to pull carriages, tolerate road traffic, tolerate wild children and adverse situations. They are incredibly sweet and most are very hard workers.

But they are slow responders to stimulus in virtually every way (by design and generations of careful breeding), and when they do react they do so largely internally without accompanying physical reaction.

In addition, they are conformationally bred to pull, so are naturally heavy in front and not naturally laterally flexible.

What this adds up to is that they are terrific hobby horses, sound as a dollar physically (except for the strep infections which they can easily get in their feathers in a damp environment- absolute NIGHTMARE), and lovely mistake-tolerating mounts.

However, for dressage responsiveness and physical predisposition for the sport, I felt they were less than ideal. They ride like draft horses, which is pretty much what they are (draft cobs). They are quite difficult to train to canter.

That said, they have been breeding them gradually lighter, but I still think they are a far cry from dressage specialization. And for what you'd spend for one, I'd invest my money elsewhere.

Also, please note that you can buy truckloads of Gypsy Vanners in Europe at prices equivalent to average grade trail horses here. I know this from people who import them. So if you really want one, buy it overseas and pay to haul it over and get it trained. You'll still come up thousands of dollars ahead in most cases.

Spectrum.

ps. After working with these extremely sweet and big-hearted horses, I will never own a horse with feathers. You'd be amazed at what their poor legs go through under all that hair. And if anyone ever needs any tips on getting rid of feather ick, I can tell you exactly what does and doesn't work from extensive experience.

[allegro18]

There's only one problem with your last statement.

The Romance languages all came from the same root language as Hindi and Punjabi. It is possible, with all these languages, all of which arose from a common ancestor, to find SOME similarities and to find some bits and pieces that could back up ANY theory about ANYONE.

The idea that the 'Romance' languages came from Latin and Latin simply arose out of the sea is - fallacious.

In fact, it is generally accepted that isn't the case at all.

Latin is quite reliably traced to the same parent language as Hindi and Punjabi. .

There's a basic problem with THIS argument as well, when it follows your assertion that Romani is a romance language.

"Romance languages" is generally used to describe a class of languages that developed out of Latin, as in AFTER Latin. The "romance languages" did not exist before Latin. They developed directly OUT OF Latin, not any language that preceded Latin.

Certainly, no one should be surprised that Hindi, Punjabi, and Latin shared common linguistic ancestors. Don't all languages eventually lead back to the same ancestry, if you follow them far enough? However, just because two languages share ancestry a ways back in their history does not mean they fall into the same category now. So German and French have some common roots--I sure don't see anyone calling German a "romance language." Sorry, sometimes the logic only works in a single direction...

[Ghazzu]

There's only one problem with your last statement.


I have no problems with my statement. Sorry you do.

The fact remains that romance languages, by definition, are descended from Latin.
It matters not that both Romany and Latin have a common ancestor.

It's like saying that since humans and chimps have a common ancestor that humans are descended from chimps.



The idea that the 'Romance' languages came from Latin and Latin simply arose out of the sea is - fallacious.


I never said Latin "arose out of the sea".
That's your fantasy.
Perhaps you're confusing Latin with Aphrodite.

The dictionary definition of romance as it relates to languages, courtesy of American Heritage:

"Of, relating to, or being any of the languages that developed from Latin, including Italian, French, Portuguese, Romanian, and Spanish."


In fact, it is generally accepted that isn't the case at all.

Really? Most people don't believe Latin appeared from the Adriatic? Quelle suprise.


I do believe I was born in the wrong era.

Quite possibly.

[Pony Fixer]

There's quite a few things that slc has "mythbusted" for me that I was for sure thought were fact ;)

[spookhorse]

Well, not every researcher agrees about details of horse color inheritance. And much of what passes for gospel in that area, is, I'm afraid, more slanted toward marketing than science.

That said, what do you feel is wrong? What would you change? That statement is just too much of a teaser.

I'll bite...

At first glance, this mare appears to be Chestnut, but she is actually a Silver Bay. She is a basic Chestnut, but with a Silver modifier. This gives her the white mane and tail, which appear frosted and dark knees.

The Silver gene doesn't do a darn thing to chestnut. If a horse is chestnut, the Silver gene will make no visible difference, it's hidden. Silver only works on the black hair, it does not add the flaxen or the smoky legs to a chestnut. The horse is bay with a Silver gene modifying it.

For another:

This gorgeous mare has very tipical blue sabino markings. She will lighten with age. Sabino must not be confused with Blue Roan or Grey. They are all very different, genetically.

Looks like a grey tobiano to me, I don't see any sabino indicators at all.

Also, almost all of the horses listed as Tobiano actually have sabino indicators, as well (Except that above mare)

Most equine color genetic aficionados look to Philip Sponenburg. If anyone knows about horse color, it's him. Get his book :)

[tempichange]

ps. After working with these extremely sweet and big-hearted horses, I will never own a horse with feathers. You'd be amazed at what their poor legs go through under all that hair. And if anyone ever needs any tips on getting rid of feather ick, I can tell you exactly what does and doesn't work from extensive experience.

Anti bacterial dish soap and a pair of clippers.

[slc2]

No,, all languages do not share the same ancestors, unless y9u go back to a hypothetical point in time when the first person spoke. Even then, it is hard to make a case for say, some of the native american languages and English, having a common origin. Structural analysis as well as archaeology doesn't attest it very well.

However, there is a recognized group of languages called Indo European languages, that share origins, some more peripherally than others. There are languages in the same areas as Indo European languages that are not Indo European - such as Hungarian, Estonian and Basque.

Please note, I said some relate Romany to Romance languages like Romanian. Mallory suggests it came from India in the Middle Ages.

[Ghazzu]

Why does that old saw about attempting to educate swine in the polyphonic arts spring to mind here?

[allegro18]

Please note, I said some relate Romany to Romance languages like Romanian. Mallory suggests it came from India in the Middle Ages.

Umm, actually that's not what you said at all, but okay...

Like Ghazzu, my point was to demonstrate that sometimes logic works only in one direction, not both. A parrot and an iguana actually have shared ancestors somewhere way back, but that fact does not allow me to call the parrot a reptile or the iguana a bird. Can I say that they share some history? Absolutely. But I cannot claim that just because there is shared history that one is necessarily part of the same class as the other. It simply doesn't work that way.

Anyway, to return to the original topic, I'll admit that some of the horses I've seen marketed as Gypsy horses are cute, and that they'd likely make nice steady mounts, but I've not seen any that inspire real confidence that they'll be showing up the 'big boys' in the dressage arena. Certainly, there are horses that 'overachieve' for their breed or their physical build, but I wouldn't shell out big bucks for a Gypsy horse expecting to climb the dressage ranks. There are better-suited horses much more reasonably priced. That said, if someone really feels the need to own one, more power to them.

[Westlaw]

Back to these horses and what they can and can't do, apparently this one is a gelding colt and will be a nice stallion. http://www.elbriovanner.com/sale/chianti/chianti.htm

Typo? Owners don't know that geldings don't grow up to be stallions?

Or is there new medical technology to explain this? Or ancient magic?

[Sabine]

Back to these horses and what they can and can't do, apparently this one is a gelding colt and will be a nice stallion. http://www.elbriovanner.com/sale/chianti/chianti.htm

Typo? Owners don't know that geldings don't grow up to be stallions?

Or is there new medical technology to explain this? Or ancient magic?

Now that's a classic...LOL! I couldnt' believe it...!!!

[egontoast]

freudian slip?

It's also interesting how they like to use "Foundation Stock" instead of "Unknown" in the pedigrees.

[slc2]

"The 'Romany' language is a romance language, and there are many arguments about exactly how or when it came about, though some relate it to Romania and gypsies to Romania"

I couldn't figure out what you were so peeoh'd about, because I hadn't realized I'd written that. I meant to say, it is an 'Indo European language'. We were busy yesterday stemming the tides, and I didn't re-read it before I posted it.

"The Romany language is an Indo European language, and there are many arguments about exactly how or when it came about, though some relate it to Romania and gypsies to Romania."

That's what I meant to write.

The current idea is that the gypsies came out of India during the Middle Ages, and brought their language with them. That would make it an Indo European language, like Punjabi and Hindi*. And like all the slavic languages, germanic languages (incl english), greek, latin, etc.

The problem I have with that is that some genetic studies done on gypsies don't seem to validate that. I think it's possible though, that the mixed genetic picture is because people of other origins have joined up with them from time to time.

*There is some controversy over it, but currently, there are two main groups of Indian languages, these and the Dravidian languages like Tamil. Tamil is the oldest spoken language by many accounts.

[Equibrit]

Ditto - my last comment!

[Lancaster9]

This whole thing smacks of folk commercialization, like any project that takes so-called rustic or indiginous cultural artifacts, markets them to a wealthier class and then puts the original well out of reach to the financially less able originators. Doesn't matter if this happens through tourism, the art world, or equestrianism, it's still a kind of colonization. Appropriating someone else's culture and "improving" upon it for another group robs the first population of their rightful inheritance and any pride they may have had in the original. I hardly think any traveller family would give a golden butterfly as to how well their beloved critter could perform in a dressage arena, or any other 'Equestrian' competition for that matter. Start talking about how well your "gypsy" horse outpulls or outruns others and then maybe I'll listen. Or else find a different way to name and market your breed, one that doesn't capitalize on someone else's heritage! Whew... my first angry COTH rant. :o

[Equibrit]

The problem with that theory is that it is the self same "Gypsies" that are making the bucks in this enterprise. The same phenomena occurs within the antiques trade in England. As soon as an American buyer sets foot on British turf the drums start banging, and the price tickets are amended!
The buyers only have themselves to blame for swallowing all that poppycock.

[slc2]

"ditto"

you're out of the will.:winkgrin:

[slc2]

There are a number of non-saddle horse breeds around that will never do more than passably well in the dressage ring, mostly because dressage is a sport which requires characteristics of saddle horses ie riding type horses. People still like them and they still show them in dressage. And if they are well schooled they will still score adequately and people will still have fun with them. Proving, i suppose, that 'dressage is for all horses' or more accurately, you can ride dressage on just about any horse.

But also proving that it isn't necessary to win all the time to have fun. I have a problem with the gypsy horse owners coming here and suggesting that to prove their horses are nice they have to win. From my pov,that's a wierd mentality to take when selling a spotted small drafty cob. Here is a nice horse with a nice temperament. Too, there are few people who buy 50,000 $ or even $10,000 dollar horses. if they sold for 2000 dollars or 5000 dollars, saddle broke and broke to drive, they'd probably take over the entire western world.

Lots of people have 'less than ideal' horses. I've never had such perfect horses and have always made do with what I had and done pretty well considering. But I haven't paid 50,000 dollars for them, either. Nor was winning foremost in my mind.

I think though, Equibrit, you are wrong in the statement that the gypsies themselves are getting the majority of that pot'o'gold. I think most of the profit is made after the first sale, and I don't think most of those first sales are from the gypsies; I think that's the first misconception about the breed, that gypsies own the majority of horses being bought from the british isles and ireland.

[Lancaster9]

The problem with that theory is that it is the self same "Gypsies" that are making the bucks in this enterprise. The same phenomena occurs within the antiques trade in England. As soon as an American buyer sets foot on British turf the drums start banging, and the price tickets are amended!
The buyers only have themselves to blame for swallowing all that poppycock.

But that's exactly the generalization that gets made with any kind of cultural colonialism. While it's true for a small number, it's not true for the whole population, and the whole phenomenon couldn't occur without some heavy publicity on the part of those buying and promoting the product in the wealthier locale. Fine for the buyers and sellers, but what about those who have no say in what's happening to their culture? Not everyone is always keen to see their traditions depicted as quaint or mysterious, and certainly not happy to be financially prohibited from something that used to be like water or air.

[Equibrit]

Fine for the buyers and sellers, but what about those who have no say in what's happening to their culture? Not everyone is always keen to see their traditions depicted as quaint or mysterious, and certainly not happy to be financially prohibited from something that used to be like water or air.


The twaddle that is sold with these horses is NOT their culture, it's part of what they are selling you. Outsiders are not permitted IN. They only sell you what they don't want. In the wider sense, they are selling you a crock and you're swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

[egontoast]

As soon as an American buyer sets foot on British turf the drums start banging, and the price tickets are amended!

Hehe. Same can be said of a few European wb sales stables. No lie.

[Ghazzu]

I couldn't figure out what you were so peeoh'd about, because I hadn't realized I'd written that.


Don't know who "you" refers to, but I wasn't "peeoh'd".
I merely pointed out that you were wrong.


I meant to say, it is an 'Indo European language'.


Sure you did.
You do realize that you are making yourself look silly here.
Better would be to just admit you were wrong.


That's what I meant to write.
Uh huh. Sure. Whatever you say...

[slc2]

No, I made a mistake. People do that all the time. But I am not really sure why it's so important to you - that's a little odd.

[Lancaster9]

The twaddle that is sold with these horses is NOT their culture, it's part of what they are selling you. Outsiders are not permitted IN. They only sell you what they don't want. In the wider sense, they are selling you a crock and you're swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

I'm confused.... who are YOU and who are THEY? I guess that's the point I was trying to make. I think we're on the same page, but what I was really trying to point out is that those who are selling are NOT representative of the whole (of the "inside"), depsite their claims. Sadly, it's the sellers' voices that are heard around the world. Sigh...

[Equibrit]

THEY being the Gypsy/Travellers - YOU being the mugs.

[sm]

Congrats OP!

I think the OP was noteworthy and good to mention that a non-dressage bred horse can still do well. It's one of the few things that saves dressage from morphing into a gaited class for particular registries only.

[Ghazzu]

It's one of the few things that saves dressage from morphing into a gaited class for particular registries only.

You mean it isn't? :D

[J Lav]

Once again I have fallen off my chair in shock at the price of that gelding/colt in the link. $22,500 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Please someone tell me that they don't seriously sell for that money over there!!

I can find about 30 or so horses as good as that within a couple of miles of my house and would not have to pay more than £300 ($600ish) each at the most for yearlings!!

Someone is making some major dough here!!

Coloured horses of all types are exceptionally popular in the UK at the moment and tend to be over priced, but nowhere near that sort of money, even the highly sucessful ones.

[SillyHorse]

But if that's really a geldingcolt, he's worth a huckuva lot, don't you think?

[Sandy M]

But if that's really a geldingcolt, he's worth a huckuva lot, don't you think?

ROFLOL. My racebred Appy gelding - typical pencil neck (but not ewe) when an undeveloped 4 year old - developed quite a nice neck as he matured and with dressage work. He was tied to the trailer one day at a show, and a couple came up, admired him, complimented me on his performance, lovely color, etc. and offered to buy him for around $15K (I paid $2K for him). He was only doing 1st level at the time. I was stunned and said, sort of "Thanks but no thanks...." They were very sad. Said they really wanted him for their breeding program. HUH!?!?!? Well, apparently they just saw that neck and figured he was a stallion. ROFLOL!!!! I told them that if they COULD breed him, we both stood to make a LOT of money.

[LizzieD]

I hope most here, will understand that it is a relative few, who subscribe to the myth, magic and romance which some seem to like to put forward on their websites.
I am webmaster of a few Gypsy Horse websites and if one of my clients asks me to write a lot of myth and fluffery - they can find a new webmaster. On our own site, I have tried to give the facts as truthfully as I possibly am able. This has not made me very popular with certain people in the breed (mostly those who are followers of certain high-marketers) and I have kept their very damning emails.
I tend to think, some of it stems from the fact they must now be embarrassed, at having spent huge amounts of money with "certain" people, when they could have purchased a similar or better horse, for less than half the price, and just don't want to admit it.
Who knows. As in all breeds, there are people who just follow a few whom they "think" to be big wheels, wish to be associated with them, or have in lots of cases, been sold a bill of goods and carry the silliness along. Some buyers will flock to those who seem to have a great many horses, as though the number equals knowledge or quality of stock.
There is currently, a great deal made of the "Certification" of some horses.
It is an absolutely ridiculous concept, but there are indeed a few who have bought into it.
Hopefully one day, all this will stop and people will not spend their time following like sheep, a stupid (and money-making for some) advertising gimmick.
Lizzie

[LizzieD]

Spookhorse said..
At first glance, this mare appears to be Chestnut, but she is actually a Silver Bay. She is a basic Chestnut, but with a Silver modifier. This gives her the white mane and tail, which appear frosted and dark knees.

The Silver gene doesn't do a darn thing to chestnut. If a horse is chestnut, the Silver gene will make no visible difference, it's hidden. Silver only works on the black hair, it does not add the flaxen or the smoky legs to a chestnut. The horse is bay with a Silver gene modifying it.

As you see I made a typo there, when I said she is a basic Chestnut. Obviously, that should have read "Bay" and as you see, I did indeed say she was actually a Silver Bay. I'll go and correct that in a bit.

To touch on something a few have brought up, about none of us actually doing anything to help the Gypsy community in the UK. Again not true. Actually one breeder here who has spent a great deal of time with the Travellers and Rom, has written a book, which has now been distributed back into the gypsy classrooms for the Gypsy Literacy Program and all proceeds of outside sales, donated. At least two colts a year are raffled and proceeds going to various groups. Two other books at least are in the works, with proceeds going to help.
Several horses have been donated to become mounts for the handicapped and at least one was donated to become a mount for a childrens vaulting programme here in the US.
I am unable personally to donate monies, but have spent the last three years at least, helping some Gypsy families with their Genealogy research, since as you can imagine, when travelling in the past, many families have completely lost touch with other family members. There have been others who do their bit to help also, but most do not broadcast what they do.
Are there some who should help and don't? Absolutely!
I imagine many of you here, donate your time and maybe an occasional horse, to a worthy cause and probably feel as I do, that most don't do enough, or ever even bother.
Lizzie

[Sportpony chic]

Okay I quit reading about a few pages back but wanted to comment since I was at this show. This was my first show in 10 yrs and my first outing with my new young horse. I was also competing at training level only in the open division. All I can say is that I scored a 76.6 and still got beat! I always figured with that kind of score I would have a championship lol.
Whats funny is that my horse hated this pony. I actually love ponies but I had problems in warm up because my guy hated this one. I had a hard time getting away from him. Maybe it was because he was a stallion, I don't know but my boy was pretty freaked about it. Maybe he's one of those stuck up warmbloods! (maybe he doesn't know he was bred in Tn, I won't tell him he wasn't imported) Anyways, I thought it was funny.
As far as mobs of people, I think all of us had horse park visitors that wanted to see and pet our horses especially walking past the snack shack.
Congratulations to the owner though. I think it is huge thing for any young horse to come to the horse park of all places and behave well. Its atleast a good test of character.

[slc2]

so you didn't really think the gypsy horse specifically was mobbed by adoring fans and had to make an alternate route to escape the gypsy groupies?

[LizzieD]

I don't know about being "mobbed" but having attended a lot of Equine Affaires, I must say that we do tend to attract a crowd most often.

Equibrit said

The colour of these horses is either piebald or skewbald.

Sorry Equibrit, not true. As in all breeds, many others went into their makeup and the Gypsy Horse is no different. I have studied the inheritance of coat colour, in dogs and horses for the last 40 years, and it is my opinion, that the spotted or Tobiano patterns originated with the old Shires. Spotted Shires were well known, until in the mid 1800's, when only the solids were allowed. These horses were used extensively by the Gypsies years ago, when they first moved to the heavy living caravans and off the flat carts on which they travelled previously.The Sabino gene most surely arrived in the mix, from the Clydedales.
The Gypsy Horse can found found in almost all colours today. I have seen photos taken in the 1920's to 50's, of Gypsies with their herds and many colours can be seen. Go to Appleby this week and you will see something of every colour, although certainly one will see more black and white tobiano than anything else. My daughter flew to Appleby yesterday, so should have some good reports.

I would venture to say, that the majority of the horses I have on the little webshots album, have had their colour verified by UCDavis. A few use other Universities and some use Animal Genetics, but almost all of us "do" these days, colour-verify our horses, since a given horse can appear quite differently, from that which his colour tests. It's also a good way to find out if a horse is homozygous - or not, for some patterns and colour, if such things are important to the breeder. Also a way of discovering the percentages of possible colours a given breeding might produce.
Recently, tests for some of the odd colours have been discovered and no doubt in the future, more will be added. Colour testing, can also go a little way, into keeping people honest about the background of their horses.
The little Pearl Blagdon filly for example, tested...
Black. Ee. Agouti. aa. Sabino. nn. Cream. Cr/cr. Pearl. N/Prl.
Those of you versed in colour genetics, will understand what all that means. UCDavis has only recently discovered (October 2006) and named, the Pearl gene (a dilution activated by cream) While I'm personally not a fan of the colour, the actual findings interest me. The colour when first discovered, was actually called Apricot. Interestingly, many of the identified colours we know today are often named differently from University to University.

Spectrum brought up the problems associated with feather. In the last four years, I have written in great detail, about Chronic Progressive Lymphedema. Everyone with a horse - even those with very little feather, should know about this. Two lady Vets in England, who deal with this on a daily basis, wrote and thanked me for making it so public. One has also writen occasionally with updates.
If left untreated, it eventually can kill an animal but only after years of dreadful suffering. I try to disuade anyone from purchasing a feathered horse, if they are not willing to spend the time it takes, to look after what's under feather, constantly.

I think the gelding/colt thing was probably a typo. I'm sure we all make them. But would I personally pay that much money for a colt? Absolutely not.
Lizzie

[kelliope]

I can't help but notice the discrepancy between the responses on this thread and the ones on the STB thread (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=100540). Can anyone explain why two different threads with two "off-breed" posters being happy about a show experience got such different responses? I am not being snarky - I am honestly curious. I ride an off-breed myself and worry a bit about people thinking negative things about me or my horse because of that.

BTW, congratulations to both posters! I am happy for anyone's success at a show - they can be quite stressful!!!!

[cuatx55]

Well, from what I saw the STB post didn't have a "holier than thou" tone to it, it's easier to be happy for someone when they remove the ego. Doesn't metter what kind of horse they are talking about to me-traditional vs non-traditaonal.

I own an arabian and have gotten a lot of help on here when I asked a question last Dec. In the past Much of the "breed issue" was coming from my insecurity at not having a fancy horse. I don't need to get defensive since I know what I have, and I respect that others want to ride different horses. It helped to get my trainer's honest opinion to see if I was trying to do the impossible.

[kelliope]

Well, I went back and re-read the OP's post and I guess I do see where there could be some perceived ego. I didn't really notice it at first, but now that I have re-read it...

OK, I did notice this thread going on for such a long time and I was just wondering if I was missing something. Not sure if the OP meant to or not but I think I see what you are talking about now.

I get a bit worried because my mom has a terrible habit of going on and on about warmbloods vs. other breeds and it makes me very uncomfortable. I like ALL breeds and don't want to be pegged as one of those us vs. them people. (Actually she likes all breeds too which makes it all the more odd that she would do that...)

[Sandy M]

Sorry Equibrit, not true.

Well, yes they are either piebald or skewbald.

Nice explanation re patterns, etc., but my understanding was "piebald" and "skewbald" are simply color references: Piebald is "black & white" and "Skewbald" is any other color and white. Nothing to do with breed or pattern (tobiano/overo/tovero) or homozygosity or dilutes. just B&W or othercolor X W in a pinto pattern. A horse could be a piebald tobiano (B&W) or a skewbald overo (Chestnurt & white, etc.) or vice versa.

[Dazednconfused]

Well, not all of them are pinto of any kind. There appear to be quite a few that are solid colored.

[Sandy M]

Well, not all of them are pinto of any kind. There appear to be quite a few that are solid colored.

True, which is very interesting, since the first time I saw one, the breeder heavily promoted that they were ALLL Black and white. Since I'm not interested in mini-hairy-drafts, I couldn't care less, but now I do notice dusty palominos, etc. Now, they are promoting even "uncolored" cobs. LOL I certainly could go the British Isles, buy one, and ship it back for less than US breeders are asking for a weanling, if I wanted such a beastie.

[belambi]

correct. they are either piebald, skewbald or solid.These refer to colour. not pattern.

interesting to note that it is where the term for a 'baldy' face comes from!

[Spectrum]

Anti bacterial dish soap and a pair of clippers.

HAHA... try telling that to a Gypsy owner. Clipping wasn't an option, particularly on a breeding stallion in an active marketing program. This wasn't my call, I was just the staff.

Spectrum.

[Spectrum]

I don't know about being "mobbed" but having attended a lot of Equine Affaires, I must say that we do tend to attract a crowd most often.

Equibrit said



Spectrum brought up the problems associated with feather. In the last four years, I have written in great detail, about Chronic Progressive Lymphedema. Everyone with a horse - even those with very little feather, should know about this. Two lady Vets in England, who deal with this on a daily basis, wrote and thanked me for making it so public. One has also writen occasionally with updates.
If left untreated, it eventually can kill an animal but only after years of dreadful suffering. I try to disuade anyone from purchasing a feathered horse, if they are not willing to spend the time it takes, to look after what's under feather, constantly.


Lizzie

Ugh, this sounds very much like what one of the stallions had. It was quite advanced by the time I was on the scene, and the horse had what seemed to be large lumpy scars under his feathers from the long-term infection. Through the DAILY (and sometimes twice daily) application of a non-staining iodine shampoo followed up with a strong, drying, anti-microbial spray up underneath the feathers, I managed to get it under control and get most of it at least closed up and healed (it was nasty and weeping in several locations). But it literally took me a month to kick it, and that was after attempting to use silver sulphadiazine (sp?) and a whole other host of ointments on it first.

Finally, I ignored the instructions I was getting from everyone (they weren't working) and bought the harsh, non-staining shampoo and spray because I wanted to get it thoroughly dried out under there. I felt the ointments only kept the region moist and when the horse itched off the ointment it was primed for more infestation. The benefit of the anti-microbial spray on the newly-shampooed feathers was that it coated ALL the hair with anti-microbial and when the feathers dried the entire region was clean, rather than just the sores themselves.

We had a couple tiny breakouts at various times with the other stallions (hot climate with high humidity- hard to prevent) but by immediately treating it this way I kept those horses from getting infested like the other was.

It was quite gross, and not something I'll ever do again if I can help it.

I'm quite sure the horses didn't enjoy it either. The one with the scars chewed on himself incessantly until we got it cleared up.

Spectrum.

[fargaloo]

Hey Kelliope,

sorry for derailing this a bit (if you can derail a thread that has gone on this many pages), but I noticed the line of verse in your signature... it reminds me greatly of a poem by Lord Byron:

Near this spot
Are deposited the remains of one
Who possessed beauty without vanity,
Strength without insolence,
Courage without ferocity,
And all the virtues of man without his vices.
This praise, which would be unmeaning
Flattery if inscribed over human ashes,
Is but a just tribute to the memory of
Boatswain, a dog,
Who was born at Newfoundland, May 1803,
And died at Newstead Abbey, Nov. 18, 1808.

(I've always loved this poem and just like to bring it up when I can...)

carry on!

[lindac]

Someone asked to see a picture of the OP pony. Here he is!

http://www.fullcircledressage.com/photos/blarney2.gif

[kelliope]

fargaloo, that is a great poem! Brought a tear to my eye - so true of our dogs.

lindac, thanks for posting the photo. He is a very cute little guy in my opinion! :) His canter picture is my favorite - I think he looks pretty darn good!

[cuatx55]

Cute little horse, looks a lot like the spotted saddle horse mare I used to ride.